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[Sunnie]

Tyranniac wrote...

 Holy crap, the thread dove straight into ending depression after I left?
I guess I'll just say that I'm remaining cautiously optimistic twoards the Extended Cut. As long as a reunion with Liara is possible and the Starchild is explained better I'll accept it. Wouldn't be great, but I'll accept it at this point.

And with that, can we please change the subject? We all know it sucks, so can't we just talk about something else until the EC is released and we know if all hope is lost or not?

Of course, because the ending IS  depressing.
Best course is to expect nothing, that way anything they do release can be considered "more than expected". They still won't actually "fix" what a lot of us think is wrong, so I expect only more of the same crap we already have. /uploads_user/1070000/1069890/194298.gif

Modifié par Sunnie22, 12 mai 2012 - 05:30 .

[IliyaMoroumetz]

So, let's change the subject.

One of the things I absolutely adored about PMC's 'A Thessian's Whisper' was how she gave Liara a real backstory. She's a sports fan, she was involved with someone that wanted to use her standing to get into the higher rungs of Asari society.

And details in the game were sparse enough about her past that it made her interesting and at the same time, an open sandbox for us to play in.

That, my friends, is good characterization.

[Dude on Fire]

It's funny, if ANY synthetic lifeform in the universe would go ballistic because of self-awareness against the creator, it would be the Reapers. They're fully self-intelligent, fully aware of what's happening and what HAS been happening for the past millenia or so. This differs them from the Geth, who all are programs, sharing one common consensus (thus the "we"). The Reapers should have understood at some point how pointless it is for them to serve this Catalyst and work on their own survival instead, which would have been a much better cause for them to strive for - making it easy to determine which side is right and which side is wrong. You still knew the Reapers needed to be stopped when at the ending of ME3, but the game wouldn't let you do what you came for. There was always some kind of stupid consequence that was so incoherient with what you'd learned and accomplished throughout 3 games, that it really felt like the Catalyst actively were lying. I mean, BULLCRAP! Of course the Cruisible has the power to simply destroy/deactivate the Reapers, why wouldn't it? Why would all these cycles have partly designed this troll-device that would put the galaxy into EVEN MORE doom than it has been every 50 000 years?

MAKE US WHOLE AGAIN.

[Tyranniac]

Sunnie22 wrote...

Of course, because the ending IS  depressing.
Best course is to expect nothing, that way anything they do release can be considered "more than expected". They still won't actually "fix" what a lot of us think is wrong, so I expect only more of the same crap we already have. /uploads_user/1070000/1069890/194298.gif

I know it's depressing, I just wasn't expecting...

And I guess it's true that there are benifits to being pessimistic. But... I just can't help but think there's still hope. I think a reunion is rather likely, and after a lot of thinking I've decided that I would be alright with clarification of the Starchild. I don't really need it to be removed if there's a decent explanation. If the proper writers are allowed enough influence I think there's hopes for that. The smaller stuff I can deal with as long as they take care of those two things. I'm not saying it would be anywhere near what I expected, but I'd be able to accept it and enjoy the series further. Understand what I mean?

Edit:

IliyaMoroumetz wrote...

So, let's change the subject. 

One of the things I absolutely adored about PMC's 'A Thessian's Whisper' was how she gave Liara a real backstory. She's a sports fan, she was involved with someone that wanted to use her standing to get into the higher rungs of Asari society. 

And details in the game were sparse enough about her past that it made her interesting and at the same time, an open sandbox for us to play in.

That, my friends, is good characterization.

 

*Can't participate in subject due to not having read said fanfic*

Ah well. You just carry on. Although... sports fan? ...huh?  That seems... wrong, somehow.

Modifié par Tyranniac, 12 mai 2012 - 05:38 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Tyranniac wrote...
I know it's depressing, I just wasn't expecting...

And I guess it's true that there are benifits to being pessimistic. But... I just can't help but think there's still hope. I think a reunion is rather likely, and after a lot of thinking I've decided that I would be alright with clarification of the Starchild. I don't really need it to be removed if there's a decent explanation. If the proper writers are allowed enough influence I think there's hopes for that. The smaller stuff I can deal with as long as they take care of those two things. I'm not saying it would be anywhere near what I expected, but I'd be able to accept it and enjoy the series further. Understand what I mean?

I think the unofficial Mass Effect 3 epilogue proves that even in the confines of the original. A satisfying conlusion to everything can be achieved.

Even then I have no faith in Bioware. They have already lost my trust.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 12 mai 2012 - 05:39 .

[Obsidian Gryphon]

Just finished the fanfic A Thessian's Whisper. Well written! Enjoyed it very much. Kudos to the author!

[Tyranniac]

Lizardviking wrote...

I think the unofficial Mass Effect 3 epilogue proves that even in the confines of the original. A satisfying conlusion to everything can be achieved.

Even then I have no faith in Bioware. They have already lost my trust.

Oh, yeah, I loved those epilogue slides. The only thing that would be needed aside from what is in there is a more detailed explanation of the Reapers.

And I have faith in BioWare, but not in the leadership.

[Sunnie]

Lizardviking wrote...

Tyranniac wrote...
I know it's depressing, I just wasn't expecting...

And I guess it's true that there are benifits to being pessimistic. But... I just can't help but think there's still hope. I think a reunion is rather likely, and after a lot of thinking I've decided that I would be alright with clarification of the Starchild. I don't really need it to be removed if there's a decent explanation. If the proper writers are allowed enough influence I think there's hopes for that. The smaller stuff I can deal with as long as they take care of those two things. I'm not saying it would be anywhere near what I expected, but I'd be able to accept it and enjoy the series further. Understand what I mean?

I think the unofficial Mass Effect 3 epilogue proves that even in the confines of the original. A satisfying conlusion to everything can be achieved.

Even then I have no faith in Bioware. They have already lost my trust.

See, here's the thing... They pulled off a home run with LotSB, after most of the Liara fandom was devastated and depressed with the crappy and limited interaction with Liara in ME2 proper. LotSB was a direct result of said issue fans had with what they originally did. I certainly was expecting nothing, and was blown away with what we got in that DLC.

Fast forward to the present. Here we are again, only this time its every segment of the fan base complaining about the end. Logic dictates that they should be able to pull off another LotSB-esque save with the EC. Right?
However, there are a few more things going on in this that say otherwise. Mainly, that they are not going to add any additional endings, which is a big problem for a large number of unhappy consumers. Back before LotSB, they finally said "Hey, just wait! You'll be blown away with what we are doing!", and they were right! Now all we hear is "We are not changing anything, but we will make more stuff to clarify the ending we already gave you".
See where the issue comes from? So I not only expect nothing, I actually expect more of the same crap we already have. So, if they do manage to get another one by everyone and actually fix it then I'll be happy to be blown away, again!

[MidnightRaith]

I apologize for contributing to the depression, I just never really got the chance to voice my own opinions on it. Rather exploded, didn't it? I've been sitting on it for two months, I suppose it simply festered.....

EDIT: I also expect very little of the EC. I actually think it's going to be bad. You don't "clarify" blatant disregard of theme and literary devices. I'm of the opinion that the ending is simply broken. You can't fix that mess unless you actually change something in it.....

IliyaMoroumetz wrote...

So, let's change the subject.

One of the things I absolutely adored about PMC's 'A Thessian's Whisper' was how she gave Liara a real backstory. She's a sports fan, she was involved with someone that wanted to use her standing to get into the higher rungs of Asari society.

And details in the game were sparse enough about her past that it made her interesting and at the same time, an open sandbox for us to play in.

That, my friends, is good characterization.

It's actually my favorite thing about that fic. Not only did it give Liara a very varied backstory, it also expanded on the asari race in general. Everything in it was very believable. I also liked that Liara "experimented" before Shepard. I get that she's essentially a mind virgin, but her being a virgin outright for the past 106 years was a tad... unbelievable to me. So, it wasn't much of a stretch for me to go along with PMC's rendition of her.

The 106 Year Old Virgin... now there's a thought. 

I don't really think that her being a sports fan is that unbelievable. You can be a nerd an enjoy sports at the same time. I'm a nerd and played softball for about 10 years. Not all nerds are allergic to the sun or start breathing hard if they so much as jog down the driveway.  It's also stimulating to look at the strategy behind whatever sport you're watching. Such as American football. Acts a lot like chess when you boil it down....

Modifié par MidnightRaith, 12 mai 2012 - 06:04 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Sunnie22 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Tyranniac wrote...
I know it's depressing, I just wasn't expecting...

And I guess it's true that there are benifits to being pessimistic. But... I just can't help but think there's still hope. I think a reunion is rather likely, and after a lot of thinking I've decided that I would be alright with clarification of the Starchild. I don't really need it to be removed if there's a decent explanation. If the proper writers are allowed enough influence I think there's hopes for that. The smaller stuff I can deal with as long as they take care of those two things. I'm not saying it would be anywhere near what I expected, but I'd be able to accept it and enjoy the series further. Understand what I mean?

I think the unofficial Mass Effect 3 epilogue proves that even in the confines of the original. A satisfying conlusion to everything can be achieved.

Even then I have no faith in Bioware. They have already lost my trust.

See, here's the thing... They pulled off a home run with LotSB, after most of the Liara fandom was devastated and depressed with the crappy and limited interaction with Liara in ME2 proper. LotSB was a direct result of said issue fans had with what they originally did. I certainly was expecting nothing, and was blown away with what we got in that DLC.

Fast forward to the present. Here we are again, only this time its every segment of the fan base complaining about the end. Logic dictates that they should be able to pull off another LotSB-esque save with the EC. Right?
However, there are a few more things going on in this that say otherwise. Mainly, that they are not going to add any additional endings, which is a big problem for a large number of unhappy consumers. Back before LotSB, they finally said "Hey, just wait! You'll be blown away with what we are doing!", and they were right! Now all we hear is "We are not changing anything, but we will make more stuff to clarify the ending we already gave you".
See where the issue comes from? So I not only expect nothing, I actually expect more of the same crap we already have. So, if they do manage to get another one by everyone and actually fix it then I'll be happy to be blown away, again!

I think this comes up to how you interpretate "Clarification".

I took the "We will not change the ending, only clarify." as "We will not remove the catalyst, his motivations, the 3 end choices etc. We will however explain all the plotholes and provide closure to characters and the universe as a whole.". The ending are technically the same, but Bioware will provide a clearer (and far less bleak) picture of what happens.

Maybe I am just being foolish and optimistic though.

[Sunnie]

Tyranniac wrote...
And I guess it's true that there are benifits to being pessimistic. But... I just can't help but think there's still hope. I think a reunion is rather likely, and after a lot of thinking I've decided that I would be alright with clarification of the Starchild. I don't really need it to be removed if there's a decent explanation. If the proper writers are allowed enough influence I think there's hopes for that. The smaller stuff I can deal with as long as they take care of those two things. I'm not saying it would be anywhere near what I expected, but I'd be able to accept it and enjoy the series further. Understand what I mean?

I believe you are using the wrong term to describe this. Pessimistic means "anticipate a negative outcome" to put it simply. The reason it's the incorrect term is because the situation is already negative and likely can't get any worse. I am a realist, a person who understand and accepts things as they are, a pragmatist. I understand what they could do, but I have no hope for what could be mainly because they have already stated that they aren't going to actually fix it. So, nothing in, nothing out. Not pessimist, realist.

[Tyranniac]

Lizardviking wrote...

I took the "We will not change the ending, only clarify." as "We will not remove the catalyst, his motivations, the 3 end choices etc. We will however explain all the plotholes and provide closure to characters and the universe as a whole.". The ending are technically the same, but Bioware will provide a clearer (and far less bleak) picture of what happens.

Maybe I am just being foolish and optimistic though.

Don't worry, I'll be foolish and optimistic with you!

Sunnie22 wrote...

I believe you are using the wrong term to describe this. Pessimistic means "anticipate a negative outcome" to put it simply. The reason it's the incorrect term is because the situation is already negative and likely can't get any worse. I am a realist, a person who understand and accepts things as they are, a pragmatist. I understand what they could do, but I have no hope for what could be mainly because they have already stated that they aren't going to actually fix it. So, nothing in, nothing out. Not pessimist, realist.

 

Alright, if you prefer realist, then realist it is.

[Sunnie]

Lizardviking wrote...
I think this comes up to how you interpretate "Clarification".

I took the "We will not change the ending, only clarify." as "We will not remove the catalyst, his motivations, the 3 end choices etc. We will however explain all the plotholes and provide closure to characters and the universe as a whole.". The ending are technically the same, but Bioware will provide a clearer (and far less bleak) picture of what happens.

Maybe I am just being foolish and optimistic though.

In my realist world, you are trying to read between the lines and extrapolating your own hopes to fill in the huge blanks. I've been in this indusrty for a really long time, I hold no illusions of whats really going on at BioWare right now. The Studio is in panic mode and EA is breathing heavily down Myzuka's neck because the sales figures are effected by this "issue". Unfortunaly, they aren't really good at communicating with their customers, never have been (which exacerbates the problem).

Modifié par Sunnie22, 12 mai 2012 - 06:16 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Sunnie22 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...
I think this comes up to how you interpretate "Clarification".

I took the "We will not change the ending, only clarify." as "We will not remove the catalyst, his motivations, the 3 end choices etc. We will however explain all the plotholes and provide closure to characters and the universe as a whole.". The ending are technically the same, but Bioware will provide a clearer (and far less bleak) picture of what happens.

Maybe I am just being foolish and optimistic though.

In my realist world, you are trying to read between the lines and extrapolating your own hopes to fill in the huge blanks. I've been in this indusrty for a really long time, I hold no illusions of whats really going on at BioWare right now. The Studio is in panic mode and EA is breathing heavily down Myzuka's neck because the sales figures are effected by this "issue". Unfortunaly, they aren't really good at communicating with their customers, never have been (which exacerbates the problem).

That is sadly a strong possibility.

Though hearing that the VAs of Ash, Kaidan and EDI are returning gives me some degree of hope that they are not ust phoning it in.

[MidnightRaith]

Lizardviking wrote...

I think this comes up to how you interpretate "Clarification".

I took the "We will not change the ending, only clarify." as "We will not remove the catalyst, his motivations, the 3 end choices etc. We will however explain all the plotholes and provide closure to characters and the universe as a whole.". The ending are technically the same, but Bioware will provide a clearer (and far less bleak) picture of what happens.

Maybe I am just being foolish and optimistic though.

Ehh.... I don't know if many people will be happy with BW simply focusing on what are essentially the minor plotholes. Even the Normandy crash is minor to the Starchild. It is that character that actively creates the vast majority of the problems in the ending. He is the one that delivers that asinine theory as the end all Mass Effect "theme." He is the one that is introduced so late in the game that it jars most players from the plot. Where did he come from? Why isn't there any evidence of the Reapers being controlled by him throughout the series? It is him and Synthesis that break away from Mass Effect lore the most. Both Starchild and Synthesis give the same taste to the audience as bad fanfiction.

I will wait for EC, but I'm not going to be crushed if we don't like it. I'll admit that I'll be elated if it turns out to be any good whatsoever, though....

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

MidnightRaith wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

I think this comes up to how you interpretate "Clarification".

I took the "We will not change the ending, only clarify." as "We will not remove the catalyst, his motivations, the 3 end choices etc. We will however explain all the plotholes and provide closure to characters and the universe as a whole.". The ending are technically the same, but Bioware will provide a clearer (and far less bleak) picture of what happens.

Maybe I am just being foolish and optimistic though.

Ehh.... I don't know if many people will be happy with BW simply focusing on what are essentially the minor plotholes. Even the Normandy crash is minor to the Starchild. It is that character that actively creates the vast majority of the problems in the ending. He is the one that delivers that asinine theory as the end all Mass Effect "theme." He is the one that is introduced so late in the game that it jars most players from the plot. Where did he come from? Why isn't there any evidence of the Reapers being controlled by him throughout the series? It is him and Synthesis that break away from Mass Effect lore the most. Both Starchild and Synthesis give the same taste to the audience as bad fanfiction.

I will wait for EC, but I'm not going to be crushed if we don't like it. I'll admit that I'll be elated if it turns out to be any good whatsoever, though....

It is true that Bioware has their work cut out for them. I cannot imagine them giving any kind of satisfying answer to why Joker and our two squadmates left the field of battle. Since these events directly contradicts the characterization of the characters.

[IliyaMoroumetz]

The only thing I'll say about the EC is that even if they hit it out of the park, BW lost a LOT of consumer good will. It'll take them years of work and excellent games to gain that back, but even then, there will be long time BW fans who will have lost all confidence in them and never purchase another game from them again.  It's the price you pay for 'artistic integrity', I suppose.

Heck, some people even cancelled their Old Republic subscriptions in protest to the endings. Yes, it got that bad with some people.

Modifié par IliyaMoroumetz, 12 mai 2012 - 06:35 .

[Theodoro]

Lizardviking wrote...
It is true that Bioware has their work cut out for them. I cannot imagine them giving any kind of satisfying answer to why Joker and our two squadmates left the field of battle. Since these events directly contradicts the characterization of the characters.

How true. I have no idea how they're going to do that, or more specifically, how they're going to explain how the two squad members along with you on the run to the Citadel beam survive the blast, how Joker managed to pick them up (I specifically remember Anderson saying that an interference is preventing any kind of air support) and what happens between that event and the energy release of the Crucible.

What I think will happen is that Joker will somehow understand that Shepard is alive and try in some way or another to contact him/her, but ultimately fails (though that doesn't explain how Hackett is able to contact Shepard while on the Citadel; if he could, the Normandy and its crew would be able to, as well) and flies towards the Citadel when suddenly it begins to spread the energy burst, swears and turns around the ship instinctively and somehow crashes on that planet. That's discounting the ridiculous probability that they would just stumble upon a planet with breathable atmosphere somewhere close to Earth that the Alliance hadn't found yet.

Lizardviking wrote...
I took the "We will not change the ending, only clarify." as "We will not remove the catalyst, his motivations, the 3 end choices etc. We will however explain all the plotholes and provide closure to characters and the universe as a whole.". The ending are technically the same, but Bioware will provide a clearer (and far less bleak) picture of what happens.

Frankly, it's the Catalyst, his motivations and the ending choices that I want explained most of all. How's something like that even possible? They just can't explain it and they know it, that's why the'd rather keep this ending instead.

Modifié par Theodoro, 12 mai 2012 - 06:44 .

[Tyranniac]

Theodoro wrote...

How true. I have no idea how they're going to do that, or more specifically, how they're going to explain how the two squad members along with you on the run to the Citadel beam survive the blast, how Joker managed to pick them up (I specifically remember Anderson saying that an interference is preventing any kind of air support) and what happens between that event and the energy release of the Crucible.

What I think will happen is that Joker will somehow understand that Shepard is alive and try in some way or another to contact him/her, but ultimately fails (though that doesn't explain how Hackett is able to contact Shepard while on the Citadel; if he could, the Normandy and its crew would be able to, as well) and flies towards the Citadel when suddenly it begins to spread the energy burst, swears and turns around the ship instinctively and somehow crashes on that planet. That's discounting the ridiculous probability that they would just stumble upon a planet with breathable atmosphere somewhere close to Earth that the Alliance hadn't found yet.

I don't really have that much of a problem with this part, sure it's a plothole, but as long as they allow for a reunion with the crew and explain the Starchild and the Reapers more, it's acceptable to me.

We're getting really off-topic now though... can't think of anything to amend that however. 

Modifié par Tyranniac, 12 mai 2012 - 06:46 .

[lillitheris]

Why y‘all gotta depress me here too

[Ecrulis]

 Its kind of frightening for me how much id be willing to ignore if theres a way for shepard to reunite with his crew specifically LI 

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Theodoro wrote...
Frankly, it's the Catalyst, his motivations and the ending choices that I want explained most of all. How's something like that even possible? They just can't explain it and they know it, that's why the'd rather keep this ending instead.

The catalyst's dialog made more sense in the earlier versions, believe it or not.

[Dude on Fire]

Ecrulis wrote...

 Its kind of frightening for me how much id be willing to ignore if theres a way for shepard to reunite with his crew specifically LI 

Exactly. I'd probably be satisfied if Shepard, in some undefined way, just got up and started Superman-flying to the planet that the crew is on.

[Theodoro]

Tyranniac wrote...

I don't really have that much of a problem with this part, sure it's a plothole, but as long as they allow for a reunion with the crew and explain the Starchild and the Reapers more, it's acceptable to me.

I'm sure that I'm in the minority here, but I'd take an ending that actually makes sense and is believable to the overall story and theme of the Mass Effect universe over a nonsensical space magic happy ending any day, even if it's a sad conclusion.

Oh, believe me, I want a happy ending for Shepard and his/her crew, along with all the races of the galaxy, but I want it done right. It's what the franchise deserves, in my opinion.

Top:

Modifié par Theodoro, 12 mai 2012 - 06:55 .

[DOsquareZER]

Ecrulis wrote...

 Its kind of frightening for me how much id be willing to ignore if theres a way for shepard to reunite with his crew specifically LI 

*blinks* ...no.  Accepting that frame of mind would make me feel... no diffrent then if I chose the "running away and let the reapers reap the galaxy while I hide wiht my LI"  ending.  Accepting such a concept of ignoring all the plotholes, story, theme elements, CGI story stuttering would make any romance reunion tainted and shameful to the overall glory of the story/galaxy of Mass Effect.
The fans, developers, characters - they all deserve(d) better... it's a shame we/it will probably never get better because of you know...artistic integrity.  Cant fix art, it was never broken - you just don't get it.

Modifié par doozer12, 12 mai 2012 - 07:01 .