56469 réponses à ce sujet

[Aristobulus500]

Liara has gotten darker, but not nearly to the extent renegade players are trying to say, and not enough to justify being with a sociopath. Moreover, the darker things she has to do - she doesn't enjoy it, it bothers her that she's had to do these things, which again speaks to me that she would be horrified and traumatized by even having to work with a Renegade Shepard, because she's traumatized in some forms by the darker things she's been put through as is.

And while many of the Renegade interrupts, especially in ME2, are just badass action hero moments, the Renegade dialogue options are almost always unquestionably evil and straight up villainous, removing any real measure by which you could define Shepard as a hero.

To say that Liara can love such a character is to say that she can love a villain, or is too stupid and blind herself to see that in Shepard, somehow. I have more respect for her than that. She doesn't seem that incompetent to me.

To be fair, this is a flaw in Bioware's writing. They should not have written Renegade to be so evil - it should've been a Han Solo to Paragon's Captain Picard. And in the interrupts, lots of times, they succeeded! It's just in the dialogue options, where Renegade Shepard becomes a racist sociopathic villain that, with no exaggeration, delights in the suffering and pain of others, especially aliens. This really needed to be reigned in a bit, so that Renegade options retained more of the badass action hero of the interrupts.

Most people do not like being sociopathic towards characters they are invested in and care about, and it shows that Renegade does come across like this, because look at the poll results - a vast majority of people played Paragon, yet I would wager even most Paragon players took the interrupts - even Renegade -, they simply define themselves as Paragon because they choose the Paragon dialogue choices. There's simply something wrong with the Renegade dialogue choices that most people do not want to choose them, it does something really unfitting to Shepard's character considering his position.

As far as that poll...the results are somewhat shocking, mostly in how one sided it is - the vast majority of people played paragon. The vast majority want some form of happy ending.

The most surprising result, to me, is that Liara is by far the most popular LI, and Liara/Garrus was the most popular squad choice.

I always thought that Tali/Garrus were the most popular, and Liara would've been anywhere from 3rd to 5th based on the placement of Kaidan/Ashley. I think this shows that while Liara gets a ton of hate on the message boards, it's really just a very vocal minority hating her.

What I'd really like to have seen though, is a similar LI poll from the different games. I think we'd find that the love for Liara has grown significantly with each game - and the largest boost in her popularity very likely came after Lair of the Shadow Broker. I think you'd find that in ME2, she wouldn't at all be one of the most romanced, especially if you count people staying faithful to her, and doing it before LotSB - once LotSB came out I think you'd find a lot more people switched over to Liara romance. But I wonder how many Liara romances were truly faithful, and how many cheated on her for an ME2 one, even if they did switch to her once LotSB came out...

As for ME3...Liara DOES seem to be a choice you're..."encouraged" to make, since she has so much screen time, and you won't see the flaws with her romance unless you actually romance her, but I don't think this really had that much of an effect, since I can't imagine someone disliking Liara even after LotSB and everything, going into ME3, but then changing their minds simply because the game "seems" to encourage her, and romancing Liara. I would think most people stuck with whatever romance they had already built up, and just retained that throughout ME3 - it's just telling that this probably means most people were simply maintaining a Liara romance throughout ME3 that they had carried through at least ME2.

Basically, Liara being "encouraged" as a choice would really only have an effect on people starting with ME3, yet we can see that a vast majority were importing, so that is basically insignificant. Most people would've had a prior LI, and I think most people would choose the same LI in ME3.

These results do at least offer concrete data to show to all the Liara haters out there, they are not as numerous as they think.

[Akernis]

doozer12 wrote...
She even mentions the one thing she wanted most (wasn't to have shepard alive) but was the war to end while theres a galaxy left to save

It wouldn't make sense that what she waned most was to have Shepard alive since that is already a reality. I think she means "What I want most (which I do not have) is for this war to end..."

Modifié par Akernis, 11 juin 2012 - 03:28 .

[TheDonk95]

^Can't agree more with you, man. Spot on.
(Aristo)

Modifié par TheDonk95, 11 juin 2012 - 03:15 .

[rubynorman]

@Aristobulus500 I agree with most things you said.
I know Liara is the most popular LI without looking into the results. Haters are just jealous people. I pity them because they have these unhealthy emotions. I understand that their LIs got less time scene but that's not a reason to hate other characters. I wish they had an open mind to understand Liara. It's their loss anyway I just hope that they keep these unhealthy emotions to themselves and stop bothering us.

[lillitheris]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

… it's really just a very vocal minority hating her.

Hm, I broke out in hives. I might be allergic to something you said!

[Dragon_Claw]

Fall of Thessia by Mallyxable.

[Aristobulus500]

Argh, I don't really know what it is, but something about Mally'x recent animated gifs just looks off to me. Sortof uncanney valley-ish. Kinda creepy. I think it's, at least for this one, how so much of the image is still, yet there's still some motion - just makes it look...mechanical? Robotic? Which would tie into the whole uncanny valley thing.

It's hard to say what would really need to be done specifically to improve it and not make that impression, just that it is making that impression.

[Jebel Krong]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

Liara has gotten darker, but not nearly to the extent renegade players are trying to say, and not enough to justify being with a sociopath. Moreover, the darker things she has to do - she doesn't enjoy it, it bothers her that she's had to do these things, which again speaks to me that she would be horrified and traumatized by even having to work with a Renegade Shepard, because she's traumatized in some forms by the darker things she's been put through as is.

i agree with the first part but the second: what?! first off, the "darker" things are necessary things - shepard is not a villain, and liara herself would have to do equally dark things as the SB. So being "traumatised" just by having to work with a renegade shepard is ridiculous.

Aristobulus500 wrote... 

And while many of the Renegade interrupts, especially in ME2, are just badass action hero moments, the Renegade dialogue options are almost always unquestionably evil and straight up villainous, removing any real measure by which you could define Shepard as a hero.

Play a renegade: no they aren't. some are badass, some sarcastic and some make you look stupid, unfortunately. none  really even border xenophobic (i don't really know where people get that renegade shepard is racist?). However, just with paragon, you can pick and choose which options you want to take, and when, so you can RP just a badass renegade, with a bit of practice. Shepard is a semi-predefined caacter, so none of the options in-game let you be villainous - shepard is a hero, the first human spectre, the saviour of the galaxy, no matter what.

Aristobulus500 wrote... 

To say that Liara can love such a character is to say that she can love a villain, or is too stupid and blind herself to see that in Shepard, somehow. I have more respect for her than that. She doesn't seem that incompetent to me.

To be fair, this is a flaw in Bioware's writing. They should not have written Renegade to be so evil - it should've been a Han Solo to Paragon's Captain Picard. And in the interrupts, lots of times, they succeeded! It's just in the dialogue options, where Renegade Shepard becomes a racist sociopathic villain that, with no exaggeration, delights in the suffering and pain of others, especially aliens. This really needed to be reigned in a bit, so that Renegade options retained more of the badass action hero of the interrupts.

Most people do not like being sociopathic towards characters they are invested in and care about, and it shows that Renegade does come across like this, because look at the poll results - a vast majority of people played Paragon, yet I would wager even most Paragon players took the interrupts - even Renegade -, they simply define themselves as Paragon because they choose the Paragon dialogue choices. There's simply something wrong with the Renegade dialogue choices that most people do not want to choose them, it does something really unfitting to Shepard's character considering his position.

again, the options aren't sociopathic: vasir managed to border more on that, shepard is constrained far more than that. hell there were times i wished i could have been more ruthless, and times i wish i could have been less, you can only work with the choices you are given. anything else is you reading into things what aren't actually there.

As for Liara, she can love a renegade or paragon shepard equally - the game doesn't distinguish between the two in terms of romance options. the fact that Liara isn't entirely paragon by ME2- certainly fits a more renegade shepard just as much, if not better than a mary-sue paragon.

Aristobulus500 wrote... 

As far as that poll...the results are somewhat shocking, mostly in how one sided it is - the vast majority of people played paragon. The vast majority want some form of happy ending.

most people play the simplest choice: male, soldier, paragon. if you wre talking me1, i'd guess that ashley was the most popular choice purely because you met her first.

Aristobulus500 wrote... 

The most surprising result, to me, is that Liara is by far the most popular LI, and Liara/Garrus was the most popular squad choice.

I always thought that Tali/Garrus were the most popular, and Liara would've been anywhere from 3rd to 5th based on the placement of Kaidan/Ashley. I think this shows that while Liara gets a ton of hate on the message boards, it's really just a very vocal minority hating her.

tali is only popular amongst a certain segment, garrus has the later romance option, but he was also your "chewie" from the get-go, or at least designed to be. his popularity is unsurprising.

Aristobulus500 wrote... 

What I'd really like to have seen though, is a similar LI poll from the different games. I think we'd find that the love for Liara has grown significantly with each game - and the largest boost in her popularity very likely came after Lair of the Shadow Broker. I think you'd find that in ME2, she wouldn't at all be one of the most romanced, especially if you count people staying faithful to her, and doing it before LotSB - once LotSB came out I think you'd find a lot more people switched over to Liara romance. But I wonder how many Liara romances were truly faithful, and how many cheated on her for an ME2 one, even if they did switch to her once LotSB came out...

LoSB was a great dlc - certainly the best so far, probably for any game, and that, coupled with Liara's character development (maturing, showing a dark side) made her a lot more interesting: conflict creates drama, after all. This would have attracted a lot of players that didn't like the virginal, bookish innocent with the shepard-is-a-god complex, from me1. Notably the arc carried on nicely into me3: BW certainly didn't back-pedal anything.

As for the question of being "faithful" - you are actually encouraged to have different romances throughout all 3 games - certainly liara was not pushed in me2 even with LoSB. there is no bonus for being "truly faithful" as you put it.

Aristobulus500 wrote... 

As for ME3...Liara DOES seem to be a choice you're..."encouraged" to make, since she has so much screen time, and you won't see the flaws with her romance unless you actually romance her, but I don't think this really had that much of an effect, since I can't imagine someone disliking Liara even after LotSB and everything, going into ME3, but then changing their minds simply because the game "seems" to encourage her, and romancing Liara. I would think most people stuck with whatever romance they had already built up, and just retained that throughout ME3 - it's just telling that this probably means most people were simply maintaining a Liara romance throughout ME3 that they had carried through at least ME2.

Basically, Liara being "encouraged" as a choice would really only have an effect on people starting with ME3, yet we can see that a vast majority were importing, so that is basically insignificant. Most people would've had a prior LI, and I think most people would choose the same LI in ME3.

These results do at least offer concrete data to show to all the Liara haters out there, they are not as numerous as they think.

i think the romance is one of the most natural in ME3, helped by her early introduction, but from what i've seen they all have their moments. Certainly mac walters seems to like the character, however given the comics that's almost as much detriment as a positive.

[fluffywalrus]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

Argh, I don't really know what it is, but something about Mally'x recent animated gifs just looks off to me. Sortof uncanney valley-ish. Kinda creepy. I think it's, at least for this one, how so much of the image is still, yet there's still some motion - just makes it look...mechanical? Robotic? Which would tie into the whole uncanny valley thing.

It's hard to say what would really need to be done specifically to improve it and not make that impression, just that it is making that impression.

You hit the nail on the head. It really is because of how still the image is, how still Shep and Liara are. In that context, it's hard for simple animation to not seem mechanical, artificial.

I don't blame Mallyx too much, because it's a lot of work to make it real looking(or more real looking), but that's animation. I've rigged and animated before. It's hard to plan out all the subtle movements, but it's immensely worth it when you're staring at the finished product.

This gif is just...I like the idea, but it isn't executed. It's cold. All the animations execute at basically the same time and it's a very visible loop. Would have been better to stagger some of the animations around, building around perhaps 4 cycles of one particular animation as a foundation, and trying to make it more organic.

Modifié par fluffywalrus, 11 juin 2012 - 06:22 .

[DOsquareZER]

fluffywalrus wrote...

Aristobulus500 wrote...

Argh, I don't really know what it is, but something about Mally'x recent animated gifs just looks off to me. Sortof uncanney valley-ish. Kinda creepy. I think it's, at least for this one, how so much of the image is still, yet there's still some motion - just makes it look...mechanical? Robotic? Which would tie into the whole uncanny valley thing.

It's hard to say what would really need to be done specifically to improve it and not make that impression, just that it is making that impression.

You hit the nail on the head. It really is because of how still the image is, how still Shep and Liara are. In that context, it's hard for simple animation to not seem mechanical, artificial.

I don't blame Mallyx too much, because it's a lot of work to make it real looking(or more real looking), but that's animation. I've rigged and animated before. It's hard to plan out all the subtle movements, but it's immensely worth it when you're staring at the finished product.

This gif is just...I like the idea, but it isn't executed. It's cold. All the animations execute at basically the same time and it's a very visible loop. Would have been better to stagger some of the animations around, building around perhaps 4 cycles of one particular animation as a foundation, and trying to make it more organic.

Its like watching the mona lisa blink back at you from the portrait.  Creepy lol.  But A for effort, mally.
 

lillitheris wrote...
Here’s a peace offering: the slightly renegade Beth ‘Gibs’ Shepard performing a song for Liara.

Eh that ones...ok, depending on my mood. But i prefer (theres alot i like from her, but if I have to narrow it down..) - undenied, roads, machine gun (same artist) for setting the tone(s) when exploring/writing for my renegade.

Modifié par doozer12, 11 juin 2012 - 06:42 .

[moreeman06]

doozer12 wrote...

fluffywalrus wrote...

Aristobulus500 wrote...

Argh, I don't really know what it is, but something about Mally'x recent animated gifs just looks off to me. Sortof uncanney valley-ish. Kinda creepy. I think it's, at least for this one, how so much of the image is still, yet there's still some motion - just makes it look...mechanical? Robotic? Which would tie into the whole uncanny valley thing.

It's hard to say what would really need to be done specifically to improve it and not make that impression, just that it is making that impression.

You hit the nail on the head. It really is because of how still the image is, how still Shep and Liara are. In that context, it's hard for simple animation to not seem mechanical, artificial.

I don't blame Mallyx too much, because it's a lot of work to make it real looking(or more real looking), but that's animation. I've rigged and animated before. It's hard to plan out all the subtle movements, but it's immensely worth it when you're staring at the finished product.

This gif is just...I like the idea, but it isn't executed. It's cold. All the animations execute at basically the same time and it's a very visible loop. Would have been better to stagger some of the animations around, building around perhaps 4 cycles of one particular animation as a foundation, and trying to make it more organic.

Its like watching the mona lisa blink back at you from the portrait.  Creepy lol.  But A for effort, mally.

same here great attempt its not like BW tried to even give us that.  but the execution was off.

As for the para/rene thing,  I don't have any real hate against renegade's and my shep normally comes across around a 70-30 para/rene split.  I can happpily say that Tiberius is a well done mix of Picard and Solo, so that may make him Indiana Jones with a phaser (smart professor type and kick-ass hero rolled into one)

[lillitheris]

doozer12 wrote...

 

lillitheris wrote...
Here’s a peace offering: the slightly renegade Beth ‘Gibs’ Shepard performing a song for Liara.

Eh that ones...ok, depending on my mood. But i prefer (theres alot i like from her, but if I have to narrow it down..) - undenied, roads, machine gun (same artist) for setting the tone(s) when exploring/writing for my renegade.

I already claimed “Roads” for the paragades!

[DOsquareZER]

lillitheris wrote...

doozer12 wrote...

 

lillitheris wrote...
Here’s a peace offering: the slightly renegade Beth ‘Gibs’ Shepard performing a song for Liara.

Eh that ones...ok, depending on my mood. But i prefer (theres alot i like from her, but if I have to narrow it down..) - undenied, roads, machine gun (same artist) for setting the tone(s) when exploring/writing for my renegade.

I already claimed “Roads” for the paragades!

Oh Fine ... substitute roads wiiiiiiith  Wandering Star.

Modifié par doozer12, 11 juin 2012 - 07:12 .

[Arcataye]

"Acrylic paint on canvas, this piece is about 1m x 75 cm."






His femhep is impressive too.

Modifié par Arcataye, 11 juin 2012 - 07:16 .

[Jebel Krong]

TheDonk95 wrote...

@Lizardviking I have to disagree with your opinion, I don't think Liara can love or have any bond or relationship with a man that killed innocent Asari (like Shiala or Samara). I also have to disagree with you when you said that she has gotten alot more darker. This isn't what happened. I know that you don't mean that she suddenly turned evil and that she's now like Saren or something and that she just got darker, but even that isn't the case. Liara has got more mature, that is right, but she hasn't turned dark. I agree that she is alot less innocent and paragon than she was in ME1, but she is still the 'merciful' and sweet Liara from ME1. She didn't turn into a dark, ruthless Liara.

neither shiala nor samara are "innocent" - the former admitted joining saren via benezia willingly and the consequences/actions thereafter; the latter lives by a quirky code, the closest analogue being samurai here on earth and comitted hihhly questionable actions including fighting a spectre. i killed neither and flirted with the former btw.

[Aristobulus500]

Arcataye wrote...

"Acrylic paint on canvas, this piece is about 1m x 75 cm."

Wow, this one - the artist here is very talented. Not much to say about the picture itself, but it's very well done, especially for the detail on Liara's face and all.

[lillitheris]

Jebel Krong wrote...

neither shiala nor samara are "innocent" - the former admitted joining saren via benezia willingly and the consequences/actions thereafter.

…Thereafter when they got indoctrinated and their mission of trying to steer Saren away from his path of destruction failed.

You’re not making a very good argument on that particular count.

[Jebel Krong]

lillitheris wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

neither shiala nor samara are "innocent" - the former admitted joining saren via benezia willingly and the consequences/actions thereafter.

…Thereafter when they got indoctrinated and their mission of trying to steer Saren away from his path of destruction failed.

You’re not making a very good argument on that particular count.

benezia's mission. shiala was merely a complicit sheep. is she less guilty of any atrocities therafter, or more? either way neither could be considered innocent and a sheoard that chose to carry out summary justice for expediency would be well within their rights. as for samara she flat out tells you she'd try and kill you if you contravened her code. her. code.

[lillitheris]

…Okaydoke. We’ve apparently been playing entirely different games. No wonder our perceptions are so different.

[Arcataye]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

Arcataye wrote...

"Acrylic paint on canvas, this piece is about 1m x 75 cm."

Wow, this one - the artist here is very talented. Not much to say about the picture itself, but it's very well done, especially for the detail on Liara's face and all.

Also it's a photo of the painting, likely to compress some of the details.

And the size of the painting, damn, I'd pay him for LotSB look of Liara on my wall if it wouldn't cost too much.
Has anyone actually seen any Liara art to buy? I don't mean stuff like the Redemption poster.

Modifié par Arcataye, 11 juin 2012 - 07:44 .

[DOsquareZER]

Jebel Krong wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

neither shiala nor samara are "innocent" - the former admitted joining saren via benezia willingly and the consequences/actions thereafter.

…Thereafter when they got indoctrinated and their mission of trying to steer Saren away from his path of destruction failed.

You’re not making a very good argument on that particular count.

benezia's mission. shiala was merely a complicit sheep. is she less guilty of any atrocities therafter, or more? either way neither could be considered innocent and a sheoard that chose to carry out summary justice for expediency would be well within their rights. as for samara she flat out tells you she'd try and kill you if you contravened her code. her. code.

Shep knows indoctrination cannot be cured if you fought benezia prior to shiala - therefore Shiala dies (same goes for that asari scientist on virmire and the salarians), if not its simple: Shiala cannot be trusted - agent of Saren with a conveniant change of heart at the last second - how stupid does shepard look..(pretty stupid, ME1 graphics le sigh lol).  Too many variables, too much risk in leaving her alive to bite me in the ass later, with no real payoff or future use to the mission in the long run (i just really dont like how she gets on her knees and turns around before you shoot her).  As said, Samara threatened to kill shep (like wrex!) - self preservation kicks in, she will become detrimental to the mission (believe it or not, my shepard likes living, she needs to be alive to defeat the reapers) - but when I meet her in that sanctuary she convieniantly forgets all that....ok, still suspicious, but will aid because the game makes me.
I didn't let her kill herself because she and her order are better kept alive for their fighting prowess against the reapers if Samara is willing to overlook killing Shep for her previous renegade choices (kinda curious to get a look at this list of codes)... killing her daughter might jeopordize that shallow but neeccesary relationship, be pointless to shoot her.  

Modifié par doozer12, 11 juin 2012 - 07:48 .

[Aristobulus500]

In short - pure, calculated, evil sociopathy. Thanks~.

[moreeman06]

doozer12 wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

neither shiala nor samara are "innocent" - the former admitted joining saren via benezia willingly and the consequences/actions thereafter.

…Thereafter when they got indoctrinated and their mission of trying to steer Saren away from his path of destruction failed.

You’re not making a very good argument on that particular count.

benezia's mission. shiala was merely a complicit sheep. is she less guilty of any atrocities therafter, or more? either way neither could be considered innocent and a sheoard that chose to carry out summary justice for expediency would be well within their rights. as for samara she flat out tells you she'd try and kill you if you contravened her code. her. code.

Shep knows indoctrination cannot be cured if you fought benezia prior to shiala - therefore Shiala dies (same goes for that asari scientist on virmire and the salarians), if not its simple: Shiala cannot be trusted - agent of Saren with a conveniant change of heart at the last second - how stupid does shepard look..(pretty stupid, ME1 graphics le sigh lol).  Too many variables, too much risk in leaving her alive to bite me in the ass later, with no real payoff or future use to the mission in the long run (i just really dont like how she gets on her knees and turns around before you shoot her).  As said, Samara threatened to kill shep (like wrex!) - self preservation kicks in, she will become detrimental to the mission (believe it or not, my shepard likes living, she needs to be alive to defeat the reapers) - but when I meet her in that sanctuary she convieniantly forgets all that....ok, still suspicious, but will aid because the game makes me.
I didn't let her kill herself because she and her order are better kept alive for their fighting prowess against the reapers if Samara is willing to overlook killing Shep for her previous renegade choices (kinda curious to get a look at this list of codes)... killing her daughter might jeopordize that shallow but neeccesary relationship, be pointless to shoot her.  

Personally i never killed any of them, ok well Shiala once *shrugs shoulders*,  I like Samara's samurai code and as for Wrex threatening to kill me,  well other than Garrus he's probably the funniest squaddie so he gets a pass for being useful and making Tiberius laugh

[CrimsonN7]

Yuqi wrote...

And that PAragon picture about teaching kids reminded me of zoolander..Well Paragon Shep is about that stupid......*coughs*

"The Commander Shepard School for Kids Who Can't Read Good and Want to Do Other Stuff Good To". Has a nice ring to it eh:lol:

I think I can find a spot for Vega somewhere:whistle: We'll just tell the kids he's been held back... alot:P



Read a ME3 review recently, the reviewer said you'll end up caring more about Liara's plight then Princess Leia's. Mass Effect is a space opera to an extent like Star Wars, still waiting on our ewoks ending though:whistle:

Modifié par CrimsonN7, 11 juin 2012 - 08:13 .

[DOsquareZER]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

In short - pure, calculated, evil sociopathy. Thanks~.

100% renegade PT.   what did you expect?  We've all ready agreed 100% anything is crazy.  i was merel exploring one basic aspect of it.
install some rudimentry adoptions of morals (that a more renegade shep loopholes and twists), maybe a ''one chance rule'' like Shepard mentions giving cerberus - and lower it down to 70-30 (or lower even..) Renegon.  Shiala lives, everyone lives.  That scientist goes on a killing rampage as menionted via email, Shiala and her adopted village become the new mutant fighting force, wrex unites his people (shakily, i still don't trust it - still needs a couple generations of that kind of life to really change anything but its a start i suppose...im still not sure im all that comfortable giving them a cure, yet.), rachni join in at the cost of a few krogan, NO ONE takes advantage of your naive generosity and kind heartedness (not really, that Asari Spectre was pretty weak), and all in all - all those little paragon decisions end up paying off big time in the shape of double digited EMS, favoring the white knight hero theme and all of its unrealistic glory.  Why cant real life pay off like that... *shakes fists*
Aw, well... let paragons be paragons and renegades be renegades - both are flawed, next topic!

Modifié par doozer12, 11 juin 2012 - 09:14 .