56461 réponses à ce sujet

[Yuqi]

Makrys wrote...

*snip*

EDIT: Damn it, Yuki you barely beat me to first post! 

And I had a good picture to share! Might share it anyways... 

My bad

Modifié par Yuqi, 26 mai 2012 - 03:48 .

[Makrys]

 This is what I would call, tragically beautiful. 


I still can't help feeling sad after seeing it though. 

I just want Shep to walk in the room at this moment, smile, and say, "Hey." Then she runs up to him, throwing her arms around his neck as their lips lock. They hold eachother for what feels like an eternity, sealed in a tight embrace. At this moment, everything is obsolete. Nothing else matters. The storms outside are only a backdrop for their love. A symbolism of chaos and darkness; their lives. However, occasionally lit to a special magnificence by the awesome lightning; their love. At this moment, nothing else matters. Only their love.

Ok, yeah that makes me feel better. 

Modifié par Makrys, 26 mai 2012 - 03:55 .

[kyg_20X6]

Don't forget, TIM knows she's the Shadow Broker. He could easily leak this to the Alliance. Maybe Liara just thought it was better it came from her.

[Aristobulus500]

Makrys wrote...

I think if I could choose from any fanfic, to be the actual canon ending of the game, I'd choose "Here at the End of All Things". It really ties everything up nicely, and provides a pretty extensive epilogue. But I just love how it depicts Liara post-beam. Anxiously waiting, nervous, worried to death that... Shepard may not make it. And then when they're reunited in the Normandy, and go on to live on Eden Prime... it was just a beautiful end to the trilogy.

And personally, if I were the lead director on the franchise I would have done everything in my power to provide that type of ending and closure. Sure the ending (after the beam) may be 10 to 15 minutes of cutscenes (though it wouldn't have to be, there could be some dialogue in there), but at least it would have sent off the trilogy the way it deserved to be. And frankly I think the fans deserve an ending like that. So if I were lead director, I would have said (given we had enough time) to the team, "Look guys, we've got some extra time, let's craft a lovely epilogue to send Shepard and the crew out with". Boom, craft something like this for every LI, and I don't think anyone would very many people would be complaining about the ending.

Don't tell me, "That would be impossible to do"! I refuse to believe that. If Bioware truly wanted to give us closure and sort a salute to the fans, they would spend the time and money to end the trilogy like that. Cuz it sure as hell deserves it. Shepard deserves it. So why not? I would have done it. Or at least pushed the team as hard as they could to do anything close to it. It would have been so worth it.

*sigh* But I'm not the lead director. And I'm not saying that would be the only ending. It would be one of many. But I don't know why we couldn't have gotten an ending with that kind of depth. It should have happened, and it would have been amazing. A Return of the King style ending. Mass Effect deserves it.

The thing is, what you've posted here, is basically what everyone was expecting, and it would've been perfect! That is, a scaled up, more epic version of ME2's ending, where you had a range of endings from "Shepard dies and loses" to "bittersweet victory - some deaths and casualties" and "Total victory, no casualties" with even paragon/renegade mixed in too, with the base choice and final talk to TIM.

Thing is, Mass Effect is a sci fi space opera, very similar to Star Wars, so this kind of ending would've been perfect and played to the core of the series and played up the strengths and gave players exactly the emotions and satisfaction and catharsis they wanted. It wouldn't have been terribly unique but it wouldn't have made a difference - ME was never about being unique, it has always been about building on traditions and cliches set by earlier sci fi series and completely refining them into something amazing - the ending should've been the same.

I think if Weekes had written it, it would've been that. Problem is, Hudson/Walters...there's a direct quote from one of them where he said he had just finished playing Deus Ex and he ****ing loved that ending and wanted to copy it. And boy did he ever. Along with the not wanting to make something "too videogamey" quote, it shows that he just completely lost touch with what ME was and has always been, and lost his ****ing mind and wanted to make a deep, introspective, philosophical piece of art - totally ignoring that ME was essentially art anyway. He doesn't even know what art is!

He forgot that he was making Star Wars, and thought instead that he was making 2001: A Space Odyssey.

[Makrys]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

Makrys wrote...

I think if I could choose from any fanfic, to be the actual canon ending of the game, I'd choose "Here at the End of All Things". It really ties everything up nicely, and provides a pretty extensive epilogue. But I just love how it depicts Liara post-beam. Anxiously waiting, nervous, worried to death that... Shepard may not make it. And then when they're reunited in the Normandy, and go on to live on Eden Prime... it was just a beautiful end to the trilogy.

And personally, if I were the lead director on the franchise I would have done everything in my power to provide that type of ending and closure. Sure the ending (after the beam) may be 10 to 15 minutes of cutscenes (though it wouldn't have to be, there could be some dialogue in there), but at least it would have sent off the trilogy the way it deserved to be. And frankly I think the fans deserve an ending like that. So if I were lead director, I would have said (given we had enough time) to the team, "Look guys, we've got some extra time, let's craft a lovely epilogue to send Shepard and the crew out with". Boom, craft something like this for every LI, and I don't think anyone would very many people would be complaining about the ending.

Don't tell me, "That would be impossible to do"! I refuse to believe that. If Bioware truly wanted to give us closure and sort a salute to the fans, they would spend the time and money to end the trilogy like that. Cuz it sure as hell deserves it. Shepard deserves it. So why not? I would have done it. Or at least pushed the team as hard as they could to do anything close to it. It would have been so worth it.

*sigh* But I'm not the lead director. And I'm not saying that would be the only ending. It would be one of many. But I don't know why we couldn't have gotten an ending with that kind of depth. It should have happened, and it would have been amazing. A Return of the King style ending. Mass Effect deserves it.

The thing is, what you've posted here, is basically what everyone was expecting, and it would've been perfect! That is, a scaled up, more epic version of ME2's ending, where you had a range of endings from "Shepard dies and loses" to "bittersweet victory - some deaths and casualties" and "Total victory, no casualties" with even paragon/renegade mixed in too, with the base choice and final talk to TIM.

Thing is, Mass Effect is a sci fi space opera, very similar to Star Wars, so this kind of ending would've been perfect and played to the core of the series and played up the strengths and gave players exactly the emotions and satisfaction and catharsis they wanted. It wouldn't have been terribly unique but it wouldn't have made a difference - ME was never about being unique, it has always been about building on traditions and cliches set by earlier sci fi series and completely refining them into something amazing - the ending should've been the same.

I think if Weekes had written it, it would've been that. Problem is, Hudson/Walters...there's a direct quote from one of them where he said he had just finished playing Deus Ex and he ****ing loved that ending and wanted to copy it. And boy did he ever. Along with the not wanting to make something "too videogamey" quote, it shows that he just completely lost touch with what ME was and has always been, and lost his ****ing mind and wanted to make a deep, introspective, philosophical piece of art - totally ignoring that ME was essentially art anyway. He doesn't even know what art is!

He forgot that he was making Star Wars, and thought instead that he was making 2001: A Space Odyssey.

Agreed on all points. Except ME2's ending was nothing like what I described. It ended pretty quickly. But then again, it didn't need to have an ending like "Here at the End of All Things", because it wasn't closing out the trilogy. So, its not a great comparison. Though, I think what you were comparing specifically was a variety of endings. And even still, the endings in ME2 boiled down to mostly.... well so and so died, or well they all survived. Beyond the deaths/lives of your squadmates, there wasn't a whole lot of differentiation. Though, the final mission was completely epic. 

Still, two totally different endings with two totally different requirments. But, I agree that Weekes would have pulled something off that was at least acceptable, if not awesome. I just hope EC blows us away somehow... I really do. 

Modifié par Makrys, 26 mai 2012 - 04:23 .

[kyg_20X6]

I do believe Weekes has officially claimed that that post was created by an imposter. But what else is he gonna say?

[Aristobulus500]

Makrys wrote...
Agreed on all points. Except ME2's ending was nothing like what I described. It ended pretty quickly. But then again, it didn't need to have an ending like "Here at the End of All Things", because it wasn't closing out the trilogy. So, its not a great comparison. Though, I think what you were comparing specifically was a variety of endings. And even still, the endings in ME2 boiled down to mostly.... well so and so died, or well they all survived. Beyond the deaths/lives of your squadmates, there wasn't a whole lot of differentiation. Though, the final mission was completely epic. 

Still, two totally different endings with two totally different requirments. But, I agree that Weekes would have pulled something off that was at least acceptable, if not awesome. I just hope EC blows us away somehow... I really do. 

I didn't mean that ME2 ended like that. I meant that people expected ME3 to have a scaled up version of ME2's ending, that would lend itself to your suggested lengthy conclusions.

[Makrys]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

Makrys wrote...
Agreed on all points. Except ME2's ending was nothing like what I described. It ended pretty quickly. But then again, it didn't need to have an ending like "Here at the End of All Things", because it wasn't closing out the trilogy. So, its not a great comparison. Though, I think what you were comparing specifically was a variety of endings. And even still, the endings in ME2 boiled down to mostly.... well so and so died, or well they all survived. Beyond the deaths/lives of your squadmates, there wasn't a whole lot of differentiation. Though, the final mission was completely epic. 

Still, two totally different endings with two totally different requirments. But, I agree that Weekes would have pulled something off that was at least acceptable, if not awesome. I just hope EC blows us away somehow... I really do. 

I didn't mean that ME2 ended like that. I meant that people expected ME3 to have a scaled up version of ME2's ending, that would lend itself to your suggested lengthy conclusions.

Well, and my point is that it wouldn't even be 'scaled up'. It would blow ME2's ending out of the water, IMO. Outside of the final mission, the end of ME2 was nothing particularly exhilarating. Regardless...

Something like this should have happened. There is no excuse for why it did not. And it just saddens me to think about how tragically terrible my favorite trilogy came to a close. 

Modifié par Makrys, 26 mai 2012 - 04:30 .

[fluffywalrus]

Whoa, I just have to say, he did NOT copy the ending to Deus Ex, at least not in its tone and how fitting it was.
Deus Ex:HR's ending was one of the better one's I've experienced because it was true to the main underlying themes of the game, and fit perfectly as the ending of a prequel. That ending was perfect, I wouldn't change a millisecond of it, so if Casey Hudson/Mac Walters were so in love with the Deus Ex ending that they felt the eventual ME3 ending was a good sunstitute...then they fell in love with it for the most erroneous, flawed reasons. If they took 'influence' from DX:HR's ending in a way to make ME3's more philosophical and thought-provoking, then they truly didn't understand Deus Ex at all, and didn't implement what that ending took strength in, and I feel I can say that objectively.

I've heard a lot of people in the past months compare ME3 and DX:Hr's endings, bashing the good work Eidos Montreal accomplished. They're two entirely different games that share one minor theme that's played out differently in both, with a separate enough level of agency in the conflict that should give pause to anyone trying to say they're closely comparable.

I'm not going to agree entirely with Makrys, but I certainly appreciate where they're coming from. A happy ending would be pretty thrilling and heart-warming, and would have certainly been a shock to me. Going into ME3 I resigned myself to the notion that my Shep will die. I just figured, Saren and Sovereign were tough enough to defeat, almost died. The collectors were horrendously difficult and my shep did die once. What's a fleet of 10k Reapers going to be stopped by? And the crucible...an unconventional way to defeat the reapers...SHOULD, by all means not defeat the Reapers conventionally. Period. Otherwise, they would be defeating the Reapers conventionally, with a big gun instead of a lot of big guns. Once they brought in the idea of the crucible, there needed to be an unconventional sacrifice aside from faceless soldiers from all walks of life. I don't think I've ever watched or read anything where there's been an unconventional means of victory that didn't seem hollow without an unconventional sacrifice to follow suit.

That's why the three decisions we were given were heart-wrenching for me. it gave me something I found innately satisfying, but wrapped it in a package that I didn't expect or want, or that felt fitting to the journey I had taken part of. The ending should have fit all the major themes, should have provided some unconventional or ideological sacrifice, and should have left itself enough options/paths where your decisions throughout the series would give you a multitude of possible happy/mediocre/sad endings.

I'm sure Weekes would have done well...heck, I'm sure that if the entire writing staff were allowed to peer-review, it would have been even better than a single dude taking over.

Modifié par fluffywalrus, 26 mai 2012 - 04:37 .

[Makrys]

fluffywalrus wrote...

I'm sure Weekes would have done well...heck, I'm sure that if the entire writing staff were allowed to peer-review, it would have been even better than a single dude taking over.

We were, or at least I was, referring to Weekes being Lead Writer, therefore leading the entire team as they write the ending. Not that he would be the only one writing it. But he would have also done a hell of a lot better job than Walters, if it was just him.

[Aristobulus500]

Makrys wrote...

Something like this should have happened. There is no excuse for why it did not. And it just saddens me to think about how tragically terrible my favorite trilogy came to a close. 

ASDfgdfsg.

I just see red and start fuming when I think about this. I've never been as invested in anything as I have been Mass Effect. Oh sure, I've played great games before, but no other series has ever seemed so real, so in depth, with characters that were also amazingly fleshed out and not just shallow stereotypes...

I could type a lot about it, as I've done before, but in short I thought I was here for the creation of another series on par with Star Trek or Star Wars. Certainly I'm as invested in this as people have traditionally been for those series, and it's got a lot of the same style as those, and very clearly draws from both...

It could've been. It should've been. If only Hudson/Walters hadn't had their heads firmly planted up their asses...the trilogy would've just been the beginning. There's so much potential in the ME universe, if the ending had just been the heroic space opera ending that was expected and wanted...it could be fulfilled. There are countless games, books, comics, etc. that could be set in such a universe. The ME universe HAD that kind of depth to support that - the universe and races it has are absolutely amazing for that.

On the cusp of a huge hit that would be remembered for ages and could become a cultural icon...Hudson/Walters torched the **** out of it. Now, instead of seeing a new, blossoming Star Wars/Star Trek series, we're handed another Lost/Matrix. ME will just be forgotten to time, just another garbage sci fi game in a market flooded with them. It will only be spoken of to be made fun of for the ending, just like Lost/Matrix.

I can't even imagine why. Why would you turn away from the amount of money, fame and significance afforded to being the creators of another Star Wars/Star Trek? ME was on the precipice of being a setting that would make so much money it's barely fathomable, just as Star Trek and Star Wars have done. Instead he killed the entire universe so that nothing more than this original trilogy can ever be made.

As an example, imagine of Star Wars, ROTJ, had a terrible ending. It wouldn't be the cultural icon it is now. People wouldn't talk about it, it would've been forgotten ages ago. Nothing aside from that OT would've ever been made - which some would call good, but it would be at the cost of Star Wars itself being forgotten, only spoken of to be insulted. This is what has happened to ME.

I've never been burned that badly. And I will never forgive them for this. Every time I think of ME I'll fume about it, just as I still can for Lost, except worse because I wasn't even this invested in Lost.

The ending DLC had better be something magical. I really, really do not want to see this setting abandoned. It has so much potential, even without Shepard.

[kyg_20X6]

Getting a bit off-topic here, aren't we? And it's not one of the most pleasant of topics either.

[Aristobulus500]

fluffywalrus wrote...

Whoa, I just have to say, he did NOT copy the ending to Deus Ex, at least not in its tone and how fitting it was.
Deus Ex:HR's ending was one of the better one's I've experienced because it was true to the main underlying themes of the game, and fit perfectly as the ending of a prequel. That ending was perfect, I wouldn't change a millisecond of it, so if Casey Hudson/Mac Walters were so in love with the Deus Ex ending that they felt the eventual ME3 ending was a good sunstitute...then they fell in love with it for the most erroneous, flawed reasons. If they took 'influence' from DX:HR's ending in a way to make ME3's more philosophical and thought-provoking, then they truly didn't understand Deus Ex at all, and didn't implement what that ending took strength in, and I feel I can say that objectively.

I don't have the quote on hand, but he directly cited Deus Ex as influence. I didn't say he copied the ending well, just that he copied the ending. Which he most certainly did - you can draw very clear parallels between the 3 choices Deus Ex offers you, and the 3 choices the Star Child offers you.

Here's the other thing though - it made sense in Deus Ex. This is the other thing Hudson/Walters forgot when copying and pasting Deus Ex for ME's ending. Deus Ex spent the entire game building up to those 3 ending choices thematically - they all played into some ideal and concept that had been thoroughly explored over the course of the game. Deus Ex was also not a character driven story, not nearly to the extent ME was, so again, having an ending that focuses on big picture goals is again, more fitting for Deus Ex.

So in Deus Ex, when you make a choice, you understand what you're doing, it doesn't feel like it came out of nowhere, and it still feels like a victory and something you've been striving to do. In ME? It doesn't, because none of those are what you wanted to do, and two of them the series has been about actively showing you are the wrong choice, and all of them result in you destroying the very goal you were aiming for, in exchange for a goal you weren't aiming for.

So, the point isn't that Deus Ex's ending was bad. The point is that it's bad in Mass Effect, especially the way they implemented it so half assed with no proper build up.

[Aristobulus500]

kyg_20X6 wrote...

Getting a bit off-topic here, aren't we? And it's not one of the most pleasant of topics either.

If you don't like the current topic, change it!

[lillitheris]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

kyg_20X6 wrote...

Getting a bit off-topic here, aren't we? And it's not one of the most pleasant of topics either.

If you don't like the current topic, change it!

Hmm, why didn’t we think of this in all the Liara-hate threads?

[Makrys]

Agreed, man. Totally agreed. It breaks my heart. It's like they purposefully stomped on our feelings at the end. I don't even...

I just hope and pray and try to remain optimistic that the EC will somehow be awesome. They are surely taking their time with it so that is a good sign. Please come through for us, Bioware. I don't want to hate you. I really don't. But if you don't incorporate the IT in some way, or just stick by the endings we have now, I will have lost pretty much all faith in you.

Please, don't ruin my favorite trilogy. The EC is your last chance. *sigh*

I hate that I even have to feel this way.

[Makrys]

And yes, we should get back on topic. So... hey there, beautiful. 

Modifié par Makrys, 26 mai 2012 - 04:57 .

[kyg_20X6]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

If you don't like the current topic, change it!

There already is a topic: Liara.

There is a thread for complaining about the ending.

There is a reason I'm in here and not in that one.



^Jesus!

Modifié par kyg_20X6, 26 mai 2012 - 05:02 .

[Aristobulus500]

The detail on her eyes really is amazing. They don't even look too...polygony or, well, hard/solid.

[Obsidian Gryphon]

kyg_20X6 wrote...

Aristobulus500 wrote...

If you don't like the current topic, change it!

There already is a topic: Liara.

There is a thread for complaining about the ending.

There is a reason I'm in here and not in that one.

*snip*

^Jesus!

Gah. Tired of complaints. I've done my share and I'm done and done. I'd rather do something relaxing....Liara's eyes are very relaxing.    

[Makrys]

Why can't real women have eyes like hers? Better yet, I'd rather just be Shepard. 

Modifié par Makrys, 26 mai 2012 - 05:18 .

[Nharia1]

kyg_20X6 wrote...

There already is a topic: Liara.

There is a thread for complaining about the ending.

There is a reason I'm in here and not in that one.

I actually happen to be a person who regular poster in that thread, and let me tell you, its not so much about the hate of the ending anymore... its as one BW person said, "A place where people come to talk over a plate of cookies and a cup of tea". It derails so often that I'm surprised that it hasn't been closed down to be honest. Just saying, that its actually not all that bad, we're rather nice civil people, and most of us have even moved on from the whole ME series entirely...

[fluffywalrus]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

fluffywalrus wrote...

Whoa, I just have to say, he did NOT copy the ending to Deus Ex, at least not in its tone and how fitting it was.
Deus Ex:HR's ending was one of the better one's I've experienced because it was true to the main underlying themes of the game, and fit perfectly as the ending of a prequel. That ending was perfect, I wouldn't change a millisecond of it, so if Casey Hudson/Mac Walters were so in love with the Deus Ex ending that they felt the eventual ME3 ending was a good sunstitute...then they fell in love with it for the most erroneous, flawed reasons. If they took 'influence' from DX:HR's ending in a way to make ME3's more philosophical and thought-provoking, then they truly didn't understand Deus Ex at all, and didn't implement what that ending took strength in, and I feel I can say that objectively.

I don't have the quote on hand, but he directly cited Deus Ex as influence. I didn't say he copied the ending well, just that he copied the ending. Which he most certainly did - you can draw very clear parallels between the 3 choices Deus Ex offers you, and the 3 choices the Star Child offers you.

Here's the other thing though - it made sense in Deus Ex. This is the other thing Hudson/Walters forgot when copying and pasting Deus Ex for ME's ending. Deus Ex spent the entire game building up to those 3 ending choices thematically - they all played into some ideal and concept that had been thoroughly explored over the course of the game. Deus Ex was also not a character driven story, not nearly to the extent ME was, so again, having an ending that focuses on big picture goals is again, more fitting for Deus Ex.

So in Deus Ex, when you make a choice, you understand what you're doing, it doesn't feel like it came out of nowhere, and it still feels like a victory and something you've been striving to do. In ME? It doesn't, because none of those are what you wanted to do, and two of them the series has been about actively showing you are the wrong choice, and all of them result in you destroying the very goal you were aiming for, in exchange for a goal you weren't aiming for.

So, the point isn't that Deus Ex's ending was bad. The point is that it's bad in Mass Effect, especially the way they implemented it so half assed with no proper build up.

Oh hey, I didn't mean to insinuate that you thought the DX ending was bad, I'm just a bit uptight about it and have spent so much time on forums defending it that it's more of an instinct to lay down my cards whenever it's discussed I'm glad to see someone else that appreciated it for what it was.

Makrys wrote...

And yes, we should get back on topic. So... hey there, beautiful. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

I'm sleepy


I'm heading out Have a wonderful night, all!

Modifié par fluffywalrus, 26 mai 2012 - 05:20 .

[MidnightRaith]

Walters and Hudson are on my Black List of writers/authors. Previously, only Karen Traviss's name was on that list. Mainly because all three have that same arrogance in a franchise that I simply find deplorable. All of them thought that they had the single greatest ideas in franchises that were created and maintained by a mulitude of people and none of them should have been allowed to release their final products. (Please note, I am referring to Traviss's work in Legacy of the Force series of books. I have little experience with her outside of that.)

They all come off as thinking that they are more important than the UNIVERSE they write for. Here's a hint, guys. People didn't fall in love with you. They fell in love with the characters you wrote, or the universe you helped write. Add the "artistic integrity" to the mix in Walters/Hudson's case and I'm just sick of the both of them. Mass Effect was bigger than them. They had no right to think they could have ended the series on their own. It was childish and unprofessional in the extreme that they thought they could. I just.... whew, I can't even express just how... deplorable I find them.

EDIT: TOP

Modifié par MidnightRaith, 26 mai 2012 - 05:25 .

[Aristobulus500]

Nharia1 wrote...
most of us have even moved on from the whole ME series entirely...

This is not actually a good thing, and it's rather telling that you include this in a list meant to sway us to the side of thinking such a thread is a good, pleasant place. It points to how absolutely poisonous the endings were, and why I'm so frustrated and burned by it all. ME was never something I wanted to, or expected to, need to move on from quite like this.

I don't intend to, and it's why I've more buried myself in fanworks, recently. Why I came to this forum only after ME3 and never during ME2.