56469 réponses à ce sujet

[DOsquareZER]

who cares if she changed her views on aliens, everyone thought she deserved death and foolishly killed her on virmire for being an unforgivable ''racist''. ^.o

[TheCrimsonSpire]

IliyaMoroumetz wrote...

TheCrimsonSpire wrote...

I agree with everything you said except this. There is "suspicion", and then there is full blown ignorance, where she straight out tells you to your face, that she thinks aliens = animals. 

It's like as if, for example, I was walking down the sidewalk with you, and you knew I had bad experience with black people in my family's history. We then see a group of them walk on the opposite side of the road, and I vindictively say, "I can't tell the difference between the animals and the black people around here."

Yaaaa, that comment wouldn't fly so well would it? That's why people have issue with the woman, because she speaks her mind and doesn't hold back, even when it isn't appropriate.

You do realize that in that same analogy, she's referring to humanity as well, right?  How everyone looks out for their own?

I don't see that reference at all in what she says honestly. Where does she state that she is also speaking about humanity being animals too? Don't say it was the news feed on the citadel quoting her, because that doesn't count. The news either didn't want to release what she really said, or they just didn't understand it imho. The direct quote from ME1 states, that Ashley is speaking soley about the aliens being animal. No where else, does she mean everyone being animals.

[Theodoro]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

Theodoro wrote...

Aristobulus500 wrote...

Honestly Ashley is one of my most disliked characters, mostly I can't abide her space racism, and of course how mean she is to Liara and how much she talks her down.

I know it makes sense with her character, and her history and all - it's not bad writing, it's just writing her into a character I don't like.

I agree completely, though I respect the fact that one such character was needed in Mass Effect so that you would have these different views of humans regarding aliens since, in my opinion, it's one of the themes of ME1. That allows you to make your own view and share it in the game itself. That doesn't make me dislike her less, though. I wish we had the option to 'turn' her as we can turn Kaidan into a xenophobe.

Honestly? I just wish the game let you do the opposite, I think it'd be interesting. By that I mean, it's very easy to play a space racist Shepard that does not trust or get along with aliens at all.

But it's almost impossible to play a, well, a race traitor Shep or at least a xenophiliac that vastly prefers aliens to humans. Much less one that prefers a specific race of aliens to others...

Sure, you can roleplay it out in your mind, but it won't get reflected in the dialogue or actions, like a space racist Shep would still show off that he just doesn't like aliens.

This is different than a paragon Shepard because Paragon Shepard treats everyone nice and equal, he doesn't have special preferences, I'm simply suggesting the opposite end of the extremism scale, which would have its own slew of problems and conflicts.

Of course, especially with the war going on, a space racist Shepard would still know that humanity will need the aliens' help if they are to survive. The same for a race traitor who would abandon Earth in favour of another race capital, but these extremes should not be available for the player.

But I agree that what Mass Effect actually wants to stimulate instead is the cooperation between races, a unity of sorts, despite all the possible differences between them. This is what ME3's ending was meant to inspire as the fleet of the entire galaxy marched in through the Charon Relay, each person of any race willing to die trying to stop this threat to all organic (and synthetic) life. That's the feeling I got when I signaled the Alliance fleet to move in on Sovereign and save the Destiny Ascension, and that's what I thought that the ME3 ending was going to be about. Instead... you know the rest.

[Ajosraa]

doozer12 wrote...

who cares if she changed her views on aliens, everyone thought she deserved death and foolishly killed her on virmire for being an unforgivable ''racist''. ^.o

nah, more to get her out of the way of the Liara romance ;P

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Ecrulis wrote...

Ok so here's a question for all of you who have renegade sheps with Liara,

How do you see, headcannon or what have you, Liara reacting to the progressive facial scars over the course of ME2?

Seeing the scars Shepard bear would simply added to her guilt of handing Shepard over to Cerberus, along with the fear of what extremes they have gone to bring Shepard back.

I have a part in my fanfic that says it best for me.

She could still hardly believe that he had returned, but should she not
of all people expect his return the most? No, what should she have
expected? Lawson had told her that Shepard’s body was in poor condition,
that the project might not even succeed. The words had devastated
her. First she had sacrificed Feron for a corpse, when she did not even
know of the Lazarus project. Her quest to seek closure had resulted in
the loss of even more life. When she had returned, Miranda had
confronted her with a proposal. Give Cerberus the body and Shepard would
be given a second chance. She accepted the offer; despite all what she
told herself, she had done it out of
her own desire to see Shepard
live again, not because it was what was best for him. So when she heard
of the body’s bad condition her heart sank. If Shepard did come back,
would he even be the same man she loved? Or just a Cerberus puppet, a
mere shell of what he used to be. The fears of what extreme measures
Cerberus might have done to bring Shepard back plagued her. It had
weighted on her for two years, she had hoped to escape these feelings,
but now. With Shepard alive again, they had come back to haunt her in
full force. She had seen the security recordings of Omega’s slums, how
Shepard had cleared street after street on his way to his objective, how
he had with cold efficiency and precision killed all the blue suns and
Vorcha that opposed him. No one spared, no one wounded, just casualties.
She had seen the scars her lover’s face now bore, the faint red glow
his eyes gave. An eerie similarity to the Illusive Man, or Saren…

[Ecrulis]

doozer12 wrote...

who cares if she changed her views on aliens, everyone thought she deserved death and foolishly killed her on virmire for being an unforgivable ''racist''. ^.o

My cannon shep left her because Kaiden was the one at the bomb, Mission comes first and I need to make sure that bomb goes off.

[TheCrimsonSpire]

rubynorman wrote...

Ashley was talking about the keeper in that scene. She doesn't like alien, XO Priesly didn't trust alien too.
"All these dammed aliens aboard the Alliance's most advanced ship. I just don't trust them. Especially that dammed asari. and a quarian! What does Shepard think this is, a zoo?"
But after ME1, he changed his mind and
"I'm taking a look back at past entries in this journal. I [UNRECOVERABLE DATE] how blind I was at the time.... Shepard brought all these aliens on board, and these's no way we could have accomplished what we did without them. I'm proud to say [CORRUPT] die for any member of this crew, regardless of what wolrd they were born on."
I believe that Ashley changed her view on alien after working with them too. :happy:

I think you are confusing two seperate scenes here. The line where she states, she can't tell the difference between animals and aliens, is said just outside the presidium embassies. It triggers at random when you talk to her in that area. There is no keepers at the embassy entrance either, so no she was not talking about them.

Man I wish I could fnd a video or link where she says the line....

[Akernis]

IliyaMoroumetz wrote...
Speaking for myself, I firmly believe Ashley and Liara get along very well.  They both have family histories they don't like, they both lost parents that sacrificed themselves for their children, and they consider family a priority.

I never got the impression that they got well along, they might accept each other's pressence but I doupt that they would for example be making small talk just because neither of them had anything better to do.

Where do you get the impression that family is a priority for Liara? she even brushes of the idea of talking to her farther untill Shepard pushes.

Modifié par Akernis, 10 mai 2012 - 05:34 .

[Ecrulis]

Lizardviking wrote...

Ecrulis wrote...

Ok so here's a question for all of you who have renegade sheps with Liara,

How do you see, headcannon or what have you, Liara reacting to the progressive facial scars over the course of ME2?

Seeing the scars Shepard bear would simply added to her guilt of handing Shepard over to Cerberus, along with the fear of what extremes they have gone to bring Shepard back.

I have a part in my fanfic that says it best for me.

She could still hardly believe that he had returned, but should she not
of all people expect his return the most? No, what should she have
expected? Lawson had told her that Shepard’s body was in poor condition,
that the project might not even succeed. The words had devastated
her. First she had sacrificed Feron for a corpse, when she did not even
know of the Lazarus project. Her quest to seek closure had resulted in
the loss of even more life. When she had returned, Miranda had
confronted her with a proposal. Give Cerberus the body and Shepard would
be given a second chance. She accepted the offer; despite all what she
told herself, she had done it out of
her own desire to see Shepard
live again, not because it was what was best for him. So when she heard
of the body’s bad condition her heart sank. If Shepard did come back,
would he even be the same man she loved? Or just a Cerberus puppet, a
mere shell of what he used to be. The fears of what extreme measures
Cerberus might have done to bring Shepard back plagued her. It had
weighted on her for two years, she had hoped to escape these feelings,
but now. With Shepard alive again, they had come back to haunt her in
full force. She had seen the security recordings of Omega’s slums, how
Shepard had cleared street after street on his way to his objective, how
he had with cold efficiency and precision killed all the blue suns and
Vorcha that opposed him. No one spared, no one wounded, just casualties.
She had seen the scars her lover’s face now bore, the faint red glow
his eyes gave. An eerie similarity to the Illusive Man, or Saren…

I actually love that, though for me after the reunion on the normandy those fears would be put to rest, what she says in chronos station comes to mind and forgive me if I butcher the quote I dont have it memorized "I kew it was really you the first time I touched you again." I like to think that this says, for my shep at least, that any fears she may have had, scars or no, that cerberus had done something to shepard were washed away when they joined after LotSB.

[rubynorman]

doozer12 wrote...

who cares if she changed her views on aliens, everyone thought she deserved death and foolishly killed her on virmire for being an unforgivable ''racist''. ^.o

I did kill her on Virmine because Kaidan is the one who is at the bomb too.
But her character is more interesting than Kaidan's IMO.

TheCrimsonSpire wrote...

I think you are confusing two
seperate scenes here. The line where she states, she can't tell the
difference between animals and aliens, is said just outside the
presidium embassies. It triggers at random when you talk to her in that
area. There is no keepers at the embassy entrance either, so no she was
not talking about them.

Man I wish I could fnd a video or link where she says the line....

Really, I read that "talking about the keeper" in an Ashley romancer's post somewhere.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Ecrulis wrote...
I actually love that, though for me after the reunion on the normandy those fears would be put to rest, what she says in chronos station comes to mind and forgive me if I butcher the quote I dont have it memorized "I kew it was really you the first time I touched you again." I like to think that this says, for my shep at least, that any fears she may have had, scars or no, that cerberus had done something to shepard were washed away when they joined after LotSB.

You should read the rest of the fic if you want proper context! It will explain everything.:innocent:

[Ecrulis]

Lizardviking wrote...

Ecrulis wrote...
I actually love that, though for me after the reunion on the normandy those fears would be put to rest, what she says in chronos station comes to mind and forgive me if I butcher the quote I dont have it memorized "I kew it was really you the first time I touched you again." I like to think that this says, for my shep at least, that any fears she may have had, scars or no, that cerberus had done something to shepard were washed away when they joined after LotSB.

You should read the rest of the fic if you want proper context! It will explain everything.:innocent:

I will! 

If I was going to add anything to what I said in my post asking the question its that, and I was considering this whenh writting it,  Liara knows Shepards past how ruthlessly efficient she was and the trageedy on Mindoir that caused this way of thinking, by the end of ME1 shepard had begun to change a lot, opening up to somewhat to the crew, actually building friendships with them, and after their night before Illos sharing with Liara her most guarded and painful memory the death of her parents, and seeing shep in ME2 with the scars and the ruthless efficiency she would be afraid that her lover had reverted back, through cerberus' own machinations, to what she was before their relationship. I like to think this is what spurred the I don't want to put pressure on you shes not sure how badly shep has reverted back to the old distant self. those fears are obliterated with the joining aboard the normandy.

As a side note ME2 for my shep (and Im sure many others) begins as a very low point, not only does she learn shes lost 2 years of her life but that she has no idea if she has lost the one person shes alowed herself to love in 12 years (assuming shep is 28 by ME1) a pain she swore to herself she would never allow to happen again so she begins to back step towards her old distant self, this is made worse on horizon when kaiden suddenly doesnt trust her. The most painful thing is when she finally sees Liara it seems she is very distant. Its only when Liara reveals what happened that Shep allows herself to start trusting people again. And that recovery completes when she reunites with Liara on the normandy.

whew I guess I got a little wordy there, I tend to go overboard when delving into my cannon sheps psyche .

Modifié par Ecrulis, 10 mai 2012 - 05:44 .

[Ajosraa]

frudi wrote...

rubynorman wrote...

About Ashley from Liara's POV if she kills Ashley
youtu.be/jm6-P1tawIc

Wow, I didn't even know about that dialogue, or that the game would even acknowledge and respond to which of your squad shoots VS during the coup. Nice touch.


With regards to Ashley... she obviously has very human-centric views and a good deal of prejudice and mistrust towards aliens. And she projects these same 'qualities' on to her own views of these same aliens. We can argue whether this is racism/xenophobia, but that's just arguing semantics. It's not about the label we put on her, it's about her views and it's those that make me hard to relate to her. Add how she treats Shepard through ME2 and much of ME3 and I can't really like her all that much.

Humm..in my passion I think i may have forgotten this. Your right, mistrust could turn to prejudice. Just look at Cerberus as an extreme example. And it makes sence that someone would "project" those feelings.

I think my reaction was fuled by not agreeing that she is akin to a member of the KKK or Hitler youth basicly;P I see Ash as a bit more level headed then that, even with her more firey personality.

This helps me to understand why people may think these things of Ashley. Thank you.

Modifié par Ajosraa, 10 mai 2012 - 05:36 .

[TheCrimsonSpire]

frudi wrote...

Wow, I didn't even know about that dialogue, or that the game would even acknowledge and respond to which of your squad shoots VS during the coup. Nice touch.


With regards to Ashley... she obviously has very human-centric views and a good deal of prejudice and mistrust towards aliens. And she projects these same 'qualities' on to her own views of these same aliens. We can argue whether this is racism/xenophobia, but that's just arguing semantics. It's not about the label we put on her, it's about her views and it's those that make me hard to relate to her. Add how she treats Shepard through ME2 and much of ME3 and I can't really like her all that much.

Well said, and I agree whole heartely. Lke I have said before, it's less to do with what she says, and more about how she says it. The delivery in her lines at times, reeks with antagonising venom towards some of the aliens. She sometimes comes across as some petulant naive young girl, who doesn't know how to properly act in front of others. take the romance confrontation scene from ME1 for example. Unlike Kaidan, who acts very proffesional during the whole confrontation, Ashley immediately puts down Liara, and treats the whole thing like it's a high school love triangle gone wrong. 

[Tyranniac]

TheCrimsonSpire wrote...

Well said, and I agree whole heartely. Lke I have said before, it's less to do with what she says, and more about how she says it. The delivery in her lines at times, reeks with antagonising venom towards some of the aliens. She sometimes comes across as some petulant naive young girl, who doesn't know how to properly act in front of others. take the romance confrontation scene from ME1 for example. Unlike Kaidan, who acts very proffesional during the whole confrontation, Ashley immediately puts down Liara, and treats the whole thing like it's a high school love triangle gone wrong. 

Speaking of the confrontation in ME1:

Did anyone else experience a bug where both Shepard and Liara referred to Kaidan as female when they talked to each other after Shepard has choosen Liara? It happened to me and I found it very strange, especially since I don't understand why there were audio files for that at all.

[Ecrulis]

frudi wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

You should read the rest of the fic if you want proper context! It will explain everything.:innocent:

Will you people please stop posting links to fanfics? Geesh, I literally have a group of more than two dozen tabs open in my browser with stories I still have to get around to reading. I blame you lot that Opera has been using well over 1 GB of RAM for days now... hm, it's actually closer to 2 GB at times.

*in EDI's voice, just to make sure I don't accidentally offend anyone*: "that was a joke"  

Lol oh EDI you jokes are great.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

frudi wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

You should read the rest of the fic if you want proper context! It will explain everything.:innocent:

Will you people please stop posting links to fanfics? Geesh, I literally have a group of more than two dozen tabs open in my browser with stories I still have to get around to reading. I blame you lot that Opera has been using well over 1 GB of RAM for days now... hm, it's actually closer to 2 GB at times.

*in EDI's voice, just to make sure I don't accidentally offend anyone*: "that was a joke"  

In my defence, the fanfic was always linked via my signature. 

[IliyaMoroumetz]

TheCrimsonSpire wrote...

frudi wrote...

With regards to Ashley... she obviously has very human-centric views and a good deal of prejudice and mistrust towards aliens. And she projects these same 'qualities' on to her own views of these same aliens. We can argue whether this is racism/xenophobia, but that's just arguing semantics. It's not about the label we put on her, it's about her views and it's those that make me hard to relate to her. Add how she treats Shepard through ME2 and much of ME3 and I can't really like her all that much.

And turians, asari, and salarians act any different?  The sheer condescension turians show for humans is rather palpable.  Especially from Sparatus.

And it is semantics.  She's wary of them, not the horrible racist monster so many people erroneously label her as.  You can argue all you like, it's apples and oranges unless people who incorrectly find reasons to dislike her stick to it.

It is the labels that people put on her.  Unjustly, it seems.  So, it's evidently her problem if the Alliance feels fit to punish *her* for something her *grandfather* did.   

Well said, and I agree whole heartely. Lke I have said before, it's less to do with what she says, and more about how she says it. The delivery in her lines at times, reeks with antagonising venom towards some of the aliens. She sometimes comes across as some petulant naive young girl, who doesn't know how to properly act in front of others. take the romance confrontation scene from ME1 for example. Unlike Kaidan, who acts very proffesional during the whole confrontation, Ashley immediately puts down Liara, and treats the whole thing like it's a high school love triangle gone wrong. 

Antagonizing venom?  Now that's hyberbole and you know it.  The fact she can work with aliens dispells the very notion that she's xenophobic.  Hell, even Pressley's more xenophobic than she is and if you've gone to Alchera, then you realize that he changed.

As for her behavior in ME3, I highly doubt the writers planned to have her act the same whiny, condescending way Kaidan was in ME1.  If the ending was of any indication, a lot of her content got cut due to release date.

But you know what?  I'm done.  I'm not going to try and convince you people about Ashley anymore, since it seems that you've already made up your minds about her, despite the evidence to the contrary.

[Tyranniac]

IliyaMoroumetz wrote...

...

But you know what?  I'm done.  I'm not going to try and convince you people about Ashley anymore, since it seems that you've already made up your minds about her, despite the evidence to the contrary.

Wow, what's with all the hostility? People put forth some valid points and you resort to bashing Kaidan?

I don't even think anyone called her anything near a horrible racist monster, it was simply pointed out that she is rather xenophobic at times in ME1, even if her reasons are understandable, and it gets better later on, she still acts that way.

[Aristobulus500]

Look, Ashley just makes a horrible first impression with that whole "can't tell the aliens from the animals" line, setting the tone, and then doesn't do anything to clear it up with her constant "But can we REALLY trust these...aliens?!" remarks.

And you're in the Liara thread, if you didn't notice. You're at a disadvantage here, trying to preach the virtues of Ashley, when she spends a lot of the first game specifically being really mean and cruel to Liara.

Who is, for most of us, our favorite character. For some, it's by a significant margin. That ain't winnin' Ashley any points.

When Tali does the same thing in ME3 it also brings her down a few notches in my book.

We're not saying Ashley is a poorly written, unreasonable character, but she does absolutely nothing to endear herself to us and quite a few things to antagonize us and get on our bad side. Why is that hard to understand?

You're arguing semantics here about the scale of racism she holds...however you want to phrase it, however the scale, however reasonable, she's mean to Liara and doesn't trust aliens. Those aren't traits I'm going to like.

[SimulatedSnowman]

IliyaMoroumetz wrote...

And turians, asari, and salarians act any different?  The sheer condescension turians show for humans is rather palpable.  Especially from Sparatus.

And it is semantics.  She's wary of them, not the horrible racist monster so many people erroneously label her as.  You can argue all you like, it's apples and oranges unless people who incorrectly find reasons to dislike her stick to it.

It is the labels that people put on her.  Unjustly, it seems.  So, it's evidently her problem if the Alliance feels fit to punish *her* for something her *grandfather* did.   

Just because other people do it does not make it excusable.

What I do think should be considered, is that she's an Alliance soldier who survived some pretty horrific fights against many races (including humans), so she's probably got something negative to say about every race. It happens. Everyone has prejudices, and I imagine that if you're used to seeing the negative side of anything, it will eventually become difficult to recognize the existence of a positive side. 

Still, my renegade shep was working on a romance with Ashley, and broke up with her by telling her to babysit a bomb. Racist or not, Ashley is clearly inferior to Liara hehe

Modifié par SimulatedSnowman, 10 mai 2012 - 06:15 .

[Akernis]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

Look, Ashley just makes a horrible first impression with that whole "can't tell the aliens from the animals" line, setting the tone, and then doesn't do anything to clear it up with her constant "But can we REALLY trust these...aliens?!" remarks.

And you're in the Liara thread, if you didn't notice. You're at a disadvantage here, trying to preach the virtues of Ashley, when she spends a lot of the first game specifically being really mean and cruel to Liara.

Who is, for most of us, our favorite character. For some, it's by a significant margin. That ain't winnin' Ashley any points.

When Tali does the same thing in ME3 it also brings her down a few notches in my book.

We're not saying Ashley is a poorly written, unreasonable character, but she does absolutely nothing to endear herself to us and quite a few things to antagonize us and get on our bad side. Why is that hard to understand?

You're arguing semantics here about the scale of racism she holds...however you want to phrase it, however the scale, however reasonable, she's mean to Liara and doesn't trust aliens. Those aren't traits I'm going to like.

This, very much. I don't really dislike her, but she does nothing to endear me to her either. She is a character that while well-written does not fall into my taste, simple as that.

Modifié par Akernis, 10 mai 2012 - 06:24 .

[PMC65]

IliyaMoroumetz wrote...

Antagonizing venom?  Now that's hyberbole and you know it.  The fact she can work with aliens dispells the very notion that she's xenophobic.  Hell, even Pressley's more xenophobic than she is and if you've gone to Alchera, then you realize that he changed.

As for her behavior in ME3, I highly doubt the writers planned to have her act the same whiny, condescending way Kaidan was in ME1.  If the ending was of any indication, a lot of her content got cut due to release date.

But you know what?  I'm done.  I'm not going to try and convince you people about Ashley anymore, since it seems that you've already made up your minds about her, despite the evidence to the contrary.

*hugs*

I feel your pain! As someone who adores both Ashley and Liara it seems these two characters are constantly bashed. But I have learned to just ignore the haters and move on ... it makes life easier.

But can we not bash other characters on this thread? If you want to discuss your views on Ash then head over to the Ashley thread ... Just be forewarned that they have heard it all and actually have an arsenal of data from both the writers to devs on her character ... Just sayin'.

And like Band of Brothers these two characters if they were real would not be impressed with outsiders blasting them. They were in the trenches together and Ashley was there when Liara lost her mother and also after Thessia. I wish that they had shown the scene of Ashley comforting Liara after Thessia. Of course, I have my own headcanon of that moment.

And I'll leave you guys with these ... from Save Game (check out the site)
 http://savegameonlin...-of-the-citadel