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[Aristobulus500]

MidnightRaith wrote...

Aristobulus500 wrote...

I don't disagree with much of what you said - that is, I do think the game takes place over a larger period of time than what we're shown, so that was very likely not at all the 2nd conversation Liara and Shep had had, just the 2nd one the player saw; I also agree that Liara did not like Ashley, there's no reason to think she did.

But Ashley was the one being all mean and hostile and angry, Liara was pretty calm and collected about everything.

I don't see how anything you said points towards that Liara would be passive aggressive, especially since that's actually pretty immature thing to do.

I think she'd be passive aggressive at first. Before she has the time to develop significant social skills. Coming from someone that actually had the problem of somebody acting pretty hostile towards me, it takes some time to be able to stick up for yourself. Liara starts out pretty shy and unsure of herself in social situations. Even the place she hangs out in lends itself to her less than social nature. If she chose to defend herself towards Ashley, I don't think it started out as obvious.

I'm not saying that she hid Ash's belongings or spread rumors about her or any of the nastier bits of being passive aggressive, but I do think she may have made the occasional "innocent" comment towards her. The Liara that stumbles over an innuendo doesn't mesh well with the Liara that confronts Shepard with Ashley if you make the assumption that she was always direct and upfront because she wasn't. I believe significant character development took place for Liara behind the scenes there.

Ah, I see, you're talking about Liara being passive aggressive very early on into ME1. I can see that. I thought you were saying Liara would be passive aggressive well into ME3, for an Ashley/Liara confrontation or something.

[IliyaMoroumetz]

CrimsonN7 wrote...

Just been reading a few fanfic pieces recently and have come across some interesting one's in regards to Specialist Samantha Traynor and Liara vying for the Commander's attention. Acknowledging Samantha's obvious crush on femshep one author pictured Liara getting a little paranoid about Samantha's desire to be close by to Shep. Below is a summary of said fan-fiction.

Although Shepard was preoccupied with data reports coming in and organising the troops she recently acquired to notice Samantha encroaching her personal space, subtly touching her arm and smiling uncontrollably whenever Shep paid her a work related compliment Liara noticed and was silently fuming that other's weren't aware that Shepard and her were exclusive.:pinched:Confiding in EDI about her relationship issue, EDI pointed out that it's only naturally for others to take an active interest in Shepard as many have never witnessed them together in public as a couple.

Liara knew that excessive PDA in the workplace would be inappropriate and unprofessional so she decided to catch Shepard off guard, sneaking into her quarters and reminding Shepard of what she has at home. This meld was purposely more intense, it gave Shepard a biotic lovebite of sorts so when Traynor tried to place a wandering hand on Shep the next day it gave her a little jolt which forced Shepard to tell Traynor that her and Liara are exclusive. If I find the link I'll post it.

Anyway could any of you guys/gals see Liara resorting to such tactics or do you think she would be secure enough in Shepard's commitment to her to not get worried about any young pretty little thing that makes googly eyes at Shepard? Seeing Liara react like this is how my Shep felt when rescuing Feron, my Shep was a little bit paranoid but I love the fact that Liara reassured Shep that she only has eyes for her. I would have loved to have been able to reassure Liara if she had any lingering doubts in her mind about Shepard's commitment to her.

After numerous playthroughs I have really grown quite fond of Samantha and I could see a few similarities in her personality that match to Liara's and I believe these two would get on quite well regardless. Samantha and my canon Shep have alot in common both being colony kids and I can't deny that my femshep has looked but would never act on her impulse, she loves Liara. If my Shep wasn't involved I would pursue her in a heartbeat but alas I can't for the love of me create a femshep renegade or paragon and not romance Liara, it's just too damn hard.

That's one of my stories you're referring to.

I feel so honored! XD

http://www.fanfictio...535/1/Hands_Off

PMC65 wrote...

MegaBadExample - There wasn't enough Ash
once she was back on the Normandy. She felt like Zaeed or Kasumi
onboard. Shame really. It would have been nice to see her and Liara in
Kasuma's old room hanging out and chatting.

Agreed.

I can just imagine some of the things they've talked about.

Liara:  Congratulations on your promotion, Ashley.
Ash:  Thank you.
Liara:  I'm aware it was none of my business, however, word got around that it was because of your grandfather.
Ash:  Well, it's not like it was a state secret or anything.
Liara:  True, however, I still find it deplorable that both you and your father had to suffer because your grandfather did what he felt was best.
Ash:  Well, you don't exactly get a chance to choose your circumstance.  Like where you were born, whom you were born from, and so on.
Liara:  ...I can understand that.
Ash:  The best you can do is work with what you got and move on.  It took some time, but it finally paid off.  
Liara:  Some of us aren't so fortunate, however, I won't burden you with my own problems.
Ash:  Liara, please.  I was there on Noveria, remember?  And I may not know everything about Asari culture, but I've heard things about why you're not exactly social with most other asari.
Liara:  ...indeed.
Ash:  For what it's worth, it never mattered to me.  I was just suspicious of you, Tali, Wrex, and Garrus back on the first Normandy.  
Liara:  *rolled eyes*  A small comfort, to be sure.
Ash:   *laughs* And guess what?  I was wrong about you guys and got over it.  I just wished you told me about what happened after the SR-1 went down.  The reason why Horizon went so bad was because I felt out of the loop.
Liara:  I apologize for that.
Ash:  *Waves it off* That's in the past now.  Besides, we got some Reapers to beat.  After that, I'd like to hear about your mother.
Liara:  *Nods* I would like that.  And only if you tell me about your family in return.
Ash:  *smiles* It's a deal.

Something along those lines, I think.

Modifié par IliyaMoroumetz, 29 mai 2012 - 05:31 .

[DarkCloudd]

IliyaMoroumetz wrote...

CrimsonN7 wrote...

*snipped text to keep the tree down*

That's one of my stories you're referring to.

I feel so honored! XD

http://www.fanfictio...535/1/Hands_Off

PMC65 wrote...

MegaBadExample - There wasn't enough Ash
once she was back on the Normandy. She felt like Zaeed or Kasumi
onboard. Shame really. It would have been nice to see her and Liara in
Kasuma's old room hanging out and chatting.

Agreed.

I can just imagine some of the things they've talked about.

*snipped something that should have been in game*

Something along those lines, I think.

I thought that was you but I wasn't completely sure and didn't want to make a fool of myself if it wasn't you. It was a very well done story!!

About the dialogue thing I snipped. With as little as the VS had in game it almost seems like they didn't intend to have them come back in ME3. Its like they brought them back only because alot of people asked them too and not cause the writers wanted them to come back. There could and should have been much more with them but since they went the route of "lets injure the VS in the first 10 minutes of the game and have them sit out for almost half of it so people can use the new characters that we put in there and to make some kind of drama". I just don't think it was handled very well personally, granted I have yet to make a character that is a VSmancer so I don't know if they are different in that regard.

[Theodoro]

Just a quick question: Do we know whether asari carry their babies the same length humans do before giving birth or is it longer (since they have longer life-spans)? I don't think we've seen evidence to the fact that they do, but it's still something I might have missed somewhere in the Codex entries.

[Aristobulus500]

Theodoro wrote...

Just a quick question: Do we know whether asari carry their babies the same length humans do before giving birth or is it longer (since they have longer life-spans)? I don't think we've seen evidence to the fact that they do, but it's still something I might have missed somewhere in the Codex entries.

Far as I know, the games never say. Hell, we don't even know how long an asari is actually in a form we'd recognize as a child, adolescent, teenager, and so on.

[MidnightRaith]

Theodoro wrote...

Just a quick question: Do we know whether asari carry their babies the same length humans do before giving birth or is it longer (since they have longer life-spans)? I don't think we've seen evidence to the fact that they do, but it's still something I might have missed somewhere in the Codex entries.

I don't understand why people seem to think they would. The codex states that asari have long lifespans because of their robust cellular regeneration. Biologically, that is literally the only reason we age. Cells don't grow as quickly as they used to and they don't do it as well. Essentially as we get older, mitosis slowly loses its effeciency and speed.

That means that asari can age physically at the same rate as we can. What the difference is, and what probably confuses people, that because it is their cells that make them eternally young, they don't have to mentally age at the same rate which is why you hear things in game like Samara saying Morinth ran away at age 40 or something and that being young for an asari. Physically she is 40 and mentally she could be around 18-20. I suspect that asari are similar to humans from up to probably 18-20. After that, we begin to mentally age more significantly because we have to. Asari can be static for decades at a time because they have years upon years to mature.

[Theodoro]

Aristobulus500 wrote...
Far as I know, the games never say. Hell, we don't even know how long an asari is actually in a form we'd recognize as a child, adolescent, teenager, and so on.

Guess the only thing we have is speculation, then. Well, since we haven't seen proof to the contrary, then I'd guess that the length is the same.

MidnightRaith wrote...
I don't understand why people seem to think they would. The codex states that asari have long lifespans because of their robust cellular regeneration. Biologically, that is literally the only reason we age. Cells don't grow as quickly as they used to and they don't do it as well. Essentially as we get older, mitosis slowly loses its effeciency and speed.

Thanks for pointing that out - I had forgotten. You do have a point. I just wanted to make sure.

Modifié par Theodoro, 29 mai 2012 - 06:22 .

[Aristobulus500]

jreezy wrote...

That does indeed sound like a conversation they would have. Nicely done.

I don't know that I agree. Do we have any actual evidence that Ashley has gotten over her xenophobia in ME3? Or is this just some retconning you're doing because you like Ashley but don't like the xenophobia side of her?

I honestly am curious about this, because all I can think of is in ME2 where she still freely admits to hating aliens, on Horizon.

You can't just excise an entire part of a persons character just because you don't like it, to mold them into a character that you feel is better.

[IliyaMoroumetz]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

I don't know that I agree. Do we have any actual evidence that Ashley has gotten over her xenophobia in ME3? Or is this just some retconning you're doing because you like Ashley but don't like the xenophobia side of her?

I honestly am curious about this, because all I can think of is in ME2 where she still freely admits to hating aliens, on Horizon.

You can't just excise an entire part of a persons character just because you don't like it, to mold them into a character that you feel is better.

Believe it or not, if you talk with Ashley a lot in ME1, she gets over it.  There was no retconning at all.  Or are you objecting to this because you see nothing but the xenophobia and that you find it objectionable that she has actually moved on from that?   Because I saw nothing of the sort going on in ME2 or 3.

And honestly, any anti-alien sentiments were minimal and overblown. And if there were any traces of it, they certainly didn't manifest in ME2, for the whole five minutes she appeared.  She was just chewing you out because she saw you working with Cerberus.

Modifié par IliyaMoroumetz, 29 mai 2012 - 06:35 .

[MidnightRaith]

Theodoro wrote...

Thanks for pointing that out - I had forgotten. You do have a point. I just wanted to make sure.

Yeah, it's a good question and one that doesn't see much attention. I've already read a few fics that pick at this little pet peeve of mine. "Ah, yes Shepard I will be pregnant for the next 2-4 years." <_< Sigh... Let's think about this biologically for a moment. You are very vulnerable while pregnant. It is one of the most vulnerable points during the lifespans of various species like infancy and old age. If asari were pregnant for years then I'd imagine that not many asari actually made it to the birth of their young during the infancy of their species's age. 2-4 years of being that vulnerable while evading any natural predators or just any accident or infection...? One of the most illogical things I commonly see picked up in the fandom.

[IliyaMoroumetz]

MidnightRaith wrote...

Yeah, it's a good question and one that doesn't see much attention. I've already read a few fics that pick at this little pet peeve of mine. "Ah, yes Shepard I will be pregnant for the next 2-4 years." <_< Sigh... Let's think about this biologically for a moment. You are very vulnerable while pregnant. It is one of the most vulnerable points during the lifespans of various species like infancy and old age. If asari were pregnant for years then I'd imagine that not many asari actually made it to the birth of their young during the infancy of their species's age. 2-4 years of being that vulnerable while evading any natural predators or just any accident or infection...? One of the most illogical things I commonly see picked up in the fandom.

I always figured that since they live longer the gestation period is longer, however, as you said, it would make them vulnerable for longer.  So, I would imagine they would have to be pregnent for a period of time longer than it would take for a human to grow.  

My personal pet theory?  10 to 11 months?

[Aristobulus500]

IliyaMoroumetz wrote...

Believe it or not, if you talk with Ashley a lot in ME1, she gets over it.  There was no retconning at all.  Or are you objecting to this because you see nothing but the xenophobia and that you find it objectionable that she has actually moved on from that?   Because I saw nothing of the sort going on in ME3.

Except she doesn't get over it. "I have my share of problems with aliens" or something of that sort. You can talk her down from it in ME1 but it doesn't stick, just like paragon'ing Garrus doesn't really stick, and Renegad'ing Kaidan doesn't stick either. All of them go back to their normal ways, and for Ashley that's xenophobia.

I really think you're just desperately trying to pretend she's not the space racist she is, because you otherwise like her and you don't want to admit to yourself that you can like a racist character.

Modifié par Aristobulus500, 29 mai 2012 - 06:36 .

[IliyaMoroumetz]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

Except she doesn't get over it. "I have my share of problems with aliens" or something of that sort. You can talk her down from it in ME1 but it doesn't stick, just like paragon'ing Garrus doesn't really stick, and Renegad'ing Kaidan doesn't stick either. All of them go back to their normal ways, and for Ashley that's xenophobia.

I really think you're just desperately trying to pretend she's not
the space racist she is, because you otherwise like her and you don't
want to admit to yourself that you can like a racist character.

Either provide concrete proof or don't bother talking.  Honestly. you're picking at a scab that means next to nothing in the grand scheme of things, in a thread that doesn't even talk about Ashley.

Look who's talking.  You're desperately trying to use one very minor aspect of a character and trying to make that everything that the character is.  But you know what?  Keep on claiming Ashley's racist with no real proof.  This is a Liara thread.  So, knock it off!

Modifié par IliyaMoroumetz, 29 mai 2012 - 06:39 .

[Han Shot First]

Asari seem to reach adulthood somewhere between 40 and 60. Morinth as we know, leaves home around the time she is 40 years old, but we are also told that this is unusually young for an Asari to be independent. So at the time Morinth left home she was probably the equivalent of a human that had just reached adulthood, or was on the cusp of it. So I'd guess that she was the equivalent of the human somewhere between 16 and 19 years old.

On Illium you can also overhear an Asari looking to join Eclipse say something about being 60 years old and finally out of the house and on her own. She is probably around the more typical age when Asari become independent, because we know Liara had been an archaeologist for 50 years prior to ME1. Since Liara was 106 at the start of ME1, that would put her at 56 at the time she started her career. With that in mind, I'd guess that 60 for an Asari is the rough equivalent of a human at around 22 to 24, when they are typically out of college and starting new careers.

I'm not sure  though if we can make any guesses on how long Asari pregnancy would last based on that.

My guess it that it does not last much longer than it does for humans, and that as small children Asari age and grow at a similar rate as human children initially, but that it gradually begins to slow down. The reason why I think their pregnancies wouldn't last long and that they would not remain small children for significantly longer periods of time compared to humans, is that in their primitive pasts it would have made the pregnant mothers and small children extremely vulnerable to both predation and enviromental stresses. There is an advantage to growing quickly and no longer needing to nurse from your mother, and finally being able to take part in hunts.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 29 mai 2012 - 06:40 .

[Aristobulus500]

IliyaMoroumetz wrote...

Aristobulus500 wrote...

Except she doesn't get over it. "I have my share of problems with aliens" or something of that sort. You can talk her down from it in ME1 but it doesn't stick, just like paragon'ing Garrus doesn't really stick, and Renegad'ing Kaidan doesn't stick either. All of them go back to their normal ways, and for Ashley that's xenophobia.

Either provide concrete proof or don't bother talking.  Honestly. you're picking at a scab that means next to nothing in the grand scheme of things, in a thread that doesn't even talk about Ashley.

You berate me for proof after you're the one claiming Ashley Williams is not xenophobic?

And trying to claim this irrelevant to Liara now? Lest you forget, it started cause there was a claim that Ashley/Liara would be all buddy-buddy which is just not the case with Ashley's xenophobia in the way.

Edit - "very minor aspect" Hah! It's straight up half of her character, with the other half being regret over her family's military history.

Modifié par Aristobulus500, 29 mai 2012 - 06:43 .

[MidnightRaith]

IliyaMoroumetz wrote...

I always figured that since they live longer the gestation period is longer, however, as you said, it would make them vulnerable for longer.  So, I would imagine they would have to be pregnent for a period of time longer than it would take for a human to grow.  

My personal pet theory?  10 to 11 months?

See, that makes sense only being one to two months longer. I mean, it's not like your body faffs about while you're developing in the womb. There is a process and something is always being done during development. It's not like they're significantly larger than humans or anything. What the heck would they be developing during those 2-4 years? You don't just pause or go really, really slowly during that time....

[Generic Screen Name]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

You berate me for proof after you're the one claiming Ashley Williams is not xenophobic?

Most evidence points to Ash not being xenophobic or racist. Including her writer coming out and saying that she isn't.

[IliyaMoroumetz]

Aristobulus500 wrote...
You berate me for proof after you're the one claiming Ashley Williams is not xenophobic?

And trying to claim this irrelevant to Liara now? Lest you forget, it started cause there was a claim that Ashley/Liara would be all buddy-buddy which is just not the case with Ashley's xenophobia in the way.

Where did I claim they would be?  All I did was say that if they did have more dialogue for them, it was a probable conversation.  You're the one that came in swinging saying, "OMG!  ASH'S BE RACIST!  THAT NOT POSSIBLE!!!!!" like some hyperconservative pundit.  The burden of evidence is on you for proving that she never got over it.  All you did was use a potentially remembered phrase that could be a possible variation of the many, MANY lines of dialogue in the game.

Start showing me concrete evdience that Ash never gets over it and I'll take you seriously and not as a troll, until then, be silent.  

Generic Screen Name wrote...

Most evidence points to Ash not being xenophobic or racist. Including her writer coming out and saying that she isn't.

So, tell me, Aris, since Ashley's writer has come out and said that Ashley isn't racist, are you going to say that the writer's wrong too?

Modifié par IliyaMoroumetz, 29 mai 2012 - 06:48 .

[Aristobulus500]

Generic Screen Name wrote...

Aristobulus500 wrote...

You berate me for proof after you're the one claiming Ashley Williams is not xenophobic?

Most evidence points to Ash not being xenophobic or racist. Including her writer coming out and saying that she isn't.

Remember that the "writers" want us to believe the endings are art. What they intend and what they write can be two totally different things, we've seen that already in the same series.

Ashley straight up tells you she doesn't trust aliens, throughout ME1 and in her appearance in ME2. Xenophobia is an entire half of her character, and if you're going to be a fan of her, the least you could do is cop to her flaws, too, rather than just pretending they don't exist.

Edit - The guy who thinks Ashley isn't xenophobic wants to brand me a troll. This is too much.

So, tell me, Aris, since Ashley's writer has come out and said that Ashley isn't racist, are you going to say that the writer's wrong too?

Absolutely. "Death of the Author" is actually a thing, and it's been used extensively by the fans already, in reaction to the ending. What the writer wants and intends doesn't matter in the slightest bit, all that matters is what they write.

And what Ashley's writer wrote was a xenophobic character, even if that wasn't the intention.

Modifié par Aristobulus500, 29 mai 2012 - 06:51 .

[Yuqi]

So Renegade hating and now Ashley hating, oh how this thread hath fallen..

[IliyaMoroumetz]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

Generic Screen Name wrote...

Aristobulus500 wrote...

You berate me for proof after you're the one claiming Ashley Williams is not xenophobic?

Most evidence points to Ash not being xenophobic or racist. Including her writer coming out and saying that she isn't.

Remember that the "writers" want us to believe the endings are art. What they intend and what they write can be two totally different things, we've seen that already in the same series.

Ashley straight up tells you she doesn't trust aliens, throughout ME1 and in her appearance in ME2. Xenophobia is an entire half of her character, and if you're going to be a fan of her, the least you could do is cop to her flaws, too, rather than just pretending they don't exist.

Yeah, the ending and the characters aren't two seperate aspects of the game's story that can work interdependently and now, it seems, you've become the only authority on the matter.

Seriously, shut up.

Yuqi wrote...

So Renegade hating and now Ashley hating, oh how this thread hath fallen..

Inform laughing boy up there that his view isn't the only one and perhaps we may get this thread back on track.

Modifié par IliyaMoroumetz, 29 mai 2012 - 06:51 .

[Han Shot First]

Ashley's hostility towards Liara has more to due with jealousy than it does xenophobia, IMO. With male Shep she is viewing Liara as romantic rival. Ashley after all seems to get on well enough with Tali, who is also an alien. She'll even tell Tali in one of those elevator conversations that she hopes her contributions against the Geth are recognized and help end discrimination against the Quarians.

Ashley isn't really a racist. That accusation that she is mostly based on one bugged line of dialogue, where she'll state that she can't tell the aliens from the animals. This line however was meant to only be said in reference to the keepers, who are little more than animals.

If Ashley is brought along to the Terra Firma Party rally in ME1, she'll also act quite hostile to them and make it clear that she thinks their racist platform is an embarrasment for humanity. Ashley is very pro-human and she isn't yet ready to fully trust aliens, but she's not a racist.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 29 mai 2012 - 06:53 .