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[Arcataye]

Tyranniac wrote...

Arcataye wrote...

Yeah, pretty much that. Mass Effect 3: There is only ONE choice (42 minutes but safely skippable)

 

I never understood that vid, it starts off saying what 
kyg_20X6 said above, but in the end it turns into IT. Makes no sense.

I didn't look at it that closely, but I figured that the point of it was only to show that both Control and Synthesis are only supported by indoctrinated people. Where does it turn into IT?

The snip from Sovereign's dialogue where he says that the Reapers are the final evolution of life was nice. The catalyst kid talked about the final evolution life choosing Synthesis, but left out the Reaper part.

Modifié par Arcataye, 26 mai 2012 - 05:56 .

[Tyranniac]

Arcataye wrote...

Tyranniac wrote...

Arcataye wrote...

Yeah, pretty much that. Mass Effect 3: There is only ONE choice (42 minutes but safely skippable)

 

I never understood that vid, it starts off saying what 
kyg_20X6 said above, but in the end it turns into IT. Makes no sense.

I didn't look at it that closely, but I figured that the point of it was only to show that both Control and Synthesis are only supported by indoctrinated people. Where does it turn into IT?

At about 39 minutes. Which is really strange. I agree with what it says before that however.

[Aristobulus500]

Control and Synthesis are awful and have no proper build up, except that they've constantly been shown to be the wrong choice. They are just there because one of them, Walters or Hudson had just got done playing Deus Ex and wanted to copy those 3 ending choices.

Synthesis is the worst of all. It's Shepard raping everyone in the galaxy, in some horrifying scenario straight out of "I have no mouth and I must scream". It's downright disturbing and I can barely stand to think about it.

Only Destroy is a reasonable choice, and they tacked on "oh and the Geth/EDI will probably die too" because otherwise it's a brainless choice even if you barely think about the choices and just choose based on first impressions, too, without putting deeper thought into what the choices mean.

Also, Destroy is the only one where Shepard can remain alive, and has a form where he can at all continue a relationship with Liara. After what he did to everyone in Synthesis, Liara would probably be traumatized and deeply hurt and wounded by what he did, and it would shake how she felt towards him. It's a huge betrayal.

That is, if Shepard hasn't snuffed out everything that made Liara, Liara, and she even still exists. Entirely possible that in Synthesis, Shepard lobotomizes Liara and everyone else and none of them exist anymore.

[kyg_20X6]

Jack vs. Liara:

Hmm... not a fight I want to see (love them both!). I'm not sure who is more powerful. Liara's a powerful biotic but I always thought Samara was more powerful (given how she's portrayed) and Jack would be comparable to Samara, or even more powerful. But Jack's powers come unnaturally and I imagine sustained use takes a toll on her body and mind. Whereas it is part of Liara's biology and so I think she'd have more stamina than Jack. On the other hand, I think Jack is more merciless; she wouldn't hesitate to kill. I think Liara might and that could be fatal in a fight with Jack.

I think if it's quick and nasty, Jack might win. But if it's protracted, and/or Liara gets the opportunity to plan, then Liara could outlast and outsmart Jack. And I think, given Liara's occupation, it might be hard for Jack to get the jump on her.

[Aristobulus500]

Jack is going to be a rampaging bull and it's all going to be front loaded with her. She won't be able to sustain her onslaught for very long, and she's not going to be very tricky about it. Liara would be able to read her, and just pace herself and outlast Jack and then she'd beather.

Liara is smarter and more agile than Jack, and has a better tactical mind. That all counts for something. Jack's just a berserker. Liara would completely outwit her and she's close in powers anyway.

And, being an Asari skilled in biotics, it comes more naturally to Liara, so like I said, it's not going to cause nearly as much wear and tear, and exhaustion, in her as it would Jack. It also means that she'll be able to use her biotics in more unorthodox methods to catch Jack off guard, who is just going to be using them in a rather straightforward manner.

Liara fighting Samara would be a lot more difficult, and I'm not sure Liara could win, though again it comes down to if Liara can think up a way to outwit Samara somehow.

[kyg_20X6]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

That is, if Shepard hasn't snuffed out everything that made Liara, Liara, and she even still exists. Entirely possible that in Synthesis, Shepard lobotomizes Liara and everyone else and none of them exist anymore.

Yeah, that is the only way synthesis (assuming it somehow works perfectly at the cellular level and doesn't mutate/kill everyone) could lead to peace: it'd have to make everyone accept it and/or forget what they were previously. This is comparable to rewriting the heretics (except the 'threat' these people pose is hypothetical, if not false). There is no way, if you keep everyone's mind/memories intact, that there will be peace. In fact, it eliminates many of the peacekeeping elements, goodwill and alliances Shepard created and creates new divisions in society that aren't just at the species level but at the individual level. Two friends or family members could fight over their reception of 'synthesis'. As a history major, synthesis throws up so many red flags.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

Yeah, Liara is stronger in gameplay than she's made out to be in the story. Although Benezia had a reputation for being extremely powerful so maybe Liara takes after her.

I think Liara could beat Jack or Samara in a fight but she'd have to be crafty. Jack can deal a load of damage (well in cut scenes anyway) but she charges in without thinking, Liara would use that to her advantage. As for Samara, Liara might have to play dirty like Nihlus did when he fought Samara.

[Arcataye]

About Synthesis: I really, really like TheMarshals "Returned". The real, deep effects of the synthesis are still a mystery, but the small hints about sharing feelings and stuff are great! I wonder how it continues.

Modifié par Arcataye, 26 mai 2012 - 06:20 .

[Theodoro]

Synthesis is an abomination. What happened to organics and synthetics building their own future? Or free will? What happened to rejecting the Reapers' gifts, knowing what it would lead to? Saren was 'a vision of the future' - a union of flesh and steel. And what did that lead to?

Even if we believe for a second that what the Catalyst is saying is actually true, and that Synthesis is possible and that the Reapers won't turn on organics and impose order, I also find issue with the fact that Synthesis is a form of a surrender; a compromise. Throughout all three games, Shepard has been leading up to the goal of destroying the Reapers - why should he/she change that now?

[CrazyGreggy]

Arcataye wrote...

About Synthesis: I really, really like TheMarshals "Returned". The real, deep effects of the synthesis are still a mystery, but the small hints about sharing feelings and stuff are great! I wonder how it continues.

As do we all.

*hint*

[MrStoob]

Liara hasn't really ever trained as a combatant. Sure she can hold her own, but Jack was created to be a biotic killing machine and revel in the carnage. Samara has honed her body and mind to fight without hesitation or thought beyond what the Code dictates, she has to be able to manage any situation on her own due to the solitary role of the Justicar. Liara's 'combat' prior to meeting Shepard was mainly just fending off bands of privateers or indigenous life forms.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Tyranniac wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

I have to go down for dinner in a moment so I will just answer your very last question (i'll come back later).

If you notice. The Catalyst is an advanced AI living on the Citadel. And since the Citadel gets destroyed it is easy to assume that the catalyst died with it.

To futher prove this. The Reapers seemingly leave out of their own free will, because in synthesis they are no longer needed and the catalyst is gone.

The Citadel is damaged, but not completely destroyed. And the Crucible chamber seems fairly intact considering Shepard survived in it in Destroy (the destruction in Destroy and Synthesis is the same, yes?). As for the Reapers, they probably do leave because they are no longer needed as you say. Everything is now "perfect", like them. Suppose the Catalyst might deactive once its purpose is fulfilled, or not, depending on if it is separate from the Reapers or not.

The Citadel's arms gets torn off, and for all we know, the catalyst needs the Citadel intact to survive.

Maybe I should not have said proof since that is a strong word, but from a story telling standpoint I cannot see the catalyst surviving in synthesis. The cycle is over and the catalyst has no reason to exist anymore, so him and the Citadel are destroyed. The Reapers are free and leave, since they are no longer slaves to the cycle.

Just how I view it.

kyg_20X6
Control; control isn't as black and white. Especially since it's not
exactly clear what happens to Shepard. Shepard dies, and the Reapers fly
off, but we don't know if that's actually at Shepard's command or the
Catalyst's. There is no reason to trust that Shepard would be able to
succeed where TIM failed. But let's assume he does, and is now some
strange being inhabiting the Citadel (or something) and controlling the
Reaper fleet. The Alliance now has control of the Reapers. Do you not
think that will give the other races pause? There will be huge
resentment at the fact the Reapers haven't been destroyed... and now the
Alliance has them!? As Garrus says, 'there will be a lot of angry
orphans looking for answers'. I can see whole races, or at least
significant chunks of them, deciding to attack the Reapers out of
vengeance. The Alliance/Shepard would then have to decide if they let
the Reapers be destroyed or defend them. Probably the later for this
ending, otherwise what's the point? This will lead to war. Control to me
seems to follow from the pro-human renegade options of previous games
(killing the Council, saving the Collector Base). I don't think Liara
would approve of this. EDIT: Shepard is gone. No relationship. I think
Liara would look back fondly on her time with Shepard but not on
Shepard's decision.

The Alliance is given control of the Reapers? Says who? Shepard is under no obligiation as the new catalyst to give them the fleet.

Maybe your Shepard desires human domiance over others, but mine does not. He will just force the Reapers to leave and stay in darkspace or have them simply self-destruct.

Control: Allied Solution
Synthesis: Reaper Solution
Destroy: Allied Solution

Changed. Control can practicly be turned into destroy without colleteral damage.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 26 mai 2012 - 06:27 .

[Tyranniac]

Lizardviking wrote...

Control can practicly be turned into destroy without colleteral damage.

Except we don't know if Shepard's control lasts. Even if the control is effective, maybe Shepard isn't allowed to destroy the Reapers? Maybe they have to be kept because they're meant to "preserve" the previous cycle's races. What would the allied forces of the galaxy think of this?

Also, we know that the minds and the technology of the Reapers is dangerous. Control is what the Illusive Man wanted and how did that end up?

And what is Shepard's fate? What would the power of control over the Reapers do? Not to mention the new form of conciousness Shepard would have. Would she really be able to remain herself?

Modifié par Tyranniac, 26 mai 2012 - 06:42 .

[IliyaMoroumetz]

Arcataye wrote...

Obsidian Gryphon wrote...

Presuming Aethyta wasn't pulling Liara's leg, yes, I would like them to meet. They're family after all. Should be interesting to see what kind of temperament / character the sister has. Providing every line doesn't start with : This One Is ....  

Sister: "This one is pleased to finally meet you. This one is half hanar."
Liara: "But it doesn't work that way!"
Sister: "Ha, just teasing you. Wanted to see if you'd head-butt me."
Liara: "Not funny!"
Aethyta: "Now careful with the bloodrage, you said it would be nice to meet your sister."
Liara: "I'd say she is less than half hanar and more like you, father."

??

I am currently writing a short ME fanfic story inviolving her and even took the liberties to give this half-hanar sister a name.  With your permission, could I use this exchange?


On other subjects; I have to say, I like the idea of Shepard leaving the Alliance and becoming Shadow Broker Liara's right hand (wo)man.  When Liara said, 'this time, everyone follows 'our' lead.' she meant it.

Not touching the endings.  Too depressing.

When it comes to fanfiction, you have realize that in writing Liara, she's a combination of cunning, awkwardness, naivety, kindness, and a slight bit of OCD.  That's why we love her.

[kyg_20X6]

Lizardviking wrote...

The Alliance is given control of the Reapers? Says who? Shepard is under no obligiation as the new catalyst to give them the fleet.

Maybe your Shepard desires human domiance over others, but mine does not. He will just force the Reapers to leave and stay in darkspace or have them simply self-destruct.

BioWare will assume that someone choosing control accepts TIM's ideology, at least as far as 'harnessing the Reapers to better everyone else'. A Shepard choosing that will not give them up. Shepard is with the Alliance. Whether they are handed over to the Alliance, work with the Alliance, or not: other species would see it that way. If the Reapers are around, they won't be happy. If BW show the repercussions of the choices, there is no way they will let 'control' play out as 'destroy without  colleteral damage'. If they don't show it, then I guess you're free to headcanon that you outsmarted the Catalyst. Meanwhile, I'll be headcanoning my Shep and Liara sipping cocktails on the beach, basking in the warm light of flaming Reaper hulks.

Modifié par kyg_20X6, 26 mai 2012 - 06:46 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Tyranniac wrote...
Except we don't know if Shepard's control lasts. Even if the control is effective, maybe Shepard isn't allowed to destroy the Reapers? Maybe they have to be kept because they're meant to "preserve" the previous cycle's races. What would the allied forces of the galaxy think of this?

Also, we know that minds and the technology of the Reapers is dangerous. Control is what the Illusive Man wanted and how did that end up?

And what is Shepard's fate? What would the power of control over the Reapers do? Not to mention the new form of conciousness Shepard would have. Would she really be able to remain herself?

True, we don't know anything about how safe control is or how it works, because the dialog with the Catalyst right now is so bogged down in ambiguity and nonsense that we can only make vague guesses about the writer's intention. Which is why I look back on the leaked script in terms of what the different choices would do. And in the leaked script contol is pretty clear cut, Shepard becomes the catalyst and controls the Reapers.

God I hope EC will fix all this.

kyg_20X6 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

The
Alliance is given control of the Reapers? Says who? Shepard is under no
obligiation as the new catalyst to give them the fleet.

Maybe
your Shepard desires human domiance over others, but mine does not. He
will just force the Reapers to leave and stay in darkspace or have them
simply self-destruct.

BioWare will assume that
someone choosing control accepts TIM's ideology, at least as far as
'harnessing the Reapers to better everyone else'. A Shepard choosing
that will not give them up. Shepard is with the Alliance. Whether they
are handed over to the Alliance, work with the Alliance, or not: other
species would see it that way. If the Reapers are around, they won't be
happy. If BW show the repercussions of the choices, there is no way they
will let 'control' play out as 'destroy without the bad stuff'. If they
don't show it, then I guess you're free to headcannon that you
outsmarted the Catalyst. Meanwhile, I'll be headcannoning my Shep and
Liara sipping cocktails on the beach, basking in the warm light of
flaming Reaper hulks. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

Execpt that Bioware practicly made Shepard unable to be pro-human in ME3 (something that already started in ME2), so the idea that Shepard hands them over to the Alliance is nothing more than your own theory.

[Tyranniac]

Lizardviking wrote...

Execpt that Bioware practicly made Shepard unable to be pro-human in ME3 (something that already started in ME2), so the idea that Shepard hands them over to the Alliance is nothing more than your own theory.

Huh? ME3 was the only game where my main shep was forced to be pro-human at some points. 

Modifié par Tyranniac, 26 mai 2012 - 06:56 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

Jack is going to be a rampaging bull and it's all going to be front loaded with her. She won't be able to sustain her onslaught for very long, and she's not going to be very tricky about it. Liara would be able to read her, and just pace herself and outlast Jack and then she'd beather.

Liara is smarter and more agile than Jack, and has a better tactical mind. That all counts for something. Jack's just a berserker. Liara would completely outwit her and she's close in powers anyway.

And, being an Asari skilled in biotics, it comes more naturally to Liara, so like I said, it's not going to cause nearly as much wear and tear, and exhaustion, in her as it would Jack. It also means that she'll be able to use her biotics in more unorthodox methods to catch Jack off guard, who is just going to be using them in a rather straightforward manner.

Liara fighting Samara would be a lot more difficult, and I'm not sure Liara could win, though again it comes down to if Liara can think up a way to outwit Samara somehow.

I don't Liara would be able to beat Samara (unless we start bringing in civilians that Liara could threaten and use to her advantage, but I would prefer Liara not to).

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Tyranniac wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Execpt that Bioware practicly made Shepard unable to be pro-human in ME3 (something that already started in ME2), so the idea that Shepard hands them over to the Alliance is nothing more than your own theory.

Huh? ME3 was the only game where my main shep was forced to be pro-human at some points. 

Shepard cares about Earth, but he never expresses the desire of human domination or superiority.

[Aristobulus500]

Lizardviking wrote...
Execpt that Bioware practicly made Shepard unable to be pro-human in ME3 (something that already started in ME2), so the idea that Shepard hands them over to the Alliance is nothing more than your own theory.

What the ****? Did you play the same game I did? Because in my game, Shepard went around telling the races "sure your homeworld is under attack and being destroyed but but EARTH IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOUR **** MAN, ABANDON YOUR PLANET AND COME SAVE EARTH"

Because if anything, you can't be pro-alien.

[kumquats]

I'm doing a playthrough with every Squadi dead, expect Wrex. Just had the dream sequence with everyone talking. Damn... and so many new Liara dialogues, my savegames will be full in no time. o.O

[Tyranniac]

kumquats wrote...

I'm doing a playthrough with every Squadi dead, expect Wrex. Just had the dream sequence with everyone talking. Damn... and so many new Liara dialogues, my savegames will be full in no time. o.O

Oh? Care to share some examples? 

Lizardviking wrote...

God I hope EC will fix all this.

 

Don't we all? 

I really hope they don't make Control into Destroy without the friendly fire though, because that would make Destroy pointless, and would mean Shepard has to die. Never seeing Liara again. 

[kyg_20X6]

Lizardviking wrote...

Execpt that Bioware practicly made Shepard unable to be pro-human in ME3 (something that already started in ME2), so the idea that Shepard hands them over to the Alliance is nothing more than your own theory.

Didn't say Shepard was pro-human, just you accept part of TIM's ideology (although I'm sure Shepard assumes they can do it without losing their morals). And I said it doesn't matter if he hands them over, just no matter what your allies won't like the Reapers being kept around.

If you're refering to when I said I saw it in the vein of killing off the council or keeping the collector base, neither of those choices are necessarily 'pro-human'. You may have been chosing them for strategic reasons. But the repercussions were bonuses to humanity and Cerberus (respecitvely), at the cost of the other races. I just meant I see 'control' in that vein. 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions'.

Modifié par kyg_20X6, 26 mai 2012 - 07:00 .

[CrimsonN7]

Arcataye wrote...

But honestly I don't see them fighting at all. Maybe if there was a situation where they could blame each other for Shepard's death or something quite far-fetched... That was a really weird question by the way, CrimsonN7.

Come on mate it's no weirder than some of the questions that are posted on the forums in general;) I could imagine it happening if they did the Jack being kidnapped by Cerberus right in ME3, lets say when you encountered her at Cronas Station, if it was a mini boss battle and you could pick a team member to fight her. Hopefully Jack wouldn't be just another bloody Phantom, that was an just insult to her reputation in my book. <_<

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

kyg_20X6 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Execpt that Bioware practicly made Shepard unable to be pro-human in ME3 (something that already started in ME2), so the idea that Shepard hands them over to the Alliance is nothing more than your own theory.

Didn't say Shepard was pro-human, just you accept part of TIM's ideology (although I'm sure Shepard assumes they can do it without losing their morals). And I said it doesn't matter if he hands them over, just no matter what your allies won't like the Reapers being kept around.

I highly doubt Shepard will have the Reapers parked in the sol systemthe, if anything I think we can expect the EC to show the Reapers retreating into dark space again. In which case I doubt the aliens will be mad at humanity.

If you're refering to when I said I saw it in the vein of killing off the council or keeping the collector base, neither of those choices are necessarily 'pro-human'. You may have been chosing them for strategic reasons. But the repercussions were bonuses to humanity and Cerberus (respecitvely), at the cost of the other races. I just meant I see 'control' in that vein. 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions'.

And that where we simply disagree. Control benefits whoever Shepard wants it to, which in my case means everyone.

"EDIT"
This place needs some blue goodness.
http://desmond.image...jpg&res=landing

Modifié par Lizardviking, 26 mai 2012 - 07:13 .