56459 réponses à ce sujet

[Theodoro]

@MidnightRaith:

Well, I do agree on most of your points that expose the plot holes of the Indoctrination Theory. However, I'll personally take almost anything over the ending we have now. Contrary to what most people think, the IT is not an ending - it merely leads to one that needs to happen right afterwards. So, yeah - BioWare just shipped us a game with no ending in that case, so I'll agree here.

However, if that was what BioWare intended, and it was done in a better manner, and it was shipped with the rest of the game, I think it would have been a mind-blowing twist. You're saying that nobody has fought off indoctrination before, but I think I can recall someone who almost did - Benezia. And I think that a strong enough mind and a strong will, which Shepard clearly has, can be used to resist the process. Just because we don't see anyone doing it doesn't mean it's not possible, and we clearly haven't seen two people acting as two parts of a person's mind because we control Shepard, and he/she hasn't been in such a conflict before. A lot of potential there.

However, I'll have been perfectly fine with an ending without a twist - one that made sense and that just involved sending the Reapers to hell. I don't think Mass Effect 3 really required such a cliff-hanger in the first place. Anyway, I apologize for going further into this, as it's Liara's thread we're obviously in, but even with all its flaws, I'd still take IT over StarChild & Space Magic any day.

Modifié par Theodoro, 23 mai 2012 - 09:06 .

[kyg_20X6]

Theodoro wrote...

What would you guys want to see happen in the Extended Cut if you had taken Liara on the run to the Citadel beam? How would she be picked up by the Normandy and how would she react to Joker heading towards the Mass Relay and leaving Shepard behind?

My vision:

Show scene (before Shepard gets up) of Harbinger's blast seperating squad with Shepard, and forcing them (reluctantly, LI even more so) to fall back. Hackett gives the order for them to fall all the way back to the firebase and Shepard's squad to evac to the Normandy.

After Shepard opens the arms, Hackett contacts her/him (already in-game). Since Hackett knows Shepard is alive, he orders the Normandy to assist/rescue the Commander (LI, if in squad, shown overjoyed and eager).

Shepard makes their choice. If they choose control/synthesis/destroy w/low ems, their lifesigns disappear as the Normandy approaches and the Normandy pulls back (squad/LI distraught). If Shepard lives, the squad that was with her/him on Earth hops out and pulls them from the rubble (special dialogue if LI in squd). With Crucible powering up, and they don't know what it does, Hackett orders Sword & Shield forces that can disengage to retreat beyond the Charon relay.

On the uncharted world, if Shepard is alive, either: show Shepard (after Joker and other squadmate exit) being helped out of the Normandy (by LI, if onboard, or 'most popular' squadmate), or you can have scenes with Shepard in the med-bay. Either way, these would be followed by epilogue scenes of the Shepard/LI/squad discussing where they go from here. Maybe show Alliance shuttles finding the Normandy, landing and evacing the crew.

I can't really come up with more, as I don't know what BW plan to do with the mass relays. IDK, if they're destroyed, disabled, working, or what. Thus, can't really say how you'd work in the people back in Sol.

[MidnightRaith]

Tyranniac wrote...

MidnightRaith wrote...

...yet another debate about IT. Something I think will soon happen in this one.... However, for someone...

Doubt you have to worry about that. I advice that you stop discussing it however because that certainly might lead to thread derailing.

Let's be on-topic!

Yes, yes, I'm sorry. But, whew, that did need to get off my chest. I feel better now. 

I do also think that keeping the conception after the war is the best choice. However doing before Cronos, would probably be the BETTER one, rather than having it in the middle of dying soldiers and all that. At least they would be alone in the former situation.

[Theodoro]

CrimsonN7 wrote...
Liara's gift scene in London, hope she took my Shep's genetic code then and there, my Shep would have wanted Liara to have her kid.

How did people actually come to the conclusion that Liara raped or conceived in London's gift scene? I mean, that's preposterous. First, she clearly says that all she wants to do is preserve a memory. I don't think she'd take it as far as take Shepard's genetic code and have a child without her knowing. That's something that they would discuss and plan for. It makes no sense and it's so anti-climatic. I'd rather have her conceive during the love scene before Cronos Station.

In the end, it's out-of-character for Liara, no matter how you look at it.

Modifié par Theodoro, 23 mai 2012 - 09:09 .

[Tyranniac]

MidnightRaith wrote...

I do also think that keeping the conception after the war is the best choice. However doing before Cronos, would probably be the BETTER one, rather than having it in the middle of dying soldiers and all that. At least they would be alone in the former situation.

Yeah, I agree, it it'd have to be one of them, then before Cronos Station is certainly better. I also think there would have been more of a reaction during the London goodbye if it had been a conception. I figure it's a fairly intense experience.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

doozer12 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

CrimsonN7 wrote...
Liara's gift scene in London, hope she took my Shep's genetic code then and there, my Shep would have wanted Liara to have her kid.

I am quite okay with people hoping that Liara and Shepard concieved a child, but of all the places people wanted it to happen they think its London? Instead of what might be their last night together before Cronos station, people would rather have it be in the makeshift infirmary where the wounded soldiers are more likely than moaning in agony.

Sorry, just something I always found strange.

As opposed to the eve of a final fatalistic battle where the real possibility that either parent has a high percentage of dying the following day (or two or three, everything after thessia was kind of rushed and i have trouble establishing a time line)?  Granted the scene is full of love and time-pausing happiness but...thinkking on a larger picture - neither situation would be an acceptable time for baby making, too many variables.  Mind-easing, calming, affection saturated love making (both mind meld and physical) ...thats about all i can accept them as.  A moment of peace in hectic times, an even greater comfort to my shepard than the promise of a future legacy (which liara has all ready kind of done with the little black box gift she gave)

I am not really arguing for or against it, or calling it a bad idea for those that want it.

I just thought it was strange for those that support blue-baby making during ME3 to think that it should happen in the middle of war-torn London instead of the night before Cronos station.

[Theodoro]

@kyg_20X6:

I can see that happening - one of the things that bummed me out is that your squad doesn't seem to care that you're most probably dead, especially your LI, and I would like to see that rectified in the Extended Cut with tons of more dialogue and cutscenes centering around your crew. I like your idea of how things would play out with each of the endings and EMS ratings.

What I'm hoping for is that Shepard would actually be able to contact the Normandy and his/her LI in some way before making the dreadful choice. After all, Hackett was able to get in touch with him/her. That way, if you don't have enough EMS for Shepard to live or simply don't like Destroy, he/she would be able to have a few last words with his/her crew and his/her LI.

[Aristobulus500]

I really don't think, even for a romanced Shep, that any conceiving happens in London. If it does, it happens on the night before Cronos station. London was just a chance for them to have a deep personal moment together, in a very intimate meld. The last chance for them to get away from it all for a bit.

[fluffywalrus]

Theodoro wrote...

MidnightRaith wrote...
On a side note, am I one of the few that absolutely cannot stand IT?

Why can't you stand it? It's about BioWare's only saving throw out of the much more horrible ending we have now.

Not MidnightRaith, but I'm just going to piggyback this a bit.

I've spent a few hours reading and absorbing IT, and it's never settled well with me. I'd prefer the current ending reworked and make sense than the real ending being tied to Indoctrination theory.

I would prefer to believe that Bioware was lazy in writing the last 10 or so minutes of the game, than to believe they were lazy writing the entirety of ME3 and the Arrival DLC for ME2. IT reads like a conspiracy theory to me; people tweaking what scraps of lore they can to make things fit. It screams of desperation, and works entirely against Occam's Razor, which I could accept for a few instances across a game, but not an entire game.

I would prefer to believe the ending was simply rushed, that they were intentionally vague to allow people to fill in the blanks, without actually considering if they left a strong enough foundation for people to do so.

I'd prefer to believe that my Shepard has the ability to end the war, rather than lying face down and haf-dead in some rubble on London's surface while the Reapers annihilate Hammer and Sword maliciously. I'd like to believe that the final act in the series has an end. An actual end according to normal plot progression.

If IT is real, I think I'd be incredibly more disgusted with Bioware than I am now. I understood why they did what they did(or at least, it makes sense to me), but they failed to provide enough lead-in and a way out in that final decision. I liked the idea of an unconventional sacrifice, I think it's only fitting that an unconventional device to destroy the reapers would provide an unconventional manner of victory over them. My heart broke at the cost, each time I played that ending, but I could understand it if it was just a rushed ending.

IT, to me, has too many inconsistencies and relies on single sample occurances that are heavily open to interpretation in order to be remotely consistent. It's not nearly as dug in and consistent as the organics vs synthetics theme that's been present throughout the entire series...constantly evolving as your Shep makes the decisions she or he makes. It just lacked a proper lead-in, more explanation of why the Catalyst is what it is, and it lacks a way out that is fitting for the character you've played.

I can handle the heartache of making hard, unexpected decisions in ME3. I don't know if I could handle being backhanded by Bioware overriding my experience in 1/3 of their series.

In the end, it's really personal preference, but I can't stand Indoc. Theory. Once upon a time I wanted to believe it, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized it would underminea lot of what I loved about the game.

I mean, I wouldn't blame Bioware for caving to the masses and making IT canon, retconning the original ending. God knows they need fan support. I just hope that if they do, they give gamers a choice of following that theory in the ending, depending on some in-game prompts/decisions throughout ME3, or even just giving other gamerrs a stripped down EC that revised the ending cinematic without delving into IT.

Otherwise I won't even touch the extended cut. I'll just keep my headcanon and dive back into fanfiction that provides more thorough, consistent, and satisfying epilogues.

[kyg_20X6]

Theodoro wrote...

I can see that happening - one of the things that bummed me out is that your squad doesn't seem to care that you're most probably dead, especially your LI, and I would like to see that rectified in the Extended Cut with tons of more dialogue and cutscenes centering around your crew. I like your idea of how things would play out with each of the endings and EMS ratings.

What I'm hoping for is that Shepard would actually be able to contact the Normandy and his/her LI in some way before making the dreadful choice. After all, Hackett was able to get in touch with him/her. That way, if you don't have enough EMS for Shepard to live or simply don't like Destroy, he/she would be able to have a few last words with his/her crew and his/her LI.

Yeah, my two main problems with the ending were people acting out of character (e.g. squad abandoning you, Joker fleeing, no one caring you're dead/'dead') and not knowing what happened to everyone afterwards. That sort of why I have hope for the EC, and was buoyed by what Merizan tweeted (it confirmed/gave hope that both those would be addressed).

Modifié par kyg_20X6, 23 mai 2012 - 09:24 .

[fluffywalrus]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

I really don't think, even for a romanced Shep, that any conceiving happens in London. If it does, it happens on the night before Cronos station. London was just a chance for them to have a deep personal moment together, in a very intimate meld. The last chance for them to get away from it all for a bit.

I enjoy the thought that Liara provided Shep with a few moments of peace and tranquility, alone with her.
The intimacy of the whole situation absolutely broke my heart(considering what was on their plate afterward), but warmed it as well. There's no better way I could envision the two going out

[Tyranniac]

kyg_20X6 wrote...


Yeah, my two main problems with the ending were people acting out of character (e.g. squad abandoning you, Joker fleeing, no one caring you're dead/'dead') and not knowing what happened to everyone afterwards. That sort of why I have hope for the EC, and was buoyed by what Merizan tweeted (it confirmed/gave hope that both those would be addressed).

I'm still more concerned about the Reapers. I love the Reapers damn it.

On another equally off-topic note:

 If all goes well with the EC (Let's hope it does!), I'm quite curious about how the destruction of the Alpha Relay might affect the firing of the Crucible. Seems to me that a destroyed mass relay might mean it doesn't manage to cover all of the galaxy? That would certainly be interesting.

Apologies for that, will be more on-topic next time but leaving for today now. Goodnight you lot! <3

[Erenbe]

Theodoro wrote...

MidnightRaith wrote...
On a side note, am I one of the few that absolutely cannot stand IT?

Why can't you stand it? It's about BioWare's only saving throw out of the much more horrible ending we have now.

Even if IT is true...that would just mean that the game didn't end. Destroy ending has Shep being buried under a ton of rubble...and that's it...
IT also has some logical flaws...but so does the actual ending...

I don't mind IT but for me it also doesn't make much sense to end a game like this...well...the other option is the end we've gotten. Argh...don't know..both endings don't make sense. 

I just want a happy end 

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Theodoro wrote...
What I'm hoping for is that Shepard would actually be able to contact the Normandy and his/her LI in some way before making the dreadful choice. After all, Hackett was able to get in touch with him/her. That way, if you don't have enough EMS for Shepard to live or simply don't like Destroy, he/she would be able to have a few last words with his/her crew and his/her LI.

I would prefer not really.

One thing that is actually good in the endings right now are the flashbacks, and the reason those work is because Shepard is isolated.

[Aristobulus500]

Okay, I'm not going to say much about the IT but I'll say this - I buy into it, but I don't think it's what Bioware really intended. I just think the ending is so poorly written that it's what they wrote even though they didn't mean to. Their intentions don't matter in the slightest bit, all that matters is what's actually in game.

And IT fits - it makes more sense than what they were going for. There's a billion and a half ****ing plot holes and inconsistencies and problems with the ending, that the IT solves.

Now, here's a major point - it is absolutely true that IT itself is not an ending. But here's what it is - an out. If you go with the IT, then what you're left with is Shepard waking up, at the end of the game with the conclusion and confrontation still needing to happen. He hasn't gone through the beam yet.

That means - everything people don't like about the ending can be ignored with the IT - it's not canon! It didn't happen! It was a dream, and you don't have to worry about how to weave in all the flaws and fix them because you can just ignore them! It allows you to write an entirely new ending.

[lillitheris]

I would personally prefer for BioWare to run with the IT and then just redo the whole ending after that, but in the interest of realism, I think that if they produce a satisfying EC at all (which isn’t certain) I think – Said with hint of hopeful smugness as the elcor would put it – it will be closer to what I’m writing in “Unity” (and my ending thread here) although I doubt they’ll have the quad to do what I did with the Normandy and the Stargazer, so those scenes will probably remain unsatisfying to most.

Also, geeze, I’m running really close to missing tonight’s deadline too

Modifié par lillitheris, 23 mai 2012 - 09:40 .

[DOsquareZER]

Tyranniac wrote...

kyg_20X6 wrote...


Yeah, my two main problems with the ending were people acting out of character (e.g. squad abandoning you, Joker fleeing, no one caring you're dead/'dead') and not knowing what happened to everyone afterwards. That sort of why I have hope for the EC, and was buoyed by what Merizan tweeted (it confirmed/gave hope that both those would be addressed).

I'm still more concerned about the Reapers. I love the Reapers damn it.

Hahaa yea... Sovereign/Nazaara? in ME1 I friggan adored, the amount of cold menace in that voice was just epic.  Hell even harbinger had his(its) moments...all he needed was a curled mustache and melovolant laugh!  ... alas, me3 has made both of them look like medicore pawns and the laughing stock of the series.  Shame.
Where so many horror/thriller flicks go wrong - by revealing their monsters and/or their motives (or even by giving them a motive eg: Reapers).  If that makes sense, words are not my friends right now... 

Modifié par doozer12, 23 mai 2012 - 09:45 .

[CrimsonN7]

Lizardviking wrote...

CrimsonN7 wrote...
Liara's gift scene in London, hope she took my Shep's genetic code then and there, my Shep would have wanted Liara to have her kid.

I am quite okay with people hoping that Liara and Shepard concieved a child, but of all the places people wanted it to happen they think its London? Instead of what might be their last night together before Cronos station, people would rather have it be in the makeshift infirmary where the wounded soldiers are more likely than moaning in agony.

Sorry, just something I always found strange.

May not be romantic I'll give you that but to conceive their child on earth, I would like that for my Shep, ideally would prefer if it wasn't in a warzone but Shep and Liara have little time to waste, the reapers are massing.

[lillitheris]

Egads, please no London children. If you must headcanon a conception, please put it before the Cerberus attack

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

CrimsonN7 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

CrimsonN7 wrote...
Liara's gift scene in London, hope she took my Shep's genetic code then and there, my Shep would have wanted Liara to have her kid.

I am quite okay with people hoping that Liara and Shepard concieved a child, but of all the places people wanted it to happen they think its London? Instead of what might be their last night together before Cronos station, people would rather have it be in the makeshift infirmary where the wounded soldiers are more likely than moaning in agony.

Sorry, just something I always found strange.

May not be romantic I'll give you that but to conceive their child on earth, I would like that for my Shep, ideally would prefer if it wasn't in a warzone but Shep and Liara have little time to waste, the reapers are massing.

Shepard knew that the attack on Cronos station would be the beginning of the final battle. So that makes Shepard seem short-sighted.

[kyg_20X6]

[DOsquareZER]

Lizardviking wrote...

CrimsonN7 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

CrimsonN7 wrote...
Liara's gift scene in London, hope she took my Shep's genetic code then and there, my Shep would have wanted Liara to have her kid.

I am quite okay with people hoping that Liara and Shepard concieved a child, but of all the places people wanted it to happen they think its London? Instead of what might be their last night together before Cronos station, people would rather have it be in the makeshift infirmary where the wounded soldiers are more likely than moaning in agony.

Sorry, just something I always found strange.

May not be romantic I'll give you that but to conceive their child on earth, I would like that for my Shep, ideally would prefer if it wasn't in a warzone but Shep and Liara have little time to waste, the reapers are massing.

Shepard knew that the attack on Cronos station would be the beginning of the final battle. So that makes Shepard seem short-sighted.

^: Short sighted, emotional, kind of naive and/or even a tad bit selfish, i could go on. 
Also: Apologies in advance but...what would a synthesis ending do to a possibly pregnant liara?  *frowns* food for thought.  No need for discussion really.

Edit: Oh frack its a top, im not finding an image of synthesis implications ... *goes into the liara picture database*

Modifié par doozer12, 23 mai 2012 - 10:12 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

doozer12 wrote...
Also: Apologies in advance but...what would a synthesis ending do to a possibly pregnant liara?  *frowns* food for thought.  No need for discussion really.

The whole idea of synthesis is just so wrong.

People who are different can never get along, we must make everyone the same.

I'll just stick with control and destroy.