56469 réponses à ce sujet

[Aristobulus500]

Akernis wrote...
I will have to say though that without the reaper threat a lot of that interaction with the characters would have felt diminished 

I disagree - at least in a sense. Obviously without the main conflict things would've played out differently and such, but I think the characters and the setting is strong enough to be very interesting even without a conflict.

As you said, all of your most memorable moments were just scenes shared with characters and about them, not times or scenes where you defeated a big bad villain, in and of itself.

Maybe I'm alone in this line of thought - but once I got introduced to the setting and the characters, I didn't need the Reapers to motivate me to keep playing anymore. My reasons for playing the trilogy, once I understood it, was entirely about getting do more with the characters I loved, and see more of the universe - just a chance to get to actually explore Thessia was enough motivation, for example.

And like - that's what I want to do. Just getting to run around Thessia as a hub would've been fascinating to me - even if I wasn't fighting my way through it and it wasn't a combat zone or anything, just seeing the sights and such would've been what I wanted, especially if it could've lead into more scenes with characters like Liara, just learning more about her and doing things with her on Thessia and such.

But this train of thought applies to all the characters and places, not just Liara and not just Thessia

For me, the Reapers...they were just something I wanted to stop so that I could preserve the galactic community I found so fascinating, and protect the characters I'd grown to care very much about. That was my goal, meaning it's met even if the Reapers blink out of existence instead of me actually defeating them - because I didn't really care about the conflict itself, I cared about the galaxy and the characters.

[Arcataye]

Tyranniac wrote...

Hurrah for the animators!

Hurrah! We shall find their names and send them cupcakes, okay?

Aristobulus500 wrote...

Maybe I'm alone in this line of thought - but once I got introduced to the setting and the characters, I didn't need the Reapers to motivate me to keep playing anymore. My reasons for playing the trilogy, once I understood it, was entirely about getting do more with the characters I loved, and see more of the universe - just a chance to get to actually explore Thessia was enough motivation, for example.

You're not alone. I really didn't care that much of the Reapers. I didn't care about Earth. I didn't care about the Stargazer.
I only played the games for the characters. About the universe, I enjoyed running on the empty planets in ME1 as that made the galaxy feel so much larger. Even if there was nobody to fight it was fun and interesting.

Extended Cut DLC, I wouldnt mind at all if Shepard stays dead if that means I get to know what happened to everyone else. Atleast I hope it won't be all about Shepard, Reapers, Catalyst and the war. I still think that it won't be anything revolutionary.

Thessia? Goddamit dont remind me. Why Bioware, why?

Modifié par Arcataye, 11 mai 2012 - 09:42 .

[The Lightspeaker]

Been following the thread still, just not posting lately. So I'm having to be selective in responses to prevent HUGE WALL here. 

GreenFlag wrote...

I hope, you will like it

[img]http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/131/2/5/is_i_time__by_greenflagcz-d4zfc5h.jpg[img]
[img]http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/1168/liarafirsttime3.jpg%3C/a%3E[/img]

Ok, THAT is a great picture.

frudi wrote...

Figured I should set up a custom avatar,
with the casual-LotSB-Liara one I liked getting used by so many new
members. I'd almost given up hope that I would get it to work, it took
almost a whole day for it to get uploaded. Finally it showed up, so /me
== happy now

Yup, it takes FOREVER to come up and it's a bit random. I actually ended up making like four Dragon Age characters just to ensure at least one would upload.

Tyranniac wrote...

Robhuzz wrote...

Instead
of spending time on blue babies I'd rather they spend that time on an
even better and more heartwarming reunion scene and a proper
Liara&Shepard worthy epilogue. I don't mind the thought of having
blue babies with Liara eventually but I won't really care if they aren't
mentioned ever again. Headcanon and fanfiction can fill that gap.

*Prepares flamesh.... nvm.. Hides behind PMC*

Jokes aside, yeah, it's the -possibility- I want, they don't actually need to show it.

This...like...a lot...

Honestly it wouldn't make sense this soon after everything regardless, it'd feel awkward and silly and arbitary. But the possibilities are more important than what you actually SEE. The current ending basically screws all possibilities...

Aristobulus500 wrote...

It really is a shame they thought
people cared more about the pure conflict against the Reapers than just
the characters that made up the story.

I've said it before in one of my blogs and I'll say it again: most of us didn't fight to defeat the damn Reapers. The Reapers were the threat, not the goal.  What we were fighting for was to save the galaxy and all the people and species in it that we'd grown to know and love. And because of that ending we failed...

Seriously, it's GOT to be changed...

[Tyranniac]

Arcataye wrote... 
You're not alone. I really didn't care that much of the Reapers. I didn't care about Earth. I didn't care about the Stargazer.
I only played the games for the characters.

Extended Cut DLC, I wouldnt mind at all if Shepard stays dead if that means I get to know what happened to everyone else. Atleast I hope it won't be all about Shepard, Reapers, Catalyst and the war. I still think that it won't be anything revolutionary.

While I agree that the characters and setting are what makes Mass Effect so great, I do care about the Reapers (Earth, not so much though). Firstly the Reapers are an important part of that setting, and the conflict is a vital part of the trilogy that I enjoy, that said I would have loved more content that focused on the characters and such, and perhaps future titles with less of a conflict and more exploration of the galaxy and its peoples. Also, I wouldn't be content with Shepard being dead in the EC even if they tell what happens to the others.

Modifié par Tyranniac, 11 mai 2012 - 09:45 .

[Erenbe]

Tyranniac wrote...
While I agree that the characters and setting are what makes Mass Effect so great, I do care about the Reapers (Earth, not so much though). Firstly the Reapers are an important part of that setting, and the conflict is a vital part of the trilogy that I enjoy, that said I would have loved more content that focused on the characters and such, and perhaps future titles with less of a conflict and more exploration of the galaxy and its peoples. Also, I wouldn't be content with Shepard being dead in the EC even if they tell what happens to the others.

pretty much this.
The reaper story is imho crucial to ME. Even from a character point of view. Liara wouldn't be the Liara we got to know in the game without the reapers. She would still be happily digging in some ancient ruin on some remote planet. Same for Shepard or all the other characters. The reaper war is a defining event in their life. 
Sure, more time with the characters would be grand...but I wouldn't want to leave the reaper story out. Why not just add to that. 

[Aristobulus500]

Yeah, I've said it before, but I will never be satisfied with an ending wherein it is impossible for Shepard to survive to have a happy ending with his LI, in a non destroyed galaxy, no matter how you played throughout the series.

If your *choices* have made the ending impossible because you just killed too many people or didn't unite the galaxy well enough or whatever, that's one thing - but if it's just outright impossible, I will never call it a good ending for ME.

[Tyranniac]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

Yeah, I've said it before, but I will never be satisfied with an ending wherein it is impossible for Shepard to survive to have a happy ending with his LI, in a non destroyed galaxy, no matter how you played throughout the series.

If your *choices* have made the ending impossible because you just killed too many people or didn't unite the galaxy well enough or whatever, that's one thing - but if it's just outright impossible, I will never call it a good ending for ME.

Agree.

[Wulfram]

The reapers are important, but generally they worked best as effectively a force of nature. The story of Mass Effect isn't really about the reapers, it's about how people react to the reapers.

I don't think Shepard dying is something that should only happen as a failure. There should be legitimate reasons for them to pick that option.

[Tyranniac]

Wulfram wrote...

I don't think Shepard dying is something that should only happen as a failure. There should be legitimate reasons for them to pick that option.

No thanks. That'd mean only renegade Shep gets to live. No heroic sacrifice please.

I'd rather you just need to have prepared really damn well to survive.

[Arcataye]

Yes, of course Reapers are important. Without them there wouldn't really be a story for the games. I do care in that way. They were quite interesting too, until the starkid ruined them (atleast for me). But really, do you care more about the Reapers or Liara?

I don't really expect anything out of the EC so I'm talking from a very pessimistic point of view. They've said so many times that they're sticking to their art and won't change it. So I wouldn't mind IF Shepard stays dead IF they make some sense for other characters. If they just focus on the starkid scene and keep the crew on that weird planet with no explanation, I'm done with Bioware games.

Shepard alive/dead should be made in the same way as in ME2, no problem there.

Too damn hard to get the message out as the way I mean by text only. Should just stop posting.
Good night.

Modifié par Arcataye, 11 mai 2012 - 10:19 .

[Akernis]

Erenbe wrote...

Tyranniac wrote...
While I agree that the characters and setting are what makes Mass Effect so great, I do care about the Reapers (Earth, not so much though). Firstly the Reapers are an important part of that setting, and the conflict is a vital part of the trilogy that I enjoy, that said I would have loved more content that focused on the characters and such, and perhaps future titles with less of a conflict and more exploration of the galaxy and its peoples. Also, I wouldn't be content with Shepard being dead in the EC even if they tell what happens to the others.

pretty much this.
The reaper story is imho crucial to ME. Even from a character point of view. Liara wouldn't be the Liara we got to know in the game without the reapers. She would still be happily digging in some ancient ruin on some remote planet. Same for Shepard or all the other characters. The reaper war is a defining event in their life. 
Sure, more time with the characters would be grand...but I wouldn't want to leave the reaper story out. Why not just add to that. 

Agreed. 
And I liked the reapers as an enemy, one of the reasons it really irked my that not only did Cerberus have such a huge role in the third but that the reapers wasn't even the main bad guys but simply some automatons enslaved to a dumb glowing... thing.

But to me it wasn't just the characters that made the story great, it was the entire thing the characters, and romance in  particular just happened to be the best, but to me it would have been incomplete without the other elements.

[Aristobulus500]

The death doesn't have to be a "failure" just because if you play perfectly you *can* survive. Say, for a lower EMS, Shepard's death results in the Reapers being defeated and the galactic community remaining intact and the rest of his squad and LI survives. That's very much a victory and a happy ending...it's not a failure.

I'm simply saying as a perfectionist option, Shepard should be able to do the impossible and not have to die for that ending.

[Tyranniac]

Arcataye wrote...

Yes, of course Reapers are important. Without them there wouldn't really be a story for the games. I do care in that way. But really, do you care more about the Reapers or Liara?

 

About equal. I love the Reapers, seriously. One of the biggest reasons I hate the ending is the treatment of the Reapers, it's right up there with no reunion for Shep and Liara.

Arcataye wrote... 
I don't really expect anything out of the EC so I'm talking from a very pessimistic point of view. They've said so many times that they're sticking to their art and won't change it. So I wouldn't mind IF Shepard stays dead IF they make some sense for other characters.

 

I prefer to stay postive for the time being, but I understand the merits of keeping your hopes low.

Arcataye wrote...  

Shepard alive/dead should be made in the same way as in ME2, no problem there.

 

Agree.

Arcataye wrote...   
Too damn hard to get the message out as the way I mean by text only. Should just stop posting.

Oh, come on, don't be like that. Is it really such a horrible thing to have to clarify yourself a bit?

[Dude on Fire]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

Yeah, I've said it before, but I will never be satisfied with an ending wherein it is impossible for Shepard to survive to have a happy ending with his LI, in a non destroyed galaxy, no matter how you played throughout the series.

If your *choices* have made the ending impossible because you just killed too many people or didn't unite the galaxy well enough or whatever, that's one thing - but if it's just outright impossible, I will never call it a good ending for ME.

The endings aren't even *endings*. An ending takes all the loose ends and tie them together for the conclusion, where at least an acceptable amount of things are put to closure and explenation. ME3 just cuts all of those red lines OFF. Wanna know what happened to your squad mates? Oh, they're stranded. Most probable scenario? They'll die.

It's not an ending. It's a stop. A cut-off. An abomination to the Mass Effect series. And here's the deal: I don't just want some epilogues, no - frankly, I hate the whole concept of epilogues. They make you completely accept that the world you've been taking part of will now seize to exist. I'd rather have fully fleshed cinematics and dialogues with EVERYONE, and then an ending that both says "This is an ending, and it's good" and at the same time "You want more, don't you?"

'Cause I can live with that unconcious need for even more Mass Effect. If you're given an epilogue, then that's it. Over. You know everything you technically need to know about the characters and the universe. Bye-bye. I'd honestly feel empty. No more Liara. No more Shepard. I know all the relevant stuff that's going to happen... so why bother having your own imagination about it? Why bother having that naive and subconcious hope for additional content? That's something we need. Still today I'm happy with Metal Gear Solid 4. Why? Well... technically MSG5 has been announced as in development... but I've felt like this since the 4'th installment. It's just this feeling... of hope, for more.
Like, I'm not saying there has to be a ME4, not at all. It's about the subconcious state of mind.

[Akernis]

Arcataye wrote...
Yes, of course Reapers are important. Without them there wouldn't really be a story for the games. I do care in that way. They were quite interesting too, until the starkid ruined them (atleast for me).

Agreed here, especially the bolded part.

Arcataye wrote...
But really, do you care more about the Reapers or Liara?

That is a little hash isn't it?

Of course we care more about Liara, or I do, even if I love the reapers as an enemy, I am just saying that they are as important to the story, not that they hold a closer place in my heart.

It seems that I too am having trouple expression myself today

Modifié par Akernis, 11 mai 2012 - 10:32 .

[Wulfram]

If the death happens because you chose poorly, it's a failure.

It also takes away a lot of the meaning from it - Shepard is basically dying not for any good reason, but because I, the player, deliberately chose to sabotage him. That sucks.

It doesn't have to be Paragon vs Renegade. Is Control more Paragon than Destroy? Is undertaking the Dark Ritual in DA:O "Renegade"?

edit: two rather OT posts from me, so screenshot tax

Modifié par Wulfram, 11 mai 2012 - 10:31 .

[moreeman06]

Akernis wrote...

Arcataye wrote...
Yes, of course Reapers are important. Without them there wouldn't really be a story for the games. I do care in that way. They were quite interesting too, until the starkid ruined them (atleast for me).

Agreed here, especially the bolded part.

Arcataye wrote...
But really, do you care more about the Reapers or Liara?

That is a little hash isn't it?

Of course we care more about Liara, or I do, even if I love the reapers as an enemy, I am just saying that they are as important to the story, not that they hold a closer place in my heart.

It seems that I too am having trouple expression myself today

*raises hand* seconded

[Akernis]

Wulfram wrote...
It doesn't have to be Paragon vs Renegade. Is Control more Paragon than Destroy?

No, I would say vice versa, despite the colours.

Wulfram wrote...
 Is undertaking the Dark Ritual in DA:O "Renegade"?

*snip*

Yes I would say so, it is just one I am perfectly willing to undertake despite playing a "paragon" character in DAO

oh  and lovely picture

Modifié par Akernis, 11 mai 2012 - 10:40 .

[Tyranniac]

Wulfram wrote... 

It doesn't have to be Paragon vs Renegade. Is Control more Paragon than Destroy? Is undertaking the Dark Ritual in DA:O "Renegade"?

That's not how I meant. I think Destroy is the morally right choice regardless. It's just that normally it would be either save more people or save yourself.

Also I haven't played any Dragon Age so I have absolutely no clue whatsoever. 

Modifié par Tyranniac, 11 mai 2012 - 10:39 .

[Tyranniac]

I just finished my new main Shepard run of ME2 that is meant to replace my old one, and I was hoping that someone could tell me how to fix the LotSB import flag so that I get the correct dialogue in ME3. I have the save editor.

[Spartx9]

Under the plot tab, go to the mass effect 2 -> romance then check the box that says liara toured the normandy. (though haven't had time to recently as both with the dead vid card finally coming back + life paving an interesting road for me to take, been busy with that).

If that doesn't work then check this out. http://social.biowar...ndex/10772461/1

[Tyranniac]

Spartx9 wrote...

Under the plot tab, go to the mass effect 2 -> romance then check the box that says liara toured the normandy. (though haven't had time to recently as both with the dead vid card finally coming back + life paving an interesting road for me to take, been busy with that).

If that doesn't work then check this out. http://social.biowar...ndex/10772461/1

Great, thanks! Let's hope it works.

[Neeh]

God damn tops...Ufh *shuffles through libary* Hold on!

Arcataye wrote...

Those self-animated things are great, but somehow they creep me out because they miss that "something". Don't take it the wrong way, I admire the work they've done. Wish I'd even know the basics.

I always took character animations and stuff for granted, but I've grown to respect the people behind the characters. They really brought them alive. All the voice acting was spot on too.

Motion capture is cheating! Do want a mo-cap studio.
And just for reference when it comes to hand animating, I belive the average output for animators at pixar is about 4 seconds a week. The brain just knows when things don't look right, without being able to tell you what's missing..

Modifié par Neeh, 12 mai 2012 - 12:36 .

[fluffywalrus]

A Liara thread that's turned into discussion on endings?

I'm going to agree with Frudi a fair bit in saying I cared most about the characters I grew to love, and what mattered to them. The Reapers were a force of motivation, telling me I was running out of time, that I had to make the best of it, do what I could with what I had left.
And that led into the more ideological pursuits of self-determination, cooperation over competition, diversity over assimilation, etc.

I fought for Tali to be able to build a home on Rannoch and for Quarians not to be looked down upon by the galaxy. I fought for Legion's goal of peace with their creators, for a time long past that showed hope of people not being frightened by a species difference and potential. I fought for Wrex and Bakara so that the Krogan would have hope again. I fought for Jack because I saw a scared little girl that had experienced the worst humanity was capable of, and hated the idea that what happened to her could happen to others. I fought for Thane so that he would have the chance to make a better future for his son, and the victims of tyrants. I fought for Liara because...well, you all can likely guess. I'm not going to list each character because I'm tired and all that jazz, but you get my point.

But my motivations would have been lessened in magnitude without urgency. Losing those 2 years after ME1 was devastating to me. The game was all about the time I spent, the time I lost, and the time I wanted. The reapers delivered that, and without it, I would not have cared for these characters as much, I fear.

And I was fine with it being bleak...I expected it. Too much went wrong in the series. Too many times was Shepard's voice dismissed.
But the ending provided decisions only peripherally related to the goals Shepard and co fight for all series long. That was the biggest source of heartbreak for me because I couldn't just turn the game off. This was Shepard's decision, and she had to sacrifice a large part of who she was, what she fought for, no matter the choice of ending. I expected death, the entire game led me to believe this was a real suicide mission, unlike the ME2 one. There would be no happy ending, just a crystal for the galaxy to dig themselves out of the devastation, a ray of hope in the darkness, because really, the galaxy dug the wrong way in this crisis, but they lucked out. Shepard was there. One person can only do so much. I accepted and enjoyed the bleakness. A happy ending where everyone lives and the galaxy suffers no consequences aside from deaths of faceless strangers wouldn't fit (although, a happy ending to service fans who didn't like bleak endings would be fine as an option too, because the whole Femshep+Liara+little blue children, or even the hint of its future possibility, would be heartwarming). There needed to be conventional sacrifices and unconventional sacrifices. Bioware just didn't provide us with such sacrifices that seemed in line with the path the series guided the players along.

As for the EC...
I'm not sure I care about the EC anymore. Writing and other fanfics have accommodated my needs there.

I'm not sure what the EC holds....hell, a 6 Feet Under type ending would probably be enough for me...going through the characters I love's lives and deaths and giving me a glimpse at what they had, what I helped them have.

That would be fine with me. In the end, so matter what Bioware does now, they've given me more than I could have asked. I've cared more about these characters than any in other games. I've wept more times over Mass Effect and its characters than any other games combined. I've felt heartbreak and slipped into a minor depression when I first finished ME3. My friends have said If I was like any character in ME it was Kasumi(hope I don't need to explain this). The level of writing, overall, has been astounding, and pulled me into the series despite my massive disdain for shooter-style gameplay.

And the fan-based work has only helped me love the series, galaxy, and characters more.
This thread in particular has led me to fanfiction that....well, I've read a lot of fanfiction in my day. A lot of bad fanfiction about characters I've enjoyed, and there's a fair bit of bad ME stuff there...but the good stuff is tremendously good. Sometimes corny/tacky, but there's just so much excellent writing. It's amazing to know others have fleshed out their stories so much, and to see the wealth of variations is....well it makes me really happy.

I'm not sure Bioware can live up to its expectations, so I'm scrapping any from my behalf. The series is still alive either way. I've got everything I want.