56460 réponses à ce sujet

[Aristobulus500]

Makrys wrote...

Aristobulus500 wrote...

That could use a better/real background - and I think she looks a little too sad, like she doesn't really want to be there.

I wasn't looking at the background. 

Hah! Touche...

And I think she looks thoughtful. Mournful isn't necessarily bad. I imagine her sitting on her bed thinking about Shepard... maybe worried about him. It's very well done, though I would have liked a better setting indeed, maybe like actually on her bed or something.

Maybe she does look like that...but again it's hard to say when there's no setting. The background, aside from actually placing her somewhere, can help lend a hand to the emotion portrayed - same pose, if she's on her bed - or maybe looking out a window into space - as you say, gives off a different emotion than sitting in this dark void.

Maybe I wouldn't think she looks so sad if she was actually somewhere.

Also an actual background can help tell a story too, you get an idea of why this is happening - what I imagine is this - if you use her on her bed, it's like she was just getting ready for bed, but felt a sudden longing for Shepard because she's going to bed alone, and she paused to worry about him, for example.

[Makrys]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

Makrys wrote...

Aristobulus500 wrote...

That could use a better/real background - and I think she looks a little too sad, like she doesn't really want to be there.

I wasn't looking at the background. 

Hah! Touche...

And I think she looks thoughtful. Mournful isn't necessarily bad. I imagine her sitting on her bed thinking about Shepard... maybe worried about him. It's very well done, though I would have liked a better setting indeed, maybe like actually on her bed or something.

Maybe she does look like that...but again it's hard to say when there's no setting. The background, aside from actually placing her somewhere, can help lend a hand to the emotion portrayed - same pose, if she's on her bed - or maybe looking out a window into space - as you say, gives off a different emotion than sitting in this dark void.

Maybe I wouldn't think she looks so sad if she was actually somewhere.

Also an actual background can help tell a story too, you get an idea of why this is happening - what I imagine is this - if you use her on her bed, it's like she was just getting ready for bed, but felt a sudden longing for Shepard because she's going to bed alone, and she paused to worry about him, for example.

Pretty much precisely the scenario I was thinking of. Very likely too.

I just wanna hug her. 

[Makrys]

Yoshiyuki Ly wrote...

Yeah, that definitely seems to be what they're complaining about. I was pleasantly surprised by how much we got to see her in the third game.

Totally agree with you about the series itself. I care more about building on it via art like you. Drawing, fanfic, etc. Liara's character is too attractive not to explore, definitely.


edit:

oh wow, top of the page! Never thought I'd be the lucky one.

*snip*

Can't resist that come-hither animation she does in this scene. I grin every time I see it.

Nice choice!

[Makrys]

 Another 'black void' shot. 

[img]http://www.google.com/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/086/d/4/liara_t__soni_23_by_johntesh-d4u3rfz.jpg&sa=X&ei=PQm_T_jtFany2QXwlYWWCg&ved=0CAoQ8wc4aQ&usg=AFQjCNGUvZ-qEm3t0JRTB-5QArH7SaMCVA[/img]

Modifié par Makrys, 25 mai 2012 - 04:32 .

[Aristobulus500]

Logan Cloud wrote...

Makrys wrote...

Aristobulus500 wrote...

I always find it hilarious people say Liara comes on too strong, when for Liaramancers, we don't get enough, because those same scenes that make people think she's too strong? Are exactly the same for Liaramancers and are just friend scenes. There's no change or acknowledgment of a romance.

From someone's perspective who doesn't like her, they of course see it as too much Liara. From our perspective, like you said, its not enough because most of it is just 'friend talk'. Which really bugged me. There were very few instances where the dialogue altered based on whether she was your LI or not. <_<

Well to be fair to the haters, her "friendship" is leaning farther into the romance side. We may complain that we don't get enough of her, but we definetly got the better end of the deal. I switched my canon from Ash to Lia simply because I felt Shep's interactions with Lia were deeper and more meaningful.

She really does come on strong. If I were Ash, I would've kicked Liara's ass for hanging on my boyfriend so much.

If you were Ash, you would've gotten your ass kicked for trying. Ain't no way Ash can take Liara.

Unless she gets the jump on her, but good ****ing luck when she's the ****ing Shadow Broker.

And Liaramancers definitely did not get the better end of the deal. At least other LI's get more scenes where their romance actually changes things. Liara gets a lot of screen time, sure, but it's not as a romance - romancing her literally has no effect on most scenes she is in, which is stupid beyond belief.

And then, her entire race and homeworld just get **** on in the story. Rannoch and Tuchanka get amazing, long, detailed arcs that are very well done and involve their respective characters in many ways, and can play out in lots of different ways based on your choices and even on who you're romancing, especially Rannoch.

Liara? the Asari? ONE mission. Might as well be an N7 mission - and there's not a single choice to make, and your romance matters not in the slightest bit.

[Yoshiyuki Ly]

Hmm, as for the friend thing, it took me a couple of playthroughs to excuse Liara's constant use of the word. "Girlfriend" doesn't seem to fit the asari. Bondmate/partner, yes...but I understand now, after viewing The Final Hours ME3 app that BW were pressed for time after the "original" script leaked. Dialog variations must have been on the chopping block somewhere along the road. Having to affirm the relationship about three times was something of a wtf factor for me, though. I've seen the vid where Liara does acknowledge the relationship during your first conversation with her on the Normandy if you completed LotSB and brought her on board for "drinks."

[Makrys]

Yoshiyuki Ly wrote...

Hmm, as for the friend thing, it took me a couple of playthroughs to excuse Liara's constant use of the word. "Girlfriend" doesn't seem to fit the asari. Bondmate/partner, yes...but I understand now, after viewing The Final Hours ME3 app that BW were pressed for time after the "original" script leaked. Dialog variations must have been on the chopping block somewhere along the road. Having to affirm the relationship about three times was something of a wtf factor for me, though. I've seen the vid where Liara does acknowledge the relationship during your first conversation with her on the Normandy if you completed LotSB and brought her on board for "drinks."

I really hope they patch these things some time. And like I said earlier, a romance DLC of some caliber would be greatly appreciated. I'm thinking of polling the forums and seeing what people think, then if we get anough positve results maybe passing along the information to Bioware later on. 

Modifié par Makrys, 25 mai 2012 - 04:34 .

[Yoshiyuki Ly]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

And then, her entire race and homeworld just get **** on in the story. Rannoch and Tuchanka get amazing, long, detailed arcs that are very well done and involve their respective characters in many ways, and can play out in lots of different ways based on your choices and even on who you're romancing, especially Rannoch.

Liara? the Asari? ONE mission. Might as well be an N7 mission - and there's not a single choice to make, and your romance matters not in the slightest bit.

You know, I felt like that mission came so late in the game that it was just, "This is what happens when you don't jump on the bandwagon and join the galaxy in the fight! Your homeworld gets destroyed, suck it!" and there's no way to stop it. Kai Leng's plot armor annoyed me to no end. Even on insanity I could only get a few headshots with my Black Widow before the guy hops away with a damn gunship covering for him. I mean, seriously.

Thessia's "arc" felt so shoe-horned in it was depressing.

[Yoshiyuki Ly]

Makrys wrote...

Yoshiyuki Ly wrote...

Hmm, as for the friend thing, it took me a couple of playthroughs to excuse Liara's constant use of the word. "Girlfriend" doesn't seem to fit the asari. Bondmate/partner, yes...but I understand now, after viewing The Final Hours ME3 app that BW were pressed for time after the "original" script leaked. Dialog variations must have been on the chopping block somewhere along the road. Having to affirm the relationship about three times was something of a wtf factor for me, though. I've seen the vid where Liara does acknowledge the relationship during your first conversation with her on the Normandy if you completed LotSB and brought her on board for "drinks."

I really hope they patch these things some time. And like I said earlier, a romance DLC of some caliber would be greatly appreciated. I'm thinking of polling the forums and seeing what people think, then if we get anough positve results maybe passing along the information to Bioware later on. 

I agree. Hopefully the EC will bring along a patch to fix that particular bug. As for romance DLC polls, I've seen a ton of different ones. I can't remember specifically if I've seen a poll like the one you mention, though I've noticed a lot of threads popping up about this subject. I'm glad I prefer Liara to the other LIs, even the unromanceable NPCs that people are calling for.

[Makrys]

Logan Cloud wrote...

Aristobulus500 wrote...

Logan Cloud wrote...

Makrys wrote...

Aristobulus500 wrote...

I always find it hilarious people say Liara comes on too strong, when for Liaramancers, we don't get enough, because those same scenes that make people think she's too strong? Are exactly the same for Liaramancers and are just friend scenes. There's no change or acknowledgment of a romance.

From someone's perspective who doesn't like her, they of course see it as too much Liara. From our perspective, like you said, its not enough because most of it is just 'friend talk'. Which really bugged me. There were very few instances where the dialogue altered based on whether she was your LI or not. <_<

Well to be fair to the haters, her "friendship" is leaning farther into the romance side. We may complain that we don't get enough of her, but we definetly got the better end of the deal. I switched my canon from Ash to Lia simply because I felt Shep's interactions with Lia were deeper and more meaningful.

She really does come on strong. If I were Ash, I would've kicked Liara's ass for hanging on my boyfriend so much.

If you were Ash, you would've gotten your ass kicked for trying. Ain't no way Ash can take Liara.

Unless she gets the jump on her, but good ****ing luck when she's the ****ing Shadow Broker.

And Liaramancers definitely did not get the better end of the deal. At least other LI's get more scenes where their romance actually changes things. Liara gets a lot of screen time, sure, but it's not as a romance - romancing her literally has no effect on most scenes she is in, which is stupid beyond belief.

And then, her entire race and homeworld just get **** on in the story. Rannoch and Tuchanka get amazing, long, detailed arcs that are very well done and involve their respective characters in many ways, and can play out in lots of different ways based on your choices and even on who you're romancing, especially Rannoch.

Liara? the Asari? ONE mission. Might as well be an N7 mission - and there's not a single choice to make, and your romance matters not in the slightest bit.

I'm sorry, but that's all based on opinion. Every word of it.

Having romanced Ashley on my first playthrough, I can honestly say that nothing signifigant is changed when you don't romance her. I can also say that there's very little difference between Ashley and Kaidan's character as a whole, which is slightly annoying because they were completely different in the first game.

I thought Thessia was very touching, and a little heartbreaking. The fact that I romanced her made it impact me, not Shepard, which I think is more of a success, as it got me to care about the character.

And as I said, romancing her did have little effect on the scenes she was in, but most of them were still romantic, even if you didn't romance her.

All I'm saying is that someone who didn't romance her, has a much better case in complaining than someone who did romance her. She's obviously Bioware's favorite, and it shows throughout the game. If you wanted to, you could look at my post from earlier and look at it as Bioware manipulating me to choose the romance they liked the most.

I'm tired of hearing 'she's obviously Bioware's favorite' over and over. 

That may be true, as usually the writers, just like us, have favorite characters. And sometimes its evidence in the writing. It's not uncommon, nor a big deal. And if it is true... then they have some damn good tastes. 

Modifié par Makrys, 25 mai 2012 - 04:43 .

[Yoshiyuki Ly]

Logan Cloud wrote...
 If you wanted to, you could look at my post from earlier and look at it as Bioware manipulating me to choose the romance they liked the most.

There's also a thread in the main ME3 forum where someone theorized that Liara is indoctrinated >_>

[Makrys]

Yoshiyuki Ly wrote...

Logan Cloud wrote...
 If you wanted to, you could look at my post from earlier and look at it as Bioware manipulating me to choose the romance they liked the most.

There's also a thread in the main ME3 forum where someone theorized that Liara is indoctrinated >_>

SHHHH!!! Don't remind me!! It was so dumb and heartbreaking... 

[Yuqi]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

This is a big problem with fanfic authors, especially when they write a story about their Shepard. They are too attached, and they can't write in any flaws or anything.

That doesn't mean they have to go all grimdark downer, but their Shepard basically being Goku is also just obnoxious, too. Especially if they have all the characters in the story do nothing but fawn over Shepard and no equality is shown in the relationships.

I haven't read much of the story though, can you give me some examples of what you meant, that happens in the story? Spoil it for me if you have to.

Goku is awsome and not a gary stu.

When it comes to the Fanfic issue,  I have noticed that people forget, that Shepard has a base-character, for example: Shepard is always going to be millatry; and Shepard is always going to have mental issues.

Lizardviking wrote...

Yuqi wrote...

Lol, Lol.

This happened on Kaidan playthrough, lol a Kaidan romance playthrough is painful IMO.

But liara says it best: Link

Ha! That was pretty funny! 

Kaidan is still one of my favorite characters though.

I like Kaidan as a character, but not as a romance.

[Yoshiyuki Ly]

Makrys wrote...

Yoshiyuki Ly wrote...

Logan Cloud wrote...
 If you wanted to, you could look at my post from earlier and look at it as Bioware manipulating me to choose the romance they liked the most.

There's also a thread in the main ME3 forum where someone theorized that Liara is indoctrinated >_>

SHHHH!!! Don't remind me!! It was so dumb and heartbreaking... 

Haters gonna hate

[Makrys]

Yoshiyuki Ly wrote...

Makrys wrote...

Yoshiyuki Ly wrote...

Logan Cloud wrote...
 If you wanted to, you could look at my post from earlier and look at it as Bioware manipulating me to choose the romance they liked the most.

There's also a thread in the main ME3 forum where someone theorized that Liara is indoctrinated >_>

SHHHH!!! Don't remind me!! It was so dumb and heartbreaking... 

Haters gonna hate

I wanted to strangle him with biotics.

[Yoshiyuki Ly]

The Liara's Indoctrinated Theory is the new low for BSN, lol. I think this thread is a safe-haven for me. Level-headed discussions here from like-minded people. Discussions being the key word. I haven't seen any insults or degradation going on here. Outside it feels like there's always a new anti-Liara cult-conspiracy popping up and some of us go to defend her, and it turns into this big mess.

Modifié par Yoshiyuki Ly, 25 mai 2012 - 05:02 .

[coatsworth]

Makrys wrote...

Yoshiyuki Ly wrote...

Makrys wrote...

Yoshiyuki Ly wrote...

Logan Cloud wrote...
 If you wanted to, you could look at my post from earlier and look at it as Bioware manipulating me to choose the romance they liked the most.

There's also a thread in the main ME3 forum where someone theorized that Liara is indoctrinated >_>

SHHHH!!! Don't remind me!! It was so dumb and heartbreaking... 

Haters gonna hate

I wanted to strangle him with biotics.

well, i took a look at this thread and though 'what did I just read' and just lol'd

http://social.biowar...5749/4#12217693
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[Aristobulus500]

Logan Cloud wrote...
I thought Thessia was very touching, and a little heartbreaking. The fact that I romanced her made it impact me, not Shepard, which I think is more of a success, as it got me to care about the character.

It's not that the scenes weren't emotional - they certainly were - but it's that you don't get to actually have a romance with her. The scenes being exactly the same between romance or not, means they are certainly not romance scenes.

And as I said, romancing her did have little effect on the scenes she was in, but most of them were still romantic, even if you didn't romance her.

Except for the important ones. Where she keeps referring to you as a "friend" and acting distant, and the post Thessia one where Shepard is the coldest man in the galaxy and basically, even as a paragon romancing Liara, tells her to get back to work he's got better things to worry about. Ain't nothin' romantic about the way Shepard treats Liara after Thessia.

All I'm saying is that someone who didn't romance her, has a much better case in complaining than someone who did romance her. She's obviously Bioware's favorite, and it shows throughout the game. If you wanted to, you could look at my post from earlier and look at it as Bioware manipulating me to choose the romance they liked the most.

Hahaha, that tired old argument again? Sorry, but you're straight up wrong. She's not Bioware's favorite, she's not their "Golden Girl", that's just something spiteful people came up with that just isn't true - and all of Liara's flaws in the plot and shortcomings are evidence of that.

That is, how weak she is as the Shadow Broker, how little her romance actually matters or comes up, how many of the scenes with her are exactly the same for a romance or non, etc...

Oh, and I've got it straight from a Bioware employee's mouth - she isn't their Golden Girl. If you give me a minute, I'll paste the direct quotes, as I did before, between me and him where I asked him if Liara got any special treatment.

[Makrys]

The way he treated her after Thessia I thought was pretty cold and completely out of character for a Paragon Shep. Renegade? Sure. Paragon? No. Why not an intimate embrace, and assurance that things will be ok because he's there for her? No. All she gets is a pep talk. It was a perfect opportunity for a romantic scene. 

Come on, Bioware!

Modifié par Makrys, 25 mai 2012 - 05:19 .

[Aristobulus500]

Here's the quotes between me and a bioware employee, related to Liara and the Asari.

Aristobulus wrote..

Anyway, I just want to know - Did Liara actually get any special treatment or attention, was Bioware intending to make her a "Golden Girl/Canon Romance" as people say she is, or did things just turn out that way that it appears so, but it wasn't completely intended?

It's just various things - her screen time, how important she is - even things like how significant the changes to her model were, and she seems to have more attention paid to making her model as detailed and high res as possible, especially compared to pretty much anyone else. Just things like her eyes and the detail on her skin texture and all - and not to sound perverted, but even in her sex scene, her model is detailed and textured on parts of her you'd never even see because the camera never pans unless you use flycam - like, a lot of graphical shortcuts *could've* been taken on designing her because a lot is actually out of view of the player, yet nothing was.

So was it a coincidence? Did Bioware just happen to put so much effort into her, or was Bioware intentionally meaning to do something by putting so much into her, they actually *wanted* to put more into her than other characters?

I mean, in retaliation, I can always point to things other characters got that Liara didn't, but complaining about things Liara *is* lacking isn't the point of my question here.

Bioware Employee wrote...

She wasn't treated with any sort of preferential treatment over any of the other characters.
Writing for her and tali was easier though which explains a bit of their screen time, tali probably got more thought than liara in-house though because her face and the suit lead to a bit more in the way of interesting situations they had to figure out what to do with. Tali's face for instance was the case of years of debate ... which they then pooped out a quick easter egg for the tali fans ... I still say she should have looked like a hydralisk (honestly that's what I was arguing for 5 years ... but I guess team hydralisk lost that argument)

There wasn't really any canon, actually when we had to figure out default states for ME2 and ME3 we were left kinda scratching our heads as to what the default should be since we didn't actually think about canon things at all, it was mostly left up to our writing QA fellow to work out what was best with our writing team.

For ME2 I think we went with almost all centre options as the "canon" and for ME3 they chose whatever they figured was coolest, even though some of the decisions were different than the ME2 default.

For screen time, her and tali were the ones that got the most, because they were the only two guaranteed to have been with you in ME1 the whole way it was a lot easier to write situations for them in ME2.
And then in ME3, well you have two characters that did various things with you in ME2, Tali was with you the whole time and Liara was with you for an entire game previously and was guaranteed 100% to not be dead at the end of ME2, the only henchman that had that distinction if I recall, so having her along was a no-brainer, you didn't have to write 4 bits of alternate dialogue for everything because there's only one situation, liara's alive, not was alive then died, not never met, nothing like that. a fraction of the work of any of the other folks.

You didn't have to consider if you didn't let them join you on the citadel back in ME1 like you could for wrex or garrus, and you didn't have to consider if they died like wrex, kaiden or ashley could either.
And liara didn't melt at the end of ME2.

And for her model, well they've had 3 years to work on it, they tried to make all the folks pretty good though.
For detail where the camera won't go, well the artists never know where the camera will go, so they do the best over everything that might show up, you never know when a cinematic designer might start having closeups of the tailbone or something along those lines.



Soooooo that's a pretty long answer, short version is that any preferential treatment is coincidental, if any of it was intended I didn't know about it.

Aristobulus wrote...

That's actually really interesting - thank you for the reply. I figured a lot of the seemingly preferential treatment was just because Liara was the only one who couldn't die, whereas the rest had their histories branch, and Liara's is basically just "are you romancing me or not".

I was curious about it though because - I don't know if you've noticed - but it's a very popular misconception among the fanbase, especially those who dislike Liara, that she got immense special treatment by Bioware at the expense of other characters.

Since you've helped clear some of this up and show that's just not true - Liara was treated equally in development - do you mind if I pass around any of this message to other places to try to clear that up?

And as far as Tali's face - I was personally always hoping that you'd get to see her remove her mask...and it's just be thousands upon thousands of tentacles and lamprey mouths. I guess the hydralisk idea would've been easier to create though

I do want to ask you as well though, was there ever any plans to do more with Thessia or Liara's romance, and it just got cut short due to time? I mean, specifically, it seems like at points there are a few scenes that are clearly lacking for a romance.

Thessia is only a single mission, and the Asari barely show up in the game and don't even go to the summit - and then most of Liara's scenes in the mid-late game don't differ for a romance. To my knowledge, scenes like the Time Capsule, Thessia, and Liara's breakdown after Thessia - and possibly more I'm forgetting - simply lack any differences between a Liara romancing Shep and one that isn't. And it seems especially odd that the Thessia segment isn't different between a Liara romance and not.

To me, it feels like they wrote all these scenes with a catch all Shepard that acts as if he might be romancing her, he might not be, and then the team just never got a chance to actually make a version for romance. Just curious if I'm on any right track with that train of thought.

Bioware Employee..

You can probably pass that around, I don't think I have anything that shouldn't already be public knowledge somewhere.
But if people want to hate liara, I don't think there's much you can do about it, they'll like who they like and hate who they hate regardless of what you say to them 99% of the time.

I don't actually know what they planned to do with Thessia, just what they actually did.
There's a lot of running around, a fight with the space ninja at the end.

I wouldn't sweat it much though, a LOT of stuff gets cut from the games, a lot of really cool stuff.
In ME1 the mission to pick up liara had a big awesome base before hand before you could get in the flubber-mobile, you had to sort a labour(mob) dispute with some other exploitive group.
It even had space hookers.

That was my favourite level in all of mass effect, but it wasn't story central, they needed to cut the scope to ship some time in our lives, so it got cut.
I'm still bitter about it, it was so cool.

oh yeah and regarding liara's romance, not really sure what was going on behind the scenes there either.

[Aristobulus500]

Makrys wrote...

The way he treated her after Thessia I thought was pretty cold and completely out of character for a Paragon Shep. Renegade? Sure. Paragon? No. Why not an intimate embrace, and assurance that things will be ok because he's there for her? No. All she gets is a pep talk. It was a perfect opportunity for a romantic scene. 

Come on, Bioware!

Exactly. And it's because of infuriating scenes like that, where Bioware forces me to be a total **** to Liara for no reason instead of actually getting to have real romance scenes with her, that I can't accept the argument that I, as a Liara fan, got it good.

Especially not when I turn around and see what Tali fans got in Rannoch and all the ways HER romance could play out.

Liara may have had the most screen time, but that most definitely does not translate into her romance getting the most screen time.

That said, I'm going to admit other LI fans that aren't Talimancers got shafted pretty hard, especially ME2 romances. But I will never accept that I, as a Liara fan, had it good. I didn't. They just got shafted too. We all got shafted because the game was so rushed.