56469 réponses à ce sujet

[adneate]

As for Liara's invincibilty that wasn't the design choice from the early scripts I read, she was supposed to be on the chopping block in Virmire 2.0 with either the Virmire Survivor or Liara being killed by a trap Kai Leng set. Either you convinced the VS that Kai Leng was a Cerberus agent or you gunned them down, if they fought with you Kai Leng detonated a huge explosive device and Shepard was going to be gravely wounded with the choice of who to crawl towards on a destroyed platform. You'd reach either Liara or the VS depending on your choice while the other would fall to their death before you could reach them.

But like most good things in the early script it was slashed to meet EA's deadline.

[IliyaMoroumetz]

I got your review, Theo. Thanks.

[Han Shot First]

To be fair Miranda did get a lot of the same hate that Liara is getting now after Mass Effect 2 was released. There were plenty of Talimancers and Jackmancers who complained about Miranda being 'forced' and hard to kill on the suicide mission. You also had Ashmancers who thought their character got sidelined in favor of Miranda. In some ways you could say Miranda even got it worse, because while people criticize Liara's content very few criticize her appearance. With Miranda the haters used to say she looked like Michael Jackson.

[Theodoro]

Han Shot First wrote...
To be fair Miranda did get a lot of the same hate that Liara is getting now after Mass Effect 2 was released. There were plenty of Talimancers and Jackmancers who complained about Miranda being 'forced' and hard to kill on the suicide mission. You also had Ashmancers who thought their character got sidelined in favor of Miranda. In some ways you could say Miranda even got it worse, because while people criticize Liara's content very few criticize her appearance. With Miranda the haters used to say she looked like Michael Jackson.

And that is also unfair since Miranda's not to blame for that, just like Liara isn't right now. I fear that the game needs one or two such characters so that it can ensure that the storyline progresses the way it is meant to. The sad thing is that instead people end up hating and trolling on these characters because they just happen to also be romance options.

Modifié par Theodoro, 01 juin 2012 - 06:38 .

[Han Shot First]

Theodoro wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...
To be fair Miranda did get a lot of the same hate that Liara is getting now after Mass Effect 2 was released. There were plenty of Talimancers and Jackmancers who complained about Miranda being 'forced' and hard to kill on the suicide mission. You also had Ashmancers who thought their character got sidelined in favor of Miranda. In some ways you could say Miranda even got it worse, because while people criticize Liara's content very few criticize her appearance. With Miranda the haters used to say she looked like Michael Jackson.

And that is also unfair since Miranda's not to blame for that, just like Liara isn't right now. I fear that the game needs one or two such characters so that it can ensure that the storyline progresses the way it is meant to. The sad thing is that instead people end up hating and trolling on these characters.

In some ways I think Bioware dropped the ball in Mass Effect 2. In the longrun I think they made a mistake by bringing in a completely new squad for that game (with the exception of Garrus & Tali) and included new romance options, all of whom were potential casualties. This created the problem of having to account for all of these variables in Mass Effect 3. It made it impossible that every character could get the same level of detail and attention, resulting in the inevitable disappointment among fans of characters who got the short end of the stick. As a player it is hard for me to say that, since there were characters on the Mass Effect 2 squad that are among my favorites. But if I were to put myself into the shoes of a dev, I think it creates problems.

If they craft trilogies in the future I think it would be better to maintain the same core group of characters into the third game. If you are going to have a suicide mission, have it be in th end run of the final game.

[Fox In The Box]

Han Shot First wrote...

 With Miranda the haters used to say she looked like Michael Jackson.

What, seriously? I thought Miranda was gorgeous. Perhaps not as gorgeous as her face model, but enough to make quite a few of my fem!Sheps pine from afar.

Han Shot First wrote...

In some ways I think Bioware dropped the ball in Mass Effect 2. In the longrun I think they made a mistake by bringing in a completely new squad for that game (with the exception of Garrus & Tali) and included new romance options, all of whom were potential casualties. This created the problem of having to account for all of these variables in Mass Effect 3. It made it impossible that every character could get the same level of detail and
attention, resulting in the inevitable disappointment among fans of characters who got the short end of the stick. As a player it is hard for me to say that, since there were characters on the Mass Effect 2 squad that are among my favorites. But if I were to put myself into the shoes of a dev, I think it creates problems.

If they craft trilogies in the future I think it would be better to maintain the same core group of characters into the third game. If you are going to have a suicide mission, have it be in th end run of the final game.

Exactly that. I was worried about how they'd  be able to deal with so many variables, and the end result went as expected. Shame, really.

Modifié par Fox In The Box, 01 juin 2012 - 06:51 .

[TheDonk95]

Theodoro wrote...

TheDonk95 wrote...

jtav wrote...

Probably. But they really should have picked a non-LI for it. I feel like I spend an entire game having "Are you sure you don't want to romance Liara?" shouted in my ear. Not fun. And I like her!

I can kinda understand what you're saying, but that's not an excuse to say that she is deliberatley forced upon you in Mass Effect 3. It is obvious that she is the developer's favorite character, or atleast one of the most favorite, but no one is forcing you to romance her or even to like her. Everytime there is a dialogue between you and her, you can just pick Renegade and be mean to her, and you can just never visit her at her cabin, not even after Thessia. But I kinda understand what your'e saying that someone is shouting in your ear to romance her. I can't really explain it, but I understand what you're saying.

No, that's actually what I don't understand. Other characters, like Ashley and Kaidan in Mass Effect 1, and Jacob and Miranda in Mass Effect 2 also get the same amount of attention Liara gets in Mass Effect 3 as people who help Shepard along the way since they're essential to the plot. Yet how come I don't hear anyone saying 'Are you sure you don't want to romance Miranda?' in Mass Effect 2 the same way some people do, given how much of screen time she has and her important role in the game?

What I don't understand is how the presence of a character means that BioWare is trying to get you to romance that character? Should everybody just distance themselves from Shepard, never say a word to him/her throughout the entire game so that the player doesn't feel like he/she's being forced into a romance with them?

IliyaMoroumetz wrote...

Semi-Liara related;

I just finished and posted a new story, entitled The Richest of them All

In it, we have Liara's father and half-hanar sister that I created myself using a few liberties.   Enjoy!

Thanks for sharing this, I loved it! I posted a review there.

Well you are right abouut Miranda being very focused upon in Mass Effect 2, but there is no feel of attachment to her, so that you want to romance her, like there is in Mass Effect 3 with Liara, probably because Miranda is a new character in ME2.
But you are also right that people are very annoying and they just dont think outside their own bubble when they say that Liara is just being forced down your throat in ME3. She is crucial to the plot, she was always there for Shepard, and she is a good friend. You can't ignore that. But you can be a complete **hole to here and just always ignore her through the entire serie, then you'll probably less be aware of her existance but I dont see why anyone won't want her to atleast be your friend. She is just so amazing.

[adneate]

The problem was that instead of making a sequel to Mass Effect they made Mass Effect 2 a pointless sidestory that set nothing up and payed nothing off and has no point whatsoever to the actual conflict in the franchise. From a story telling perspective Mass Effect 2 is one of the worst sequels ever made having almost nothing to do with the first game and being more a reboot than a sequel. Apart from The Arrival DLC Mass Effect 2 is utterly inconsequential to the story, the collectors weren't a threat to anybody and Cerberus was a uneeded and unwanted addition that totally destroyed the veneer of hard sci-fi the IP was supposed to be based on.

As bad as ME3's endings might be ME2 is my most hated game in the franchise for being an utter waste of time.

[moreeman06]

PMC65 wrote...
*snip*

Life is too short for hatred or feeding someone else's hatred.

Exception: I do approve of posting hate threads on Karmen and Moreeman.

right back at you PMC:P,  BTW I'm still waiting for Karmen's long awaited reappearance in the thread

[Theodoro]

Han Shot First wrote...
In some ways I think Bioware dropped the ball in Mass Effect 2. In the longrun I think they made a mistake by bringing in a completely new squad for that game (with the exception of Garrus & Tali) and included new romance options, all of whom were potential casualties. This created the problem of having to account for all of these variables in Mass Effect 3. It made it impossible that every character could get the same level of detail and attention, resulting in the inevitable disappointment among fans of characters who got the short end of the stick. As a player it is hard for me to say that, since there were characters on the Mass Effect 2 squad that are among my favorites. But if I were to put myself into the shoes of a dev, I think it creates problems.

If they craft trilogies in the future I think it would be better to maintain the same core group of characters into the third game. If you are going to have a suicide mission, have it be in th end run of the final game.

I agree with you there - but it should not count as ME2's fault but rather ME3's failure of delivering the acknowledgement of previous choices and outcomes. They took a big risk with ME2's Suicide Mission, not to mention that you had twelve squad members to account for - every single one of which that could die. And yes, Priority: Earth is so anti-climatic and unsatisfying when put next to the incredible Suicide Mission and there should have been something similar for the end of ME3 - at a much, much larger scale.

What I think it boils down to is that they simply didn't have time. They had so many variables to account for and also so much new content and new choices to make for the player that they had to rush this thing out. If they had worked for Mass Effect 3 for at least a year more, BioWare could have made something spectacular, and their risk with ME2 would have paid off immeasurably.

[Han Shot First]

I agree with you there - but it should not count as ME2's fault but rather ME3's failure of delivering the acknowledgement of previous choices and outcomes. They took a big risk with ME2's Suicide Mission, not to mention that you had twelve squad members to account for - every single one of which that could die. And yes, Priority: Earth is so anti-climatic and unsatisfying when put next to the incredible Suicide Mission and there should have been something similar for the end of ME3 - at a much, much larger scale.

With the benefit of hindsight I think they should have brought the entire ME1 squad back for ME2 and just introduced two new characters, and had it possible in the end run only to lose one or two of them. There would have been a lot less variables to account for in ME3 and they could have devoted more time to all the squadmates in that game.

Fox In The Box wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

 With Miranda the haters used to say she looked like Michael Jackson.

What, seriously? I thought Miranda was gorgeous. Perhaps not as gorgeous as her face model, but enough to make quite a few of my fem!Sheps pine from afar.

You and me both, though my Shep romanced her in ME2.

*ducks for cover*

Modifié par Han Shot First, 01 juin 2012 - 06:58 .

[TheDonk95]

Han Shot First wrote...

Fox In The Box wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

 With Miranda the haters used to say she looked like Michael Jackson.

What, seriously? I thought Miranda was gorgeous. Perhaps not as gorgeous as her face model, but enough to make quite a few of my fem!Sheps pine from afar.

You and me both, though my Shep romanced her in ME2.

*ducks for cover*

*taking my shotgun and searching for that guy who covered*

[Theodoro]

adneate wrote...

The problem was that instead of making a sequel to Mass Effect they made Mass Effect 2 a pointless sidestory that set nothing up and payed nothing off and has no point whatsoever to the actual conflict in the franchise. From a story telling perspective Mass Effect 2 is one of the worst sequels ever made having almost nothing to do with the first game and being more a reboot than a sequel. Apart from The Arrival DLC Mass Effect 2 is utterly inconsequential to the story, the collectors weren't a threat to anybody and Cerberus was a uneeded and unwanted addition that totally destroyed the veneer of hard sci-fi the IP was supposed to be based on.

As bad as ME3's endings might be ME2 is my most hated game in the franchise for being an utter waste of time.

I disagree completely. Mass Effect 2 is not to be at fault for the fact that ME3 could not further expand on its plot or acknowledge its importance. They had something great going with the Collectors being the ones that abduct humans for the Reapers and Cerberus being an essential part of the story as the only ones that did something about it, but at the end, with ME3, they chose to abandon the concept and the plans that they had for the franchise and replaced it with content that makes ME2's plot inconsequential.

Han Shot First wrote...

Fox In The Box wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

 With Miranda the haters used to say she looked like Michael Jackson.

What, seriously? I thought Miranda was gorgeous. Perhaps not as gorgeous as her face model, but enough to make quite a few of my fem!Sheps pine from afar.

You and me both, though my Shep romanced her in ME2.

*ducks for cover*

Cover won't save you from my M-920 Cain! 

Modifié par Theodoro, 01 juin 2012 - 06:59 .

[Tyranniac]

adneate wrote...

The problem was that instead of making a sequel to Mass Effect they made Mass Effect 2 a pointless sidestory that set nothing up and payed nothing off and has no point whatsoever to the actual conflict in the franchise. From a story telling perspective Mass Effect 2 is one of the worst sequels ever made having almost nothing to do with the first game and being more a reboot than a sequel. Apart from The Arrival DLC Mass Effect 2 is utterly inconsequential to the story, the collectors weren't a threat to anybody and Cerberus was a uneeded and unwanted addition that totally destroyed the veneer of hard sci-fi the IP was supposed to be based on.

As bad as ME3's endings might be ME2 is my most hated game in the franchise for being an utter waste of time.

I disagree. While it didn't add much to the overall story it did expand greatly on the universe and introduced many new characters, locations and events. I think ME2 is great.

[TheDonk95]

Tyranniac wrote...

adneate wrote...

The problem was that instead of making a sequel to Mass Effect they made Mass Effect 2 a pointless sidestory that set nothing up and payed nothing off and has no point whatsoever to the actual conflict in the franchise. From a story telling perspective Mass Effect 2 is one of the worst sequels ever made having almost nothing to do with the first game and being more a reboot than a sequel. Apart from The Arrival DLC Mass Effect 2 is utterly inconsequential to the story, the collectors weren't a threat to anybody and Cerberus was a uneeded and unwanted addition that totally destroyed the veneer of hard sci-fi the IP was supposed to be based on.

As bad as ME3's endings might be ME2 is my most hated game in the franchise for being an utter waste of time.

I disagree. While it didn't add much to the overall story it did expand greatly on the universe and introduced many new characters, locations and events. I think ME2 is great.

That's what I love about I love about ME2.
And I agree with what you and Theodo said, Mass Effect 2 was a bit "off plot" with the whole Collectors threat, but the Collectors are directly connected to the Reapers, and if you wouldn't have destroyed the Human Reaper at the end of ME2, that would have made things a lot harder in ME3. So yeah, it wasn't directly related to the Reapers, but they were still behind all the trouble that was caused in ME2.

Modifié par TheDonk95, 01 juin 2012 - 07:04 .

[Han Shot First]

Not to change the subject, but does anyone know what the criteria is for getting Liara to drop the L-bomb first at the end of Mass Effect 3? I've seen it posted many times that in order to get that scene, you must have maintained an active romance with Liara through all three games and not have romanced anyone else in Mass Effect 2.

I think that may not be entirely correct however. My canon Shep romanced Liara in ME1, Miranda in ME2, Liara in LotSB (played after the suicide mission) and Liara again in ME3. I got the same scene as people who didn't romance one of the other LIs in ME2.

I wonder if the order in which you play LotSB is taken into account. My Shep also broke it off with Miranda during the first reunion with her in ME3.

[Theodoro]

Han Shot First wrote...

Not to change the subject, but does anyone know what the criteria is for getting Liara to drop the L-bomb first at the end of Mass Effect 3? I've seen it posted many times that in order to get that scene, you must have maintained an active romance with Liara through all three games and not have romanced anyone else in Mass Effect 2.

I think that may not be entirely correct however. My canon Shep romanced Liara in ME1, Miranda in ME2, Liara in LotSB (played after the suicide mission) and Liara again in ME3. I got the same scene as people who didn't romance one of the other LIs in ME2.

I wonder if the order in which you play LotSB is taken into account. My Shep also broke it off with Miranda during the first reunion with her in ME3.

Maybe the game failed to acknowledge the fact that you had cheated on Liara. Did she comment on your relationship with Miranda in ME3 when you talk with her on board the Normandy for the first time (or at any other point in ME3 for that matter)?

Modifié par Theodoro, 01 juin 2012 - 07:16 .

[Fox In The Box]

frudi wrote...

I always got that uncanny valley feeling with Miranda, it just seemed to me that they messed something up when
digitising Yvonne's face and animations. I'm also not a fan of how blatantly Bioware sexualised her character with that ridiculous outfit and camera angles. It just seemed like fanservice to teenage players. She honestly deserved better.
But again, these are problems I have with Bioware, I find it just absurd that people choose to hate the character instead.

I don't know. I'm not a fan of sexualization for sexualization's sake (*cough* EDI), but for Miranda, it seemed to fit. She defines herself by her genetic modifications, going as far as implying that they are the only things that makes her great - so that's what she wants other people to see, even though she doesn't feel as if she's earned any of it. Her outfit looks uncomfortably tight though. Doesn't it restrict movements and get all sweaty and curl up awkwardly in places?

Modifié par Fox In The Box, 01 juin 2012 - 07:29 .

[PMC65]

Han Shot First - My second Shepard romanced Miranda as well. I had planned on him returning to Ash (who he loves) but I hear that if you leave Miranda she dies. If that is true ... wow! I'm almost glad that I've not been able to replay ME3 so PV Shepard has never had to make the choice.

[Han Shot First]

Theodoro wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Not to change the subject, but does anyone know what the criteria is for getting Liara to drop the L-bomb first at the end of Mass Effect 3? I've seen it posted many times that in order to get that scene, you must have maintained an active romance with Liara through all three games and not have romanced anyone else in Mass Effect 2.

I think that may not be entirely correct however. My canon Shep romanced Liara in ME1, Miranda in ME2, Liara in LotSB (played after the suicide mission) and Liara again in ME3. I got the same scene as people who didn't romance one of the other LIs in ME2.

I wonder if the order in which you play LotSB is taken into account. My Shep also broke it off with Miranda during the first reunion with her in ME3.

Maybe the game failed to acknowledge the fact that you had cheated on Liara. Did she comment on your relationship with Miranda in ME3 when you talk with her on board the Normandy for the first time (or at any other point in ME3 for that matter)?

To be honest I can't recall now whether Liara commented on Miranda or not. I'm playing through Mass Effect 2 again and will make the same choices, so I'll see how it all plays out the second time around.

I do remember that the Miranda romance carried over however, as Miranda asked Shepard if he still was interested in being with her (or something similar) in their first conversation. When Miranda was killed by Kai Leng one of the other characters said something about it how it must have been tough for Shepard, since they had been close.

Han Shot First - My second Shepard romanced Miranda as well. I had planned on him returning to Ash (who he loves) but I hear that if you leave Miranda she dies. If that is true ... wow! I'm almost glad that I've not been able to replay ME3 so PV Shepard has never had to make the choice.

She does! Kai Leng ends up killing her.

That scene was a bit of a punch in the gut, but so satisfying when Shepard said, "That was for Thane and Miranda you son-of-a-****" while finishing the bastard off.

Thane and Miranda had been my end game squad too. They were with Shepard when he took down the Human Reaper.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 01 juin 2012 - 07:29 .

[adneate]

Theodoro wrote...
Mass Effect 2 is not to be at fault for the fact that ME3 could not further expand on its plot or acknowledge its importance.

Arrival invalidated ME2, ME3 didn't. Arrival directly undercuts the entire plot of ME2, the Reapers were literally days away from coming through the Alpha Relay and tearing through the back door of Citadel space. The Collectors and their half finished derp Reaper can't compete with the imminent invasion by all Reapers. Nobody could make ME2 as is relevant to ME3, without drastically rewriting the entire point of ME2 to be less about the derp Reaper and more about the Alpha Relay and the Reapers.

At the end of ME1 Shepard vows to find a way to stop the Reapers, instead of doing that Shepard screws around with Cerberus for awhile not finding a way to stop the Reapers. ME3's problems have more to do with the writers completely wasting their time with a pointless throw away story rather than properly building up to something. They had to both find a way to defeat the Reapers then build it and use it during the Reaper war all in one game instead of finding the thing in the middle part of the trilogy.

Would have been a lot more simple than killing the protagonist at the start of the game, inventing an evil bond villan and his evil organization to bring a dead person back to life 2 minutes after you killed them. Then sending them on a wild goose chase while trying to explain how humans are genetically special with a theory a highschool biology student would laugh at you with. All ending with a suicide mission where you have twice as many people as needed and most of them end up having no role at all other than to just be there.

With a foundation that unsound I don't see how you couldn't write ME3 the way they did with the Crucible and the war nobody is ready for. Didn't think the ending would be that bad but I knew ME3 had to resolve the entire Reaper conflict and the means to ending that conflict within it's own narrative because ME2 sure as hell didn't add a single building block to that goal.

[PMC65]

Han Shot First - Wow! I think I would cry seeing her die ... Thane and Mordin were bad enough.

Moreeman - Poor Karmen! I don't think we will ever see poor man girl again.

TOP:

Just for my buddy Moreeman!



comfort-adam.livejournal.com

Modifié par PMC65, 01 juin 2012 - 07:36 .

[Han Shot First]

Arrival invalidated ME2, ME3 didn't. Arrival directly undercuts the entire plot of ME2, the Reapers were literally days away from coming through the Alpha Relay and tearing through the back door of Citadel space. The Collectors and their half finished derp Reaper can't compete with the imminent invasion by all Reapers. Nobody could make ME2 as is relevant to ME3, without drastically rewriting the entire point of ME2 to be less about the derp Reaper and more about the Alpha Relay and the Reapers.

ME3 is just as bad however in that the Reapers respond to the failures of Sovereign, the Human Reaper plot, and the Alpha Relay Plot, by simply pushing the pedal to the metal and flying at normal FTL speeds to the Milky Way. If the Reapers could simply fly into the Milky Way within a few months span, it makes no sense why they didn't do just that when the Keepers failed to respond to their signal.