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[d32f123]

frudi wrote...

MidnightRaith wrote...

...some of the more subtle hints seem to point to the idea that Liara believes in Athame, rather than the mainstream religion.

Well, this whole discussion started because Liara's been heard to refer to the 'Goddess', even beyond just the usual 'Goddess!' or 'By the Goddess!' exclamations. Since the Goddess in question is in fact Athame, then if these references are to mean she holds some religious beliefs, she would obviously believe in Athame.

It's hard to say though if Athame worshipers still literally believe the Goddess to be an actual deity, even harder still how their views of her may compare to the human monotheistic views of god. I got the feeling that Athame worshipers considered her more of a protector of the asari, not as an omnipotent and omniscient deity typical of human monotheistic religions.

Now thinking back to the mission on Thessia, Liara was certainly shocked to learn the truth abouth Athame, but she hardly seemed like a deeply religious person who's faith has just been shocked to the core. She seemed more concerned about the implications for asari society and psyche. I would take that as an indication that she's not likely deeply religious and after finding out the truth about Athame she would probably be rational enough about it to rethink even those beliefs she may have had.

Nice point

[Sunnie]

frudi wrote...

TheMarshal wrote...

Sunnie22 wrote...

liesandpropaganda wrote...

Next on today's agenda: determining the chemical formula of asari sweat

It's similar to Irish Whiskey!

Do Asari actually sweat though?

That's... a good point.  Not all animals sweat.  Or is that get sunburnt?  Would asari be able to get sunburnt?  Would their skin turn purple?

Well, asari are worm-blooded, so they do have to regulate their body temperature one way or another. Mammals cool off by sweating and asari don't appear to have any other obvious mechanism of cooling off, so I would guess that they do indeed sweat.

Hm, too bad their scalp aren't (more) flexible... then we could imagine they flap them around to cool off, kind of like elephants flap their ears (and yes, I know this is the second time today that something about asari is being compared to elephants )

While you are correct about mammalian species, don't forget that this is a fictitious species based in a lot of space magic. For all we know, we all could be completely wrong about, well, everything!

[MidnightRaith]

frudi wrote...

MidnightRaith wrote...

...some of the more subtle hints seem to point to the idea that Liara believes in Athame, rather than the mainstream religion.

Well, this whole discussion started because Liara's been heard to refer to the 'Goddess', even beyond just the usual 'Goddess!' or 'By the Goddess!' exclamations. Since the Goddess in question is in fact Athame, then if these references are to mean she holds some religious beliefs, she would obviously believe in Athame.

It's hard to say though if Athame worshipers still literally believe the Goddess to be an actual deity, even harder still how their views of her may compare to the human monotheistic views of god. I got the feeling that Athame worshipers considered her more of a protector of the asari, not as an omnipotent and omniscient deity typical of human monotheistic religions.

Now thinking back to the mission on Thessia, Liara was certainly shocked to learn the truth abouth Athame, but she hardly seemed like a deeply religious person who's faith has just been shocked to the core. She seemed more concerned about the implications for asari society and psyche. I would take that as an indication that she's not likely deeply religious and after finding out the truth about Athame she would probably be rational enough about it to rethink even those beliefs she may have had.

Religion in Mass Effect tends to get on my nerves. It almost seems like the aliens' religions were "right" and the human ones, besides buddhism, were so wrong that many of them collapsed. IIRC.  Did Bioware not have anyone that worked for them that knew how their religion actually viewed the issue? Anyway, Athame was described as having three forms, not unlike God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Whether she is similar in practice to God is not known. I wouldn't doubt that she isn't too similar to human monotheistic figures considering that Asari are aliens and some of their culture could easily be alien to us.

As far as Liara goes, I think that she believed, but wasn't too into it. Perhaps she left that to her mother and devoted more of her time to finding out what happened to the Protheans. It is difficult, though to take her reaction to Athame's reveal as her actual reaction. It was so poorly placed in that it was revealed during a time of disaster, that I don't really think she gave much though to it. I don't doubt that she could rethink her belief in Athame though.

[Aristobulus500]

Again, this entire discussion to me, drives home that they really, really, really needed more missions on Thessia like Rannoch and Tuchanka got. We really don't know enough about the Asari talk about this in depth enough, and that's a damn shame. It's criminal.

[Ajosraa]

frudi wrote...

TheMarshal wrote...

Sunnie22 wrote...

liesandpropaganda wrote...

Next on today's agenda: determining the chemical formula of asari sweat

It's similar to Irish Whiskey!

Do Asari actually sweat though?

That's... a good point.  Not all animals sweat.  Or is that get sunburnt?  Would asari be able to get sunburnt?  Would their skin turn purple?

Not all animals sweat, but all warm-blooded animals do have to regulate their internal temperature one way or another. Most mammals cool off by sweating, though not all of them have sweat glands all over their bodies. Asari though don't seem to have an obvious alternative mechanism of cooling off, so I would guess they do indeed sweat, though maybe not in all the same areas as humans.

Hm, it's too bad their scalp crests aren't more flexible... then we could imagine asari flapping them to cool off, kind of like elephants flap their ears (yeah, I know, here we go again comparing something asari to elephants...)

Ive always imagined that Asari head crests would help to provide additional surface area to act as a cooling mechanism, like how human ears help to cool blood. Also, the channels inbetween each ridge could act to channel sweat and thus provide more cooling. I guess the channels could also keep the sweat out of their eyes by channeling it to the rear of their head, since they dont have hairy eyebrows.

[Brooks Mac]

Anywheres i can go to see all of Neeh's amazing work? I've seen what you liaralovers have posted and im afraid im missing out!

[Ajosraa]

Neeh's Stuff:

http://neehs.deviantart.com/

Enjoy:)

[DarkCloudd]

Quick question if I may, is there any dialog differences between LotSB played pre and post suicide mission and what is everyones preference to play it in the ME2 storyline? Lol @ Ajosraa now I have this terrible mental picture of an Asari with this huge bushy uni-brow thanks...

[Brooks Mac]

Thankya Ajosraa!

[yesikareyes]

 Hey guys! Found this nice art!

[MidnightRaith]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

Again, this entire discussion to me, drives home that they really, really, really needed more missions on Thessia like Rannoch and Tuchanka got. We really don't know enough about the Asari talk about this in depth enough, and that's a damn shame. It's criminal.

I wonder why we were even taken to Thessia by the plot. It had nothing of value there besides the beacon, which was then hi-jacked by Kai Leng.  Huzzah, we get to see Liara mourn over her people. But what does that mean for the overall plot? Nothing. Considering the fact that you don't even get the information you wanted in the first place, and Thessia seems like a giant waste of time and effectively kicked the asari in the nads as a species. I get that you can't win them all, and we still could have had Leng steal the information, but why not stay on Thessia and attempt to help the asari? Or leave Thessia for dead, and continue to fight with the asari on other planets? I don't think it was necessary to cut the asari from the war. Doesn't make much sense. For the species that is widely considered to be the best mediators in the galaxy, they sure kept to themselves. Everyone else either got their issues resolved, or acted in a manner that fit with their known tropes. The asari?  Had the ending not have been so terrible, I would push for some Asari DLC. They did not get the focus they deserved in any way.

[Ajosraa]

DarkCloudd wrote...

Quick question if I may, is there any dialog differences between LotSB played pre and post suicide mission and what is everyones preference to play it in the ME2 storyline? Lol @ Ajosraa now I have this terrible mental picture of an Asari with this huge bushy uni-brow thanks...

lol..now thats a funny thought indeed

Like that one guy who had the cigar and would say something like "say the secret woid and the ducks come down" but only as an Asari... ;P

Modifié par Ajosraa, 29 avril 2012 - 03:41 .

[adneate]

Liara actually outlined the Asari "religious" beliefs in ME1, the Athame thing is a cultural relic she herself says few actually follow it though they use the expression "Goddess" in a fairly empty way simply because it was important at one point in their past. Present Asari beliefs, of which Liara would be part of, is more philisophical in nature and based on the Galactic community the Asari founded as well as their unique ability to bond with any race. They take a more philisophical view of the galaxy, as a great link of species all joined together by a common thread. It's probably what motivates some Asari to seek non-Asari partners even though their physical attaction to them would be minor at best. Liara uses the terminology when she talks about joining with Shepard in ME1, the two of them would transcend and be linked in the deepest way possible their very essence shared.

Their "Religion" is less the organized church and charity deal and more along the line of religions found in the East, where the whole God and afterlife thing isn't as central to the faith.

[MidnightRaith]

frudi wrote...

MidnightRaith wrote...

Religion in Mass Effect tends to get on my nerves. It almost seems like the aliens' religions were "right" and the human ones, besides buddhism, were so wrong that many of them collapsed. IIRC.  Did Bioware not have anyone that worked for them that knew how their religion actually viewed the issue? Anyway, Athame was described as having three forms, not unlike God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Whether she is similar in practice to God is not known. I wouldn't doubt that she isn't too similar to human monotheistic figures considering that Asari are aliens and some of their culture could easily be alien to us.

As far as Liara goes, I think that she believed, but wasn't too into it. Perhaps she left that to her mother and devoted more of her time to finding out what happened to the Protheans. It is difficult, though to take her reaction to Athame's reveal as her actual reaction. It was so poorly placed in that it was revealed during a time of disaster, that I don't really think she gave much though to it. I don't doubt that she could rethink her belief in Athame though.

To be honest, as an agnostic atheist, I can't really relate to the 'right' or 'wrong' qualification when it comes to religions. I'm not trying to start a religious argument, just trying to explain why it's hard for me to really understand your objection to the portrayal of religions in ME.

I would like to remind you though of the codex entry on asari religion:

Siari became popular after the asari left their homeworld and discovered their ability to "meld" with nearly any form of life. This ability is seen as proof that all life is fundamentally similar. Siari priestesses see their role as promoting unity between the disparate shards of the universe's awareness.
Before the rise of siari pantheism, asari religions were as diverse as their political opinions.

Obviously asari religions suffered a similar upheaval after they discovered space flight and encountered other species. I think a certain transformation of belief systems is probably to be expected after such impactful events; I would guess this is the idea that Bioware were trying to convey, not pass judgement on validity of certain religions.

There is no right and wrong, which is why I put right in quotations. I'm not going to pretend to know how other religions view the matter, but Christianity would not become void in the face of alien existence. It's kind of silly that Bioware would think so.

On the matter of the Siari codex, that doesn't actually disprove their original religions at all. It's probably why the belief in Athame is still around. It just states that they discovered the ability to meld with any species and thus created a new religion. Not unlike the creation of Christianity itself. There was no religious upheaval, merely the creation of a popular religion. Since the melding with other species is a fact, it has a pretty strong basis and would probably seem very appealing to asari that want a real basis to their beliefs instead of believing in a figure they would only come to know in their texts or stories or whatever media they use. However, Siari does not disprove anything. Asari that still believe on faith can continue to do so.

A transformation in religious beliefs is to be expected yes. In the Christianity's case, I would think that people would come to the conclusion that we aren't God's only sentient creation. This happens even in the face of events that are occurring today. Like, for instance, there are gay Christians. I believe the Codex states that many religions faced collapse after the discovery of the Prothean ruins. Kind of sounds like they are either questioning the validity of certain religions, or DidNotDoTheResearch.

[TheMarshal]

If nothing else, (human) religion has proven resilient in the light of new data. Christianity and the idea that only those who have been baptized can go to heaven didn't falter much in the face of discovering that there are entire continents of people who've never heard of Christianity. I imagine something similar would have happened with the idea that Earth isn't God's only plaything.

[adneate]

MidnightRaith wrote...
I believe the Codex states that many religions faced collapse after the discovery of the Prothean ruins. Kind of sounds like they are either questioning the validity of certain religions, or DidNotDoTheResearch.

Historically religious beliefs collapsing isn't a new concept, many of the Polytheistic religions of the world were unable to survive the onslaught of monotheistic religions. Society changed and those old belief structures proved incompatible with where civilization was developing. I'm sure if you told an Ancient Greek that centuries from now nobody would worship Zeus or any of the Gods of the pantheon they'd find it just as impossible as someone telling us similar things today about the religions of our time.

[pacer90]

I thought them saying that religion was sort of done away with was to make Ashley's believe more pronounced.

[MidnightRaith]

adneate wrote...

MidnightRaith wrote...
I believe the Codex states that many religions faced collapse after the discovery of the Prothean ruins. Kind of sounds like they are either questioning the validity of certain religions, or DidNotDoTheResearch.

Historically religious beliefs collapsing isn't a new concept, many of the Polytheistic religions of the world were unable to survive the onslaught of monotheistic religions. Society changed and those old belief structures proved incompatible with where civilization was developing. I'm sure if you told an Ancient Greek that centuries from now nobody would worship Zeus or any of the Gods of the pantheon they'd find it just as impossible as someone telling us similar things today about the religions of our time.

I don't think this example really fits the concept though. Monotheistic religions directly contradict polytheistic ones. This is not true for aliens. I believe my Lutheran pastor friend said it best.

God is the ultimate alien.

The Bible never addresses alien life, however it would be illogical to think that Christianity would collapse if you consider the above statement. I'm very certain that the Vatican would be able to think of this if they have not already done so and you better believe that the Vatican would have something to say if alien life was ever discovered. I know that many Christian religions don't care much for the Vatican or the Pope, but hypothetically, if the Vatican is able to rally us, then it could stand to reason that less organized christian belief systems would try the to do so as well.  There wouldn't be the widespread panic that the codex implies. As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, we are organized to the extent that information and reassurance could reach people very quickly. We have Catholic scholars today that follow the evolution of science closely and even agree with scientists on merits of evolution itself and how old the earth really is. There are those in the Vatican that believe the earth is only 2000 years old despite science proving otherwise, yes. However, there are also those in the Church that accept what science has told us and has adapted our theology to address this. I'm rusty on the specifics but essentially, God's six days of creation could have quite feasibly taken significantly longer than "six days."

The point I'm trying to make here is that science has already challenged Christianity. There seems to be a misconception that Christianity is not adaptable. You've even said that polytheistic religions proved incompatible with the societies that were developing at the time. However, here we are in the 20th and 21st century debating the merits of how old the earth is and evolution. Two topics that appear to directly contradict Christianity's core beliefs, creation and life. However, we have adapted and found ways to marry science and religion together in these matters. When you take something scientific like the existence of life off of earth, which is not even addressed in Christian theology, then I doubt that would be the thing that made it collapse. I don't even think we'd have to try hard to incorporate that knowledge in our belief system.

[MidnightRaith]

frudi wrote...

I'd love to continue this discussion right now, but it's 7:20 in the morning here and I've been up all night. Got to get a couple hours of sleep now...

 Ah, you need to sleep! I hope I haven't kept you up with my posts, considering I seemed to have brought the discussion to religion, a forum no-no.... (Bad, Raith....) Try not to dream about how earth reacts to aliens, I'd expect it wouldn't be pleasant.

[Aristobulus500]

MidnightRaith wrote...
I wonder why we were even taken to Thessia by the plot. It had nothing of value there besides the beacon, which was then hi-jacked by Kai Leng.  Huzzah, we get to see Liara mourn over her people. But what does that mean for the overall plot? Nothing. Considering the fact that you don't even get the information you wanted in the first place, and Thessia seems like a giant waste of time and effectively kicked the asari in the nads as a species. I get that you can't win them all, and we still could have had Leng steal the information, but why not stay on Thessia and attempt to help the asari? Or leave Thessia for dead, and continue to fight with the asari on other planets? I don't think it was necessary to cut the asari from the war. Doesn't make much sense. For the species that is widely considered to be the best mediators in the galaxy, they sure kept to themselves. Everyone else either got their issues resolved, or acted in a manner that fit with their known tropes. The asari?  Had the ending not have been so terrible, I would push for some Asari DLC. They did not get the focus they deserved in any way.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, I'm glad we at least got to land on Thessia, and I finally - finally, after 2.8 games, got to at least see it from the ground level. But as I've said before, the entire Thessia/Asari segment is completely shoehorned in as a "oh well I guess we gotta do something with the Asari" and we get literally a single mission.

A single mission! It might as well have been an n7 mission. It's completely disconnected from anything else too, short of the beacon, which is ****ing garbage and also just shoehorned in and makes no sense, both in how it works, and what it means for the Asari.

I'm really mad they did this **** to the Asari. The Asari! The top race, the race that has had a ton of hype and buildup over 3 games. The race with a planet called "the jewel of the galaxy", and the race to which the character people are referring to as Bioware's "Golden Girl" belongs to - this race gets absolutely hosed and **** on. It's not just that bad things happen to them, but they are almost completely irrelevant to the plot and anything that goes on. The Asari don't even show up at the summit! They might've wanted to make me mad at the Asari with that, but like Kai Leng and the ending, and the kid, it made me mad at the writers instead, because it doesn't make sense. There's no real bad blood there, it's all focused at the Turians/Salarians, the Asari are just not liked by association, but if things could be worked between the Krogan and the Turians/Salarians, the Asari would definitely be okay. And they are the mediators of the galaxy! Incredibly out of character there.

Ugh, how they handled the Asari after so much build up just leaves a horrible taste in my mouth.

adneate wrote...
Liara actually outlined the Asari
"religious" beliefs in ME1, the Athame thing is a cultural relic she
herself says few actually follow it though they use the expression
"Goddess" in a fairly empty way simply because it was important at one
point in their past. Present Asari beliefs, of which Liara would be part
of, is more philisophical in nature and based on the Galactic community
the Asari founded as well as their unique ability to bond with any
race. They take a more philisophical view of the galaxy, as a great link
of species all joined together by a common thread. It's probably what
motivates some Asari to seek non-Asari partners even though their
physical attaction to them would be minor at best. Liara uses the
terminology when she talks about joining with Shepard in ME1, the two of
them would transcend and be linked in the deepest way possible their
very essence shared.

Their "Religion" is less the organized
church and charity deal and more along the line of religions found in
the East, where the whole God and afterlife thing isn't as central to
the faith.

Yeah, you've covered it extremely well. I don't have much to add, because you outlined their religion/philosophy so well, I'm just gonna say that I find it really interesting and hearing about their religious/philosophical beliefs and how it's a mix of the two. I think their beliefs are also particularly alien and something that makes them stand out.

Really, really would've liked to get more missions on Thessia to see them and their beliefs fleshed out. It shouldn't be this hard to say what exactly Liara believes.

MidnightRaith wrote...
 Ah,
you need to sleep! I hope I haven't kept you up with my posts,
considering I seemed to have brought the discussion to religion, a forum
no-no.... (Bad, Raith....) Try not to dream about how earth reacts to
aliens, I'd expect it wouldn't be pleasant.

I'd like to think humanity would respond well to a race like the Asari. Or at least, that there'd be a split between the people that do and the people that don't, and the Asari would recognize that and do something similar to the Hanar with the Drell, and basically uplift the part of humanity that isn't hostile, leaving the rest behind.

Modifié par Aristobulus500, 29 avril 2012 - 05:36 .

[MidnightRaith]

Writing in ME3 took a very noticable drop in quality. I'm not saying that the majority of it isn't good, but when you compare it to the previous games, there is something to be desired in many parts. Perhaps this is the fallout from Drew leaving....

I need to play ME2 again, because I don't remember much about how the Asari uplift species. Gotta say though, if they existed and tried to do so now, I would definitely be among those that were friendly towards them. Who wouldn't be? They're so nice....