56469 réponses à ce sujet

[MidnightRaith]

Whoa, whoa, whoa guys. May I remind you all that this is not the Ashley thread? This is getting pretty heated. There is little point in discussing this since it obviously brings out hostility and only serves to make hard feelings. Let's get back on topic please.

[IliyaMoroumetz]

MidnightRaith wrote...

Whoa, whoa, whoa guys. May I remind you all that this is not the Ashley thread? This is getting pretty heated. There is little point in discussing this since it obviously brings out hostility and only serves to make hard feelings. Let's get back on topic please.

It was going quite fine until SOMEBODY had to ruin the fun and try to push their perception of the character in question as the only one.

But yes, let's move on.

Modifié par IliyaMoroumetz, 29 mai 2012 - 06:54 .

[MidnightRaith]

IliyaMoroumetz wrote...

It was going quite fine until SOMEBODY had to ruin the fun and try to push their perception of the character in question as the only one.

That's not dropping the subject.

I liked the aging topic. Does anyone have anything to add about that? I think they would age at the same rate as humans up to about 18-20. I think Han Shot First said that they'd age up to mid teens. Any other ideas?

Modifié par MidnightRaith, 29 mai 2012 - 06:56 .

[Obsidian Gryphon]

More blue please!

[PMC65]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

jreezy wrote...

That does indeed sound like a conversation they would have. Nicely done.

I don't know that I agree. Do we have any actual evidence that Ashley has gotten over her xenophobia in ME3? Or is this just some retconning you're doing because you like Ashley but don't like the xenophobia side of her?

I honestly am curious about this, because all I can think of is in ME2 where she still freely admits to hating aliens, on Horizon.

You can't just excise an entire part of a persons character just because you don't like it, to mold them into a character that you feel is better.

Ash does not trust aliens but she also does not think humans are superior. She tells Shepard this in ME if you take time to really talk to her. Make of it what you will ... we all bring our own luggage into the story.

But whatever label you slap on Ash ... in-game she will tell Shepard to go check on Liara after her mother dies and she also personally talks to Ash after the fall of Thessia, knowing that Liara is hurting. Ash is a kind person at heart as you see with not only those actions but also with Nirali's widower and even her Alliance record. 

[Aristobulus500]

parting shot, there, dude. You wanna move on, I'm all for it, but how about actually dropping it instead of ending it on a snide comment like that?

For future reference, really, that is. If you want to stop an argument, just stop arguing. Just don't post on the issue anymore. Don't make petty comments and then go "oh but let's move on after I've gotten the last word."

[PMC65]

MidnightRaith wrote...

IliyaMoroumetz wrote...

It was going quite fine until SOMEBODY had to ruin the fun and try to push their perception of the character in question as the only one.

That's not dropping the subject.

I liked the aging topic. Does anyone have anything to add about that? I think they would age at the same rate as humans up to about 18-20. I think Han Shot First said that they'd age up to mid teens. Any other ideas?

I think they age the same as well ... as far as the not moving out until they are much older just think of them as Italian men. They tend to live at home FOREVER. No one loves them like mama! Sorry, I had to go there.

[IliyaMoroumetz]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

parting shot, there, dude. You wanna move on, I'm all for it, but how about actually dropping it instead of ending it on a snide comment like that?

For future reference, really, that is. If you want to stop an argument, just stop arguing. Just don't post on the issue anymore. Don't make petty comments and then go "oh but let's move on after I've gotten the last word."

Just like you're doing?  It never ends!

[MidnightRaith]

PMC65 wrote...

I think they age the same as well ... as far as the not moving out until they are much older just think of them as Italian men. They tend to live at home FOREVER. No one loves them like mama! Sorry, I had to go there.

 Well, I suspect that asari are real Mamma's girls. Likely to the extent you paint it out in your fic. Now that I think about it, that thought makes the whole Samara/her kids thing that more tragic. 

[Aristobulus500]

PMC65 wrote...
Ash does not trust aliens but she also does not think humans are superior. She tells Shepard this in ME if you take time to really talk to her. Make of it what you will ... we all bring our own luggage into the story.

But whatever label you slap on Ash ... in-game she will tell Shepard to go check on Liara after her mother dies and she also personally talks to Ash after the fall of Thessia, knowing that Liara is hurting. Ash is a kind person at heart as you see with not only those actions but also with Nirali's widower and even her Alliance record. 

See, this...I think people are kinda thinking about this the wrong way. They are thinking that if you say a character is xenophobic, you mean they are straight up part of the space KKK.

Well, no, actually, there's a scale. Ashley is xenophobic, but she's far from the most xenophobic person you meet. I mean, it is worth noting that she does take issue with the Terra Firma party, and has issues with Cerberus - though I'd put that more due to her strong Alliance ties and Cerberus is seen as betrayers of the Alliance, not so much that the human supremacy parts of Cerberus bother her.

It's like that person above who said that Ashley isn't xenophobic, she just...doesn't trust aliens. That actually IS xenophobic...it's just far from the most xenophobic thing you could do.

I am curious how you can not trust a race and at the same time not think they are inferior. If you think x race is untrustworthy, or that only y race is, doesn't that inherently mean you think one is inferior and the other superior?

Or am I misunderstanding something here?

[TrulyInnovative]

I hadn't really thought about the implications of the asari maturing more slowly until I read a fanfic that had some asari children in the same school with children from other species. It's kind of hard for an asari getting a crush on a teenage human, for example, when she's going to be reaching adulthood by the time the human is mid-aged.

Modifié par TrulyInnovative, 29 mai 2012 - 07:05 .

[Aristobulus500]

TrulyInnovative wrote...

I hadn't really thought about the implications of the asari maturing more slowly until I read a fanfic that had some asari children in the same school with children from other species. It's kind of hard for an asari getting a crush on a teenage human, for example, when she's going to be reaching adulthood by the time the human is mid-aged.

See, I've heard some people theorize that Asari reach adulthood at the same pace as humans - at least physically. So that Asari teenager would be a teenager for as long as the human, just an Asari is an adult for much, much longer.

The games never introduce us to any young Asari so we really don't get to know if it works like that.

jreezy wrote...
Off topic: Wow I just noticed Liara is smoking in that avatar pic of yours. That looks pretty sweet.

Haha, thank you! I love it, myself. It's actually not the first Liara-smoking avatar I've had. The first one was made for me back when LotSB was new. I actually prefer it because of the look on Liara's face, but I wanted an ME3 version of it to celebrate ME3 coming out.

Here's the LotSB version.

http://i.imgur.com/XuES8.jpg

I just love her expression, how she totally looks like she's feeling it.

I should clarify I didn't make either of these - a goon back on SA made me these.

[MidnightRaith]

TrulyInnovative wrote...

I hadn't really thought about the implications of the asari maturing more slowly until I read a fanfic that had some asari children in the same school with children from other species. It's kind of hard for an asari getting a crush on a teenage human, for example, when she's going to be reaching adulthood by the time the human is mid-aged.

I agree mostly with Han on this. Not many people think about the asari well before we meet them. Like in the times they would have been cave-asari. They have to be able to survive their natural predators, infections and any accidents they come across as a species. If they stayed as children for a significant amount of time, that would mean they would not be able to defend themselves from attack and their immune systems would be weaker than that of an adult. I think their cell regeneration goes static at about their 20s or so. That way if they are similar to humans in the respect of their skulls completely forming at around that age, then they would be finished aging physically and be able to defend themselves.

[Han Shot First]

It's like that person above who said that Ashley isn't xenophobic, she just...doesn't trust aliens. That actually IS xenophobic...it's just far from the most xenophobic thing you could do.

I am curious how you can not trust a race and at the same time not think they are inferior. If you think x race is untrustworthy, or that only y race is, doesn't that inherently mean you think one is inferior and the other superior?

Her lack of trust isn't based on the fact that they're different. It is based on the fact that the humans fought a war recently against the Turians, and she isn't quite sure if the alien factions are truly allies. It is lingering resentment over the First Contact War rather than outright racism.

As a character she is actually far less xenophobic than Wrex, Garrus, and Tali...three characters that never get accused of being racist.

[Generic Screen Name]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

Or am I misunderstanding something here?

Yes you are. All she says is that members of a species will always look out for their own first, so we should be prepared to stand on our own, because the other races will abandon us in a life or death situation. And what happens in ME3? "The sad truth is that while Earth is being attacked it gives us time to secure our borders"

[Aristobulus500]

Han Shot First wrote...
Her lack of trust isn't based on the fact that they're different. It is based on the fact that the humans fought a war recently against the Turians, and she isn't quite sure if the alien factions are truly allies. It is lingering resentment over the First Contact War rather than outright racism.
.

I get that - I mean, I've never accused her of being poorly written. Her motivations and xenophobia actually make sense!

But having a justification for your bias doesn't make it any less, well, of a bias. This is why I say there's a scale of racism, though. I mean, you're even saying yourself she does mistrust aliens. That's racism! It's just not as racist as being a Terra Firma member who spits on any aliens he sees.

Yes you are. All she says is that members of a species will always look out for their own first, so we should be prepared to stand on our own, because the other races will abandon us in a life or death situation. And what happens in ME3? "The sad truth is that while Earth is being attacked it gives us time to secure our borders"

She says that as justification for her belief that humans should not have aliens as allies. That aliens can be racist in return doesn't make that any less of a racist stance on her part.

Modifié par Aristobulus500, 29 mai 2012 - 07:17 .

[TrulyInnovative]

I do think there are two separate issues here: how fast do the asari age physically and how fast do they age mentally? Based on in-game information I would tend to think they at least age more slowly mentally, unless them being adults at the age of 50 or so is purely a cultural thing. And if it's cultural has the age of maturity changed since the asari came into contact with shorter-lived species?

[Aristobulus500]

TrulyInnovative wrote...

I do think there are two separate issues here: how fast do the asari age physically and how fast do they age mentally? Based on in-game information I would tend to think they at least age more slowly mentally, unless them being adults at the age of 50 or so is purely a cultural thing. And if it's cultural has the age of maturity changed since the asari came into contact with shorter-lived species?

This gets really difficult and hard to speculate on, with the games and the codex giving us basically nothing to go off of.

I tend to go with the belief that Asari age about the same as humans, mentally and physically, until somewhere in the 20's. Then they basically freeze physically, and their mental growth slows rapidly as well, but isn't a freeze.

Not sure why exactly I think this. It just seems that way. But the games give us so little info...

[PMC65]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

I am curious how you can not trust a race and at the same time not think they are inferior. If you think x race is untrustworthy, or that only y race is, doesn't that inherently mean you think one is inferior and the other superior?

Or am I misunderstanding something here?

Think of the First Contact War as WWII ... I am sure that during and after that war the Germans were hated. It wasn't about being superior or inferior but about their government trying to dominate the world. Ashley, and I would think many humans, would not trust aliens after how we first met them. *glares at the turians*

To Ash, aliens are the Germans after WWII ... not to be trusted. Take from that what you will.

[MidnightRaith]

TrulyInnovative wrote...

I do think there are two separate issues here: how fast do the asari age physically and how fast do they age mentally? Based on in-game information I would tend to think they at least age more slowly mentally, unless them being adults at the age of 50 or so is purely a cultural thing. And if it's cultural has the age of maturity changed since the asari came into contact with shorter-lived species?

I think there is a definite psychological thing going on with them. They don't have to mature as fast as other species so they really don't. Very similar to when it used to be that 14 year old girls would marry, become the matriarchal head of her household and have children in the past. Since the human lifespan used to be significantly shorter, they had no choice but to mature quickly. I believe the opposite is true here.

I also think that the asari are very protective of their young and won't typically let them in contact with other species or if they live in asari space, not let them out of it. This would allow the children to mature at the rate the asari are accustomed to and not have much influence from shorter lived species.

[TrulyInnovative]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

This gets really difficult and hard to speculate on, with the games and the codex giving us basically nothing to go off of.

You're right about this, of course. When reading a fanfiction, I could buy into a lot of different scenarios, if the writer can justify them well enough.

[Han Shot First]

MidnightRaith wrote...

TrulyInnovative wrote...

I hadn't really thought about the implications of the asari maturing more slowly until I read a fanfic that had some asari children in the same school with children from other species. It's kind of hard for an asari getting a crush on a teenage human, for example, when she's going to be reaching adulthood by the time the human is mid-aged.

I agree mostly with Han on this. Not many people think about the asari well before we meet them. Like in the times they would have been cave-asari. They have to be able to survive their natural predators, infections and any accidents they come across as a species. If they stayed as children for a significant amount of time, that would mean they would not be able to defend themselves from attack and their immune systems would be weaker than that of an adult. I think their cell regeneration goes static at about their 20s or so. That way if they are similar to humans in the respect of their skulls completely forming at around that age, then they would be finished aging physically and be able to defend themselves.

Hopefully if there is ever a ME4 we'll get a codex entry with some more background info on the Asari. But short of that, I think a childhood that is about the same length or only slightly longer than a human's, would be my head canon. I just can't imagine primitive Asari thriving as a species if their children were entirely dependent on the mothers for protection and sustenance for 50 years.

[TrulyInnovative]

MidnightRaith wrote...

I also think that the asari are very protective of their young and won't typically let them in contact with other species or if they live in asari space, not let them out of it. This would allow the children to mature at the rate the asari are accustomed to and not have much influence from shorter lived species.

I'm curious how that would work, though, considering the pureblood stigma. If the asari only grow up near other asari, don't they get attracted to or develop crushes on other asari? How would they later in their life learn to find other species attractive? To be honest, I've never really totally bought into the pureblood stigma, as something about it just seems so ... unlikely. Do most asari living in Thessia travel out of the system to find a mate at some point in their life?

TOP:

Modifié par TrulyInnovative, 29 mai 2012 - 10:46 .

[PMC65]

MidnightRaith wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

I think they age the same as well ... as far as the not moving out until they are much older just think of them as Italian men. They tend to live at home FOREVER. No one loves them like mama! Sorry, I had to go there.

 Well, I suspect that asari are real Mamma's girls. Likely to the extent you paint it out in your fic. Now that I think about it, that thought makes the whole Samara/her kids thing that more tragic. 

My heart broke for Samara and I really felt that she had died inside ... you really see it in ME3 when her daughter hugs her and she appears so cold ... not hugging her back. You know that she was once such a doting mother and now this removed mother. Way too sad.