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Liara Fans: keep your love blue and true!


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#36801
TheMarshal

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MidnightRaith wrote...

I would like to weigh in on the asari culture vs human culture topic.

Honestly, I don't like it very much when fics have Shepard completely adopting asari culture and letting his/her own fall to the side. I find it a bit unrealistic. On a personal note, I am biracial and while I was raised primarily in one culture, that doesn't mean the other culture was completely ignored. I think the same would work here for Shepard and Liara as a couple and with a family. Perhaps they'd even strike for a balance.

It kind of irritated me when Aethyta became angry when Shepard tells her she'd be called the mother as well as far as humans are concerned. We have two genders and our society is largely patriarchal. Of course we'd insist on a difference. But, then again, this is Aethyta. She doesn't exactly come across as the tolerant asari trope....

Anyway, this goes back to my original point. I really have a hard time reading fics in which the authors state that Femshep goes by father. Is it just me, or doesn't that seem a bit unrealistic? She's human and just because I play the ultra-tolerant, understanding Paragon Shep, that doesn't mean I'm able to accept Shepard referring to herself as such. Especially a Colonist or Spacer Femshep. "Father" is very masculine, in a human's point of view and when you're also raised with a father and are exposed to the masculine and patriarchal human parenting techniques, I would think that would be difficult for a Femshep to accept. While I don't think that any Femshep is largely feminine, her accepting the patriarchal and masculine parental title is way on the otherside of the spectrum, in my opinion.

It just wouldn't fit Femshep's human culture and goes back to my point that I don't believe Liara and Shepard would just go against it. Yes, Shepard would largely accept Liara's culture, I'm not doubting that at all. However, this is an interspecies couple. It would kind of defeat the purpose of their being so if they ignored one of their cultures in favor of the other. Not to mention a tad disrespectful. Liara might as well have fallen in love with another asari. Or Shepard another human. I believe that some of their attraction to the other is each other's culture.

Of course, Manshep wouldn't have this problem, but there are other aspects of it. For instance, I'd like to think that Shepard and Liara would hyphenate their names. They'd probably raise their kids in both asari and human culture. Maybe they wouldn't actually move to Thessia but perhaps a planet that feature many species and many cultures. I'm just saying that neither needs to give up a part of themselves here. Liara is an alien, however Shepard is also a human. Ignoring one fact over the other would cheapen them both, in my opinion.


I, too, dislike it when Shepard completely abandons his/her human culture and wholeheartedly adopts the asari culture, to the point where Shepard is actually treated as an asari (thankfully, only one/two such fics that I've come across are guilty of this).  In my eyes, the asari culture is all about plurality, enriching one's own culture by acknowledging and accepting others'.  It's for this reason that I like to think of any children that Shep and Liara have as being raised in a wildly multicultural setting, with many races all going to the same school together.

That said, I like the idea of FemShep calling herself "dad".  I like the idea of FemShep proposing to Liara in the asari way.  It's acknowledging the others' culture without completely abandoning their own.  Of course, my Alice Shepard has no family to speak of (go Earthborns!) so it's not like she's really giving up any traditions.

#36802
recentio

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Erenbe wrote...

Akernis wrote...
*words*

*snipi1*
*snipi2*

Posted Image

I am a bit ambivalent on this last one. Excelent work, but that sexualisation just touches a nerve in me... man I am too sensitive for my own good Posted Image 
Also that damn N7 icon again...Posted Image


isn't the last pic not just one of these "i take a random picture with a woman and photoshop it to have Liara's color and mount her head on it" images? Personally, I don't like them. It's just not Liara. Well, maybe it is the overly sexualisation that you mention that kind of give me the creeps but I just don't get a Liara-vibe from it :? There are several of these around and all of them fall flat. I guess I prefer the in-game model renderings from our resident photoshop/3DMax masters. :)


::peeks out timidly, whispers:: i like it...

#36803
Arlionis

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Just came back to the forum after a big break, what's with all those ridiculous "too much Liara" threads? do these people realize Liara was almost left out from the ME2 main game so she could serve as the familiar face in ME3?

Those threads are so infantile and ridiculous.

#36804
N172

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Erenbe wrote...

It's just not Liara. Well, maybe it is the overly sexualisation that you mention that kind of give me the creeps but I just don't get a Liara-vibe from it [...] I prefer the in-game model renderings from our resident photoshop/3DMax masters. :)

Same here, i dont think Liara whould wear something like this at all.

@Akernis: thx:)

#36805
Aristobulus500

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Arlionis wrote...

Just came back to the forum after a big break, what's with all those ridiculous "too much Liara" threads? do these people realize Liara was almost left out from the ME2 main game so she could serve as the familiar face in ME3?

Those threads are so infantile and ridiculous.


As I've said before, it's just pure spite and jealousy. It's incredibly petty.

They aren't even right, which is the hilarious thing. I now know for a fact that Liara is not Bioware's "Golden Girl" and didn't get any special treatment.

#36806
Arlionis

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Aristobulus500 wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

Just came back to the forum after a big break, what's with all those ridiculous "too much Liara" threads? do these people realize Liara was almost left out from the ME2 main game so she could serve as the familiar face in ME3?

Those threads are so infantile and ridiculous.


As I've said before, it's just pure spite and jealousy. It's incredibly petty.

They aren't even right, which is the hilarious thing. I now know for a fact that Liara is not Bioware's "Golden Girl" and didn't get any special treatment.


Exactly, they seem to forget Liara was "sacrificed" from ME2 so they can save her for ME3, or that during most of the mid game she has almost no dialog. It's ridiculous. 

#36807
Aristobulus500

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And that all of those scenes that make them wig out are actually exactly the same for us Liaramancers. Lolf.

Thessia, Post Thessia, The Beacon, most of the mid game...

And that Tuchanka and Rannoch are huge, fleshed out areas with many missions and and their respective character gets a lot to do there, and can react to Shepard in a variety of ways especially if, say, on Rannoch Shep is romancing Tali.

Whereas Liara gets one mission on Thessia and it's not any different at all if you're romancing her!

Golden Girl my ass. She may have a lot of screen time but it sho nuff ain't as an LI.

#36808
MidnightRaith

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TheMarshal wrote...

I, too, dislike it when Shepard completely abandons his/her human culture and wholeheartedly adopts the asari culture, to the point where Shepard is actually treated as an asari (thankfully, only one/two such fics that I've come across are guilty of this).  In my eyes, the asari culture is all about plurality, enriching one's own culture by acknowledging and accepting others'.  It's for this reason that I like to think of any children that Shep and Liara have as being raised in a wildly multicultural setting, with many races all going to the same school together.

That said, I like the idea of FemShep calling herself "dad".  I like the idea of FemShep proposing to Liara in the asari way.  It's acknowledging the others' culture without completely abandoning their own.  Of course, my Alice Shepard has no family to speak of (go Earthborns!) so it's not like she's really giving up any traditions.


Perhaps Earthborn Femshep would have an easier time with it, but I primarily role Spacer Femsheps whose background state that she was raised by both of her parents. With that in mind, I really have trouble with the "dad" title. Why is that really necessary? Femshep is a human. An asari would undoubtly not have a problem with this, but humanity is an entirely different species with gender roles. I don't know, the majority of Liara/Femshep family fics have her being referred to as a father. I think it would be interesting to see a fic where Femshep struggles with that role and ultimately decide that she doesn't have to act it. She really doesn't. It almost seems like the fans heard Aethyta's line about her being the father that they went overboard and insisted that Femshep MUST also be a father as well.

I just don't think it would go over as smoothly as they depicted. Spacer and Colonist Shep are raised by families. These families would have taught Shep about gender roles. While I realize that female and male gender roles probably would have gotten much closer in the Mass Effect universe than RL, I would think that as far as parenting is concerned, the differences in gender roles would stay largely the same. Psychologically, women and men raise children in significantly different ways. Femshep would know these differences and may have trouble reconciling them with her personally. I don't think she'd see it simply as a title and she'd also have maternal instincts. What happens when Shepard wants to mother her children as well as Liara? Another problem I have with some fics with kids. They have Femshep adopting paternal instincs like she's mainly made up of testosterone or something.

I disagree about the dad thing going against human culture. We do have gender roles despite efforts to make genders more equal. It's that way for a reason because of the significant differences between men and women biologically and psychologically. Men and women are different. Asari probably have a problem realizing this considering Aethyta's comment. Liara may even have trouble realizing this. While they also have maternal instincts, they wouldn't have nearly as much trouble adopting paternal titles to themselves because they are all monogendered. A human female would simply because of history and culture and the fact that we do have genders. It's really a two-way street here. All those talks about the asari and their monogender society we have in here need to be reversed for our gender roled society when we're talking about humans.

#36809
Brooks Mac

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Finally got to play Mass Effect 1. Liara was such an adorable nerd back then! <3

#36810
coatsworth

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Aristobulus500 wrote...

And that all of those scenes that make them wig out are actually exactly the same for us Liaramancers. Lolf.

Thessia, Post Thessia, The Beacon, most of the mid game...

And that Tuchanka and Rannoch are huge, fleshed out areas with many missions and and their respective character gets a lot to do there, and can react to Shepard in a variety of ways especially if, say, on Rannoch Shep is romancing Tali.

Whereas Liara gets one mission on Thessia and it's not any different at all if you're romancing her!

Golden Girl my ass. She may have a lot of screen time but it sho nuff ain't as an LI.


I felt bad for Liara because she HAD one mission and i was like REALLY Bioware I waited for this, felt like i got shot not once but twice.:unsure:

#36811
adneate

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MidnightRaith wrote...
I would like to weigh in on the asari culture vs human culture topic.


Well coming from a big military family who've both travelled and settled in other parts of the world I can weigh in on the subject of cultural "abandonment". Honestly when you're in a foreign land immersed in a foreign culture you cast off lots of things over time, without even thinking about it. You pick up vernacular, you begin to adopt or incorporate other dress styles that would be naturally more suited to the climate and culture. The desire to fit in is pretty damn powerful, when you are say the only Caucasian living in a predominantly Asian area you don't want to draw even more attention to yourself by dressing like some stupid Canadian tourist.

Certainly you bring or incorporate things from your culture, big holidays like Christmas tend to translate well but in general your day to day lifestyle radically alters. Even your tolerences alter, some of my relatives who've lived overseas in South Korea or The Phillipines for years are as out of place as their spouse when they vist Canada in the dead of January. It's a fairly common trend that once you're totally immersed in a foreign culture you will adopt a lot of it's customs and practices. Mainly because your own culture is imparted in the same way, if you're surrounded by it and everyone acts a certain way you'll act like them too given enough time. However it's also because some of those practices just make more sense then the ones from back home, they aren't always being done for completely arbitrary reasons.

You take Shepard and plop her down on Thessia with Liara, after about a decade there she'd dress, act and eat pretty damn similarly to the Asari that would surround her. She'd always be "Human" in the sense my family members overseas will always be "Canadian" but when they're over there they are Their Canadian, not The Canadian.

#36812
MidnightRaith

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adneate wrote...

Well coming from a big military family who've both travelled and settled in other parts of the world I can weigh in on the subject of cultural "abandonment". Honestly when you're in a foreign land immersed in a foreign culture you cast off lots of things over time, without even thinking about it. You pick up vernacular, you begin to adopt or incorporate other dress styles that would be naturally more suited to the climate and culture. The desire to fit in is pretty damn powerful, when you are say the only Caucasian living in a predominantly Asian area you don't want to draw even more attention to yourself by dressing like some stupid Canadian tourist.

Certainly you bring or incorporate things from your culture, big holidays like Christmas tend to translate well but in general your day to day lifestyle radically alters. Even your tolerences alter, some of my relatives who've lived overseas in South Korea or The Phillipines for years are as out of place as their spouse when they vist Canada in the dead of January. It's a fairly common trend that once you're totally immersed in a foreign culture you will adopt a lot of it's customs and practices. Mainly because your own culture is imparted in the same way, if you're surrounded by it and everyone acts a certain way you'll act like them too given enough time. However it's also because some of those practices just make more sense then the ones from back home, they aren't always being done for completely arbitrary reasons.

You take Shepard and plop her down on Thessia with Liara, after about a decade there she'd dress, act and eat pretty damn similarly to the Asari that would surround her. She'd always be "Human" in the sense my family members overseas will always be "Canadian" but when they're over there they are Their Canadian, not The Canadian.


This is probably exactly what happened to my great-grandparents when the immigrated from Germany. They also had the added pressure of acting American because they came here right after WWII..... Yeah, Granny didn't know too much German by the time I met her.

However, do we even know if Shepard or Liara want to live on Thessia after the war? By the series end, we're exposed to a variety of different alien species and cultures and I rather like all of them. And I role my Shepard the same way. She'd want to live in a place like the Citadel, where there's a bit of a melting pot of different cultures and species running around. However, maybe that's 'cause I'm an American and I live in a country like that anyway....

#36813
adneate

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MidnightRaith wrote...
However, do we even know if Shepard or Liara want to live on Thessia after the war? By the series end, we're exposed to a variety of different alien species and cultures and I rather like all of them. And I role my Shepard the same way. She'd want to live in a place like the Citadel, where there's a bit of a melting pot of different cultures and species running around. However, maybe that's 'cause I'm an American and I live in a country like that anyway....


That does depend on the person, the devs certainly aren't going to come down one way or the other, I can certainly see arguments for a diverse settlement and why they might prefer a more Asari centric. It also heavily depends on a particular Shepard's impression of Asari culture. Historically "High Culture" societies like China and Persia dominated those who lived within their influence, be they vistors, immigrants or conquers. The Crusaders for example set out specifically to capture the East from what they viewed as godless heathens who barely even qualified as human beings. Within a few generations the royal court of Jerusalem had adopted many of the east's practices in dress, dining and even medicine. To the point those back West saw them as decadent and immoral, living in luxuary behind the great walls of Jerusalem.

If a particular Shepard has a very favourable impression of Asari culture over their own they'd be that much more likely to cast off their old culture and totally embrace it. Weak cultural attachements can also be a motivator to assimilate, an Earthborn or Colonist  with no surviving family would certainly find a great deal of comfort in just having Aetheya as a mother-in-law or any other family Liara might still have left. They'd certainly seek this new family's approval and would adjust to the adopted family's culture and traditions. Colonists might also be more easy to assimilate living on remote world's far from the human centric culture storm of Earth. They might not be fully connected with human culture living very rural isolated lives in the attican traverse far from the hustle and bustle of Earth.

It depends on the person, the environment they came from and the culture they are surrounding themselves with.

#36814
kyg_20X6

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Love the discussion going on in here!

#36815
Yuqi

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I honestly cannot see Shep being mentally stable after the war..The survivors guilt would be intense, and he/she could possibly be suicidal. In ME3 Shepard (Headcannon aside) is already showing signs of PTSD. I just cant see Shepard returning to the military.

http://ProudPastry.d...r-Ass-302210869

by proudpastry.

Modifié par Yuqi, 15 mai 2012 - 04:38 .


#36816
TheMarshal

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Probably true, Yuqi, which is maybe why it's for the best that they left the survival "ambiguous" at the end. Of course, that hasn't stopped me from assuming a Mega-Happy Ending™ for all headcanon purposes!

#36817
fluffywalrus

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Yuqi wrote...

I honestly cannot see Shep being mentally stable after the war..The survivors guilt would be intense, and he/she could possibly be suicidal. In ME3 Shepard (Headcannon aside) is already showing signs of PTSD. I just cant see Shepard returning to the military.

http://ProudPastry.d...r-Ass-302210869
by proudpastry.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Shep would be pretty fragile for a long time afterward. Dunno about suicidal, it's a possibility especially if a lot of her friends didn't make it. PTSD though is something that would greatly affect Shepard. As you said, she's definitely suffering from it in ME3, and it will only get worse when she doesn't have an outlet to battle it.

That's honestly one of the reasons why I feel Liara would be best for Shepard; she could help her through it with melding, and she's patient and devoted, and is a very very strong biotic.

But yeah, no way she goes back to the military. Shep would do the Alliance no good by imploding in public.

#36818
adneate

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Yuqi wrote...
I honestly cannot see Shep being mentally stable after the war..The survivors guilt would be intense, and he/she could possibly be suicidal. In ME3 Shepard (Headcannon aside) is already showing signs of PTSD. I just cant see Shepard returning to the military.


PTSD is not a death sentence nor is it something that has to ruin your life, it's a mental condition. Treatable like any other, it has a very complex series of possible triggers as well as symptoms.

Shepard's is very mild with the only symptom being vivid dreams, Shepard didn't have any triggers as far as I could tell. No particular sound or event caused a flashback or made her lose control, even the dreams are minor. Unless of course we believe ME3 took place over 3 days, which doesn't seem very likely. I see nothing that indicates long term debilitating mental illness.

Bad dreams because you can't save everyone during the apocalyse doesn't really cut it for me, in terms of the whole being mentally wrote off thing. Shepard probably suffers more from overwork and stress than anything else, not getting enough sleep can really screw with your head. Retiring would probably do wonders for Shepard.

#36819
rubynorman

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Obsidian Gryphon wrote...

Ecrulis wrote...

Obsidian Gryphon wrote...

I know I'm tired but I'm seeing doubles. Posted Image


Nope its just you, you're seeing double, just how much did you have to drink? :whistle:

EDIT: Ack Top! Ill post a picture from my collection of screenies when I get home from work :)



Man, if I'm drunk, I'll be seeing quads. Posted Image Kaffee anyone? Posted Image

I'm sorry I used my phone yesterday to post that reply :P
Posted Image

New picture from HumanGrotesque :wub:

#36820
Yuqi

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TheMarshal wrote...

Probably true, Yuqi, which is maybe why it's for the best that they left the survival "ambiguous" at the end. Of course, that hasn't stopped me from assuming a Mega-Happy Ending™ for all headcanon purposes!


I I gave it alot of thought, and  I just can't see Shepard being fully 'sane' ever again. If they gave a rainbows and pony ending I would have beeen so mad.

P.S: When are you going to update: Returned?

#36821
The Star Treker

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Is this a good looking MShep standing next to lovely Miss T'Soni or what? :D

Posted Image

The original photo:
Posted Image

#36822
Yuqi

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rubynorman wrote...

Posted Image

New picture from HumanGrotesque :wub:


That artist is awsome.

fluffywalrus wrote...

*Snip*

That's honestly one of the reasons why I feel Liara would be best for Shepard; she could help her through it with melding, and she's patient and devoted, and is a very very strong biotic.

But yeah, no way she goes back to the military. Shep would do the Alliance no good by imploding in public.


Yep thats what I think too.

adneate wrote...

Yuqi wrote...
I honestly cannot see Shep being mentally stable after the war..The survivors guilt would be intense, and he/she could possibly be suicidal. In ME3 Shepard (Headcannon aside) is already showing signs of PTSD. I just cant see Shepard returning to the military.


PTSD is not a death sentence nor is it something that has to ruin your life, it's a mental condition. Treatable like any other, it has a very complex series of possible triggers as well as symptoms.

Shepard's is very mild with the only symptom being vivid dreams, Shepard didn't have any triggers as far as I could tell. No particular sound or event caused a flashback or made her lose control, even the dreams are minor. Unless of course we believe ME3 took place over 3 days, which doesn't seem very likely. I see nothing that indicates long term debilitating mental illness.

Bad dreams because you can't save everyone during the apocalyse doesn't really cut it for me, in terms of the whole being mentally wrote off thing. Shepard probably suffers more from overwork and stress than anything else, not getting enough sleep can really screw with your head. Retiring would probably do wonders for Shepard.


If you start a new non-import game in me3 you have to pick a 'combat loss' and in the writing it mentions the 'loss' is having a pyscological effect on shepard.

#36823
TheMarshal

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Yuqi wrote...

TheMarshal wrote...

Probably true, Yuqi, which is maybe why it's for the best that they left the survival "ambiguous" at the end. Of course, that hasn't stopped me from assuming a Mega-Happy Ending™ for all headcanon purposes!


I I gave it alot of thought, and  I just can't see Shepard being fully 'sane' ever again. If they gave a rainbows and pony ending I would have beeen so mad.

P.S: When are you going to update: Returned?


Much as it pains me to admit, I understand why they didn't show anything after the ending of the Reapers.  There's just too much that would be personal to each Shepard for them to satisfy any significant portion of the fanbase.

As for Returned...  I've unfortunately come upon a very busy part of the quarter for grad school.  I almost had the entire next chapter written up but decided to scrap it when I realized it wasn't painting quite the picture I was hoping.  I'm working on the next chapter and outlines for the rest of the story between the school papers that I've got to do.  Lousy grad school getting in the way of all my non-school stuffs!

#36824
adneate

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Yuqi wrote...
If you start a new non-import game in me3 you have to pick a 'combat loss' and in the writing it mentions the 'loss' is having a pyscological effect on shepard.


Which as many people have said on many other parts of the forum doesn't add up very well, I have a hard time picturing a military commander being plagued by the loss of one person in combat. To the point of insanity. The game itself isn't some slaughterhouse there is one mandatory death in the game, which is on Rannoch either Tali or Legion have to die.

Though if you gave Legion to Cerberus it's just some stupid Geth VI with no personality, so the one mandatory death can be totally empty. Like somone "killing" a toaster oven, who cares?

The whole PTSD thing is so weak and so poorly done it was just asking people to think it was indoctrination, otherwise we have to accept the reality that BioWare thinks we're supposed to be torn up about some mush faced little brat that we didn't even see die.

#36825
Yuqi

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adneate wrote...

Yuqi wrote...
If you start a new non-import game in me3 you have to pick a 'combat loss' and in the writing it mentions the 'loss' is having a pyscological effect on shepard.


Which as many people have said on many other parts of the forum doesn't add up very well, I have a hard time picturing a military commander being plagued by the loss of one person in combat. To the point of insanity. The game itself isn't some slaughterhouse there is one mandatory death in the game, which is on Rannoch either Tali or Legion have to die.

Though if you gave Legion to Cerberus it's just some stupid Geth VI with no personality, so the one mandatory death can be totally empty. Like somone "killing" a toaster oven, who cares?

The whole PTSD thing is so weak and so poorly done it was just asking people to think it was indoctrination, otherwise we have to accept the reality that BioWare thinks we're supposed to be torn up about some mush faced little brat that we didn't even see die.


I think it needed improvment certainly, but I can see what they were 'trying to do'. if they  had elaborated on it more instead of  what they have now, then the controversy would start a shi%storm.