56469 réponses à ce sujet

[adneate]

PMC65 wrote...
Do I think that she went to places at times though on her own? Yes. But I think there was a good mix.

Anything that was a big Prothean shin dig would for sure be with a team, mainly because there might be some kind of governmental oversight making sure people aren't just wandering in and digging for things. I imagine the ones that are solo would be anything pertaining to her ideas on the Prothean extinction, asking someone else for money to go chasing after that would be met with the thoughts of "Really Dr. T'Soni? This again?".

That being said the dig sites would be filled . . . with NERDS! If intergalactic archaeologists are anything like our terrestrial ones then they are a badly dressed, filthy horde that ruins perfectly good tourist destinations. A vertitable plague upon any parks and recreations manager!

So not the kind of people to learn high society skills from, unless your culture values goofy hats, khaki shorts and zinc sunscreen.

[PMC65]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

I've never understood why people think she would have done all of those alone

Because Liara says so. Because she happens to be alone on a dig when you run into her.

If you want her pure as the driven snow or experienced then it is up to you.

No it's not. You can't have a character very nearly unable to talk to strangers and make them a "experienced" at the same time. It's called "out of character"

Her notes on the Normandy in ME3 show that she was not always alone on her dig sites.

Liara appears to only has a problem talking to Shepard ... She seems fine holding her own with Ashley, Kaidan, Mallene Callis, etc.

[Nerevar-as]

Lizardviking wrote...

Hey guys! Glad to be back in this thread, and very thankful that you didn't jump foward a thousand pages while I was gone!

adneate wrote...

TheDonk95 wrote...
I think it is quite obvious she is a virgin.

Though I'd feel bad for Liara if she didn't at least have one of those youthful "high school" relationships if only because in order to know what you want you have to at least know what you don't want. Otherwise it's nothing but fantasy with no root in reality and she seems quite firm and confident in what she wants. The awkwardness stems more from trying to tell Shepard she has an interest than any discomfort with intimacy.

Didn't PMC state that there was a line from Liara were she say that she is not a virgin in the way Shepard thinks? Or did I make that completely up in my head?

She commented that being a virgin didn´t have the same connotations in asari culture as in others, but confirmed she´d never had sex before.

[Theodoro]

I don't understand why people are so unwilling to accept the fact that Liara is a virgin when everything in the lore points to that, with her actually telling Shepard outright that she is. I think it would take away from the power and significance of the romance build-up in ME1 if what she says is not actually true, no? That she has never even thought about it until she met Shepard? Some things don't need to be spoonfed to the player, and it's quite apparent by her hesitation that she's not even had casual sex. I think that the joining process is a crucial part of sex for the asari and so it would be necessary, but that is another matter altogether, and that's not the problem here.

If you twist the facts about Liara, then you simply don't want to accept that quality of your favorite character - and why do so? If you truly think that being virgin is a bad trait of Liara and you don't want it to be true for some reason I can't understand, then you want to neglect that trait to make her the Liara you want to be a fan of, and that's a different person than who she really is. There's only Liara as presented in the series, and she's a virgin before she becomes an item with Shepard, and that is something that just has to be accepted among fans who don't like that.

Modifié par Theodoro, 10 juillet 2012 - 06:18 .

[PMC65]

Theodoro wrote...

I don't understand why people are so unwilling to accept the fact that Liara is a virgin when everything in the lore points to that, with her actually telling Shepard outright that she is. I think it would take away from the power and significance of the romance build-up in ME1 if what she says is not actually true, no? That she has never even thought about it until she met Shepard? Some things don't need to be spoonfed to the player, and it's quite apparent by her hesitation that she's not even had casual sex. I think that the joining process is a crucial part of sex for the asari and so it would be necessary, but that is another matter altogether, and that's not the problem here.

If you twist the facts about Liara, then you simply don't want to accept that quality of your favorite character - and why do so? If you truly think that being virgin is a bad trait of Liara and you don't want it to be true for some reason I can't understand, then you want to neglect that trait to make her the Liara you want to be a fan of, and that's a different person than who she really is. There's only Liara as presented in the series, and she's a virgin before she becomes an item with Shepard, and that is something that just has to be accepted among fans who don't like that.

The virginity of Liara is a big part of who she is to you. Nothing wrong with that.

What happens in each of our worlds does not impact the other ... how we see the characters have different shading. I have not ever implied that how I see a character is required of someone else. I have seen many posters through the years have different interpretations of the characters and that is what brings me back here. To get different RPG views, different stories, etc.

If we all saw the characters exactly the same, had the same stories ... I would have left last year. Instead people bring new ways of seeing characters and in some of my ME worlds I take a piece of that. Liara in EW's world is not the same Liara in PV Shepard's world and so on ... Do you really want to just hear people parrot what you see?

I like hearing different views on the characters ... but if you want to have just the virginal, reclusive, can't speak to strangers Liara discussed ... then so be it. 

 

[TheMarshal]

Theodoro wrote...

I don't understand why people are so unwilling to accept the fact that Liara is a virgin when everything in the lore points to that, with her actually telling Shepard outright that she is. I think it would take away from the power and significance of the romance build-up in ME1 if what she says is not actually true, no? That she has never even thought about it until she met Shepard? Some things don't need to be spoonfed to the player, and it's quite apparent by her hesitation that she's not even had casual sex. I think that the joining process is a crucial part of sex for the asari and so it would be necessary, but that is another matter altogether, and that's not the problem here.

If you twist the facts about Liara, then you simply don't want to accept that quality of your favorite character - and why do so? If you truly think that being virgin is a bad trait of Liara and you don't want it to be true for some reason I can't understand, then you want to neglect that trait to make her the Liara you want to be a fan of, and that's a different person than who she really is. There's only Liara as presented in the series, and she's a virgin before she becomes an item with Shepard, and that is something that just has to be accepted among fans who don't like that.

You realize, though, that Liara is a made-up person with an incomplete personal history, and we are well within our rights as fans to fill in the gaps as we see fit.  The lore in this area is ambiguous at best and even YOU have to extrapolate certain facets of her past in order to come to some of your conclusions.

In my headcanon, I see Liara as having having been on a handful of dates and perhaps even gotten to the asari equivalent of third base at some point in her century of life.  She didn't get much out of those relationships and instead decided to focus on her education until she met Alice.

That all fits perfectly well within the confines of what is mentioned in-game.  In someone else's headcanon, it might be the case that Liara simply never had any sort of sexual feelings until she met Shepard.  Bully for them!  Is one person "right"?  Nope.  These are things which don't happen in game and are left up to the player to interpret.

Edit: PMC put it better than I did.  It is the greatest strength of this game that we can see the same character, the same facts and the same interactions, and come up with completely different interpretations of who they are as a person.

Modifié par TheMarshal, 10 juillet 2012 - 06:36 .

[Akernis]

I agree with Theo, there is nothing to indicate that she has had any sexual experience before.
It won't hurt me if people headcanon that she has, for wahtever reason, had apartner before, but I just don't see anything in the game verifying that. But to each his own I suposse.
And why does it have to be about innocence or experience? she simply has not had the desire to do so before now.

About the "being alone on digs" she does say that she prefers the solitude and always tend to say something embarrishing around other people woud indicate that she probably spends by far the most time alone, even if not all of it.

Modifié par Akernis, 10 juillet 2012 - 06:42 .

[Theodoro]

PMC65 wrote...
The virginity of Liara is a big part of who she is to you. Nothing wrong with that.

What happens in each of our worlds does not impact the other ... how we see the characters have different shading. I have not ever implied that how I see a character is required of someone else. I have seen many posters through the years have different interpretations of the characters and that is what brings me back here. To get different RPG views, different stories, etc.

If we all saw the characters exactly the same, had the same stories ... I would have left last year. Instead people bring new ways of seeing characters and in some of my ME worlds I take a piece of that. Liara in EW's world is not the same Liara in PV Shepard's world and so on ... Do you really want to just hear people parrot what you see?

I like hearing different views on the characters ... but if you want to have just the virginal, reclusive, can't speak to strangers Liara discussed ... then so be it. 
 

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. At all. Liara being a virgin is not a 'big part' of who she is to me, it's a character quality that she has, a fact, and it's not a different view to think of her as not being a virgin, but changing the facts. And that's why when you say that she's not a virgin, you don't actually have a different view about her, but instead you change her into somebody that's really not Liara anymore.

Sure, I could pretend that Liara is not socially awkward in ME1 or that she does not want to rescue Feron in ME2, I could have her not actually recovering Shepard's body, but that wouldn't be having a different view of Liara, that would be changing her character that way. And if you want to see other people twisting Liara in that way and changing her qualities to the point of her being out of character either in their stories or other works of fiction so that she's not really Liara anymore, more power to you then.

TheMarshal wrote...
You realize, though, that Liara is a made-up person with an incomplete personal history, and we are well within our rights as fans to fill in the gaps as we see fit.  The lore in this area is ambiguous at best and even YOU have to extrapolate certain facets of her past in order to come to some of your conclusions.

And it would be perfectly fine to explore actual gaps in either her personality, past, her traits and qualities and everything else. But what is already stated in the lore cannot be changed. That would be making your own version of Liara. And I don't think it's ambiguous at all - the asari think of sex as something very different than humans, and that is why Liara is so hesitant to even admit that to Shepard because she knows just how humans tend to act towards people who are virgins - otherwise there would have been no shame at all to admit that to Shepard, because the union is what it is - something that must be thought carefully about before even considering it, and there is no shame for not having done it at the age of one hundred and six, which is equivalent to a teenager.

Modifié par Theodoro, 10 juillet 2012 - 06:40 .

[PMC65]

Theodoro - I am not changing any facts. Liara never discusses her physical past with Shepard ... only melding. If Shepard asks if she is a virgin (physically untouched) she does not say "Oh, yes! I am a virgin." She is only talking about melding ... a union of the minds.

You are also moving what she says farther then she does by including that to mean physical touch. But since she is not real and so we can't have her settle the dispute ... well, to keep you happy ... Liara is a virgin. Better?

EDIT:

Also notice when she brings up melding ... she is talking about the reputation of the asari. They are a sexually free species and she is trying to tell Shepard that the other species misunderstand them. You can take what she is telling Shepard whatever way you want to but for me she was explaining why having sex was not considered being loose. To them physical pleasure is no different then eating or sleeping ... they have something else that is considered their form of "making love". Sex = pleasure / meld = love

That is also why a Liara would not bat an eye at a threesome and why physically on the night before Ilos she is pretty aggressive with Shepard physically. Chaste or not chaste ... its up to you.

Modifié par PMC65, 10 juillet 2012 - 06:48 .

[Theodoro]

PMC65 wrote...
Theodoro - I am not changing any facts. Liara never discusses her physical past with Shepard ... only melding. If Shepard asks if she is a virgin (physically untouched) she does not say "Oh, yes! I am a virgin." She is only talking about melding ... a union of the minds.

A union, as stated by herself, is uniting bodies and minds, creating one rapturous whole - and that is the essence of the joining in which she has never done before meeting Shepard. One is required for the other, and she has done neither. And do you expect that Liara would be blunt about this and say that she's a virgin in such a way? Liara says so in her own way, and repeating myself again from my arguments, she wouldn't even be hesitating to admit that to Shepard because she's afraid of what he/she would think of her afterwards, because he/she only associates that to casual sex.

And Akernis reposted her exact words a page back, and if that is not indicative of that, then yes, you expect Liara to be blunt about it - but she is not, because it's Liara, which has been the point of this conversation.

Modifié par Theodoro, 10 juillet 2012 - 06:51 .

[Aristobulus500]

PMC, you are changing the facts. As Theo says, Liara is hesitant to admit to being a virgin, despite that Asari don't think of things that way, because she knows what Shepard might be thinking, as a human.

And do you want to argue that Liara had physical sex, but didn't like the person enough to actually initiate a mind meld? Because that doesn't seem in character for Liara. She's hesitant to even start a relationship with Shepard, much less sex and much less mind melding. It just doesn't fit her character.

I can't see what you're doing as anything other than twisting Liara's character into a completely new character because you don't want to admit these things about Liara, and then you slap the name "Liara" on this new Asari you've created.

You really need to just come to terms with the fact that there are qualities about Liara you do not like, and that she has flaws. You can either write about Liara as she is, or you should write a story about an entirely new Asari in a different relationship, that does have these qualities you desire.

Doing anything else is to not actually write about Liara at all, just an imposter. It's a farce.

[PMC65]

Theodoro wrote...

PMC65 wrote...
Theodoro - I am not changing any facts. Liara never discusses her physical past with Shepard ... only melding. If Shepard asks if she is a virgin (physically untouched) she does not say "Oh, yes! I am a virgin." She is only talking about melding ... a union of the minds.

A union, as stated by herself, is uniting bodies and minds, creating one rapturous whole - and that is the essence of the joining in which she has never done before meeting Shepard. One is required for the other, and she has done neither. And do you expect that Liara would be blunt about this and say that she's a virgin in such a way? Liara says so in her own way, and repeating myself again from my arguments, she wouldn't even be hesitating to admit that to Shepard because she's afraid of what he/she would think of her afterwards, because he/she only associates that to casual sex.

Your Liara is a virgin. I have no problem with that.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Nerevar-as wrote...
She commented that being a virgin didn´t have the same connotations in asari culture as in others, but confirmed she´d never had sex before.

Really? I just swear that I read she said that she was not a virgin in the way Shepard (or humans in general) understood, which for me could be interpretated that she might have had experienced sex minus the meld.

Would be nice if someone could post how the conversation exactly transpires.

[PMC65]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

PMC, you are changing the facts. As Theo says, Liara is hesitant to admit to being a virgin, despite that Asari don't think of things that way, because she knows what Shepard might be thinking, as a human.

And do you want to argue that Liara had physical sex, but didn't like the person enough to actually initiate a mind meld? Because that doesn't seem in character for Liara. She's hesitant to even start a relationship with Shepard, much less sex and much less mind melding. It just doesn't fit her character.

I can't see what you're doing as anything other than twisting Liara's character into a completely new character because you don't want to admit these things about Liara, and then you slap the name "Liara" on this new Asari you've created.

You really need to just come to terms with the fact that there are qualities about Liara you do not like, and that she has flaws. You can either write about Liara as she is, or you should write a story about an entirely new Asari in a different relationship, that does have these qualities you desire.

Doing anything else is to not actually write about Liara at all, just an imposter. It's a farce.

So ... you are the keepers of the keys. Good to know.

[Akernis]

Theodoro wrote...
otherwise there would have been no shame at all to admit that to Shepard, because the union is what it is - something that must be thought carefully about before even considering it, and there is no shame for not having done it at the age of one hundred and six, which is equivalent to a teenager.

Teenager might be taking it a little far "barely an adult by asari standards". I think that would be early twenties, not many teenagers have a full education and been working half their life amongst humans and I asume that holds true for asari as well, but yes very young.

And we need some more blue

[Theodoro]

PMC65 wrote...
Your Liara is a virgin. I have no problem with that.

Liara is a virgin before she meets Shepard. Yours is not. I have a problem with that, because it's not Liara.

Akernis wrote...
Teenager might be taking it a little far "barely an adult by asari standards". I think that would be early twenties, not many teenagers have a full education and been working halftheir life amongst humans and I asumethat holds true for asari as well, but yes very young.

There is no real equivalent so her age being that of a human teenager is wrong to say, yeah, but the same argument applies.

Modifié par Theodoro, 10 juillet 2012 - 06:54 .

[Aristobulus500]

PMC65 wrote...
Your Liara is a virgin. I have no problem with that.

You really don't get it. There's no such thing as "my" Liara. There is no such thing as "your" Liara. There is only "Liara". This is a deeply flawed understanding of writing characters you hold. Liara is not an original character you made up for you to poke and prod and meld into the form you want, there is a canon here that she fits to.

[TheMarshal]

Theodoro wrote...

TheMarshal wrote...
You realize, though, that Liara is a made-up person with an incomplete personal history, and we are well within our rights as fans to fill in the gaps as we see fit.  The lore in this area is ambiguous at best and even YOU have to extrapolate certain facets of her past in order to come to some of your conclusions.

And it would be perfectly fine to explore actual gaps in either her personality, past, her traits and qualities and everything else. But what is already stated in the lore cannot be changed. That would be making your own version of Liara. And I don't think it's ambiguous at all - the asari think of sex as something very different than humans, and that is why Liara is so hesitant to even admit that to Shepard because she knows just how humans tend to act towards people who are virgins - otherwise there would have been no shame at all to admit that to Shepard, because the union is what it is - something that must be thought carefully about before even considering it, and there is no shame for not having done it at the age of one hundred and six, which is equivalent to a teenager.

But as you've said, and has been stated in this thread and previous iterations of this thread at least a dozen times over, the asari think of sex as something very different than humans.  You're referring to the joining of minds, which I would argue effectively adds a "fifth base" to the metaphor.  Going by the standards of base-running, Liara would be a virgin until she reached the final base, meaning she could have reached bases 1-4 and still be a virgin by asari standards.

[Goku16]

i hate how even though i romance her in me 1 and 2. she kept calling meh a friend in me 3, it pisses meh off .

[moreeman06]

FdL_Ananas wrote...

And done ...

FShep


MShep


Not perfect but it works, I guess

ok I know this is from 10+ pages ago but i think it deserves a repost.  Excellent as always Ananas and I have to agree with Doozer and PMC on this one *checks temperture* yeah not sick I'm actually agreeing with PMC for once....  I would enjoy seeing some 40's vintage nose art on the star fighters and some good old fashion swing, put Liara in a flapper dress I'm sure we'd all enjoy it:D

[TheCrimsonSpire]

I think people need to calm down about whether or not Liara is a virgin or not. It honestly is not important to her character development in the long run, because she grows up as a person after ME1.

Can't we all just agree that Liara is great, whether or not she is a virgin.

[Nerevar-as]

Lizardviking wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...
She commented that being a virgin didn´t have the same connotations in asari culture as in others, but confirmed she´d never had sex before.

Really? I just swear that I read she said that she was not a virgin in the way Shepard (or humans in general) understood, which for me could be interpretated that she might have had experienced sex minus the meld.

Would be nice if someone could post how the conversation exactly transpires.

It´s implied asari always meld during sex, that´s what makes it so good.

Should have a save before that conversation, but I don´t feel like playing ME again after the CE, even to check, at least not for now.

[Aristobulus500]

TheMarshal wrote...
But as you've said, and has been stated in this thread and previous iterations of this thread at least a dozen times over, the asari think of sex as something very different than humans.  You're referring to the joining of minds, which I would argue effectively adds a "fifth base" to the metaphor.  Going by the standards of base-running, Liara would be a virgin until she reached the final base, meaning she could have reached bases 1-4 and still be a virgin by asari standards.

True, but we're given absolutely no reason to think this is the case for Liara, and her character instead points to being a virgin to physical sex, too.

Think about it - if she's only a virgin to mind melding, why is she so nervous and apprehensive about admitting that to Shepard? As far as Shepard would be concerned, she's not a virgin so she wouldn't even have to explain that Asari have different views on if it's bad to be a virgin or not.

But she IS shy and nervous about it, which means she thinks Shepard might think negatively of her, and in what other situation could Shepard possibly do that, than when she is a virgin to physical sex?

As well, to say otherwise - is to say she's quick to have physical sex but selective about mind melding - except she doesn't portray that in her character. She's very cautious about even the basic relationship with Shepard, long before mind melding enters into it, and look how long it takes them to even kiss. Nothing about her attitude and way she approaches Shepard's relationship speaks of a character that doesn't put that much stock in physical relations.

[PMC65]

TheMarshal wrote...

Theodoro wrote...

TheMarshal wrote...
You realize, though, that Liara is a made-up person with an incomplete personal history, and we are well within our rights as fans to fill in the gaps as we see fit.  The lore in this area is ambiguous at best and even YOU have to extrapolate certain facets of her past in order to come to some of your conclusions.

And it would be perfectly fine to explore actual gaps in either her personality, past, her traits and qualities and everything else. But what is already stated in the lore cannot be changed. That would be making your own version of Liara. And I don't think it's ambiguous at all - the asari think of sex as something very different than humans, and that is why Liara is so hesitant to even admit that to Shepard because she knows just how humans tend to act towards people who are virgins - otherwise there would have been no shame at all to admit that to Shepard, because the union is what it is - something that must be thought carefully about before even considering it, and there is no shame for not having done it at the age of one hundred and six, which is equivalent to a teenager.

But as you've said, and has been stated in this thread and previous iterations of this thread at least a dozen times over, the asari think of sex as something very different than humans.  You're referring to the joining of minds, which I would argue effectively adds a "fifth base" to the metaphor.  Going by the standards of base-running, Liara would be a virgin until she reached the final base, meaning she could have reached bases 1-4 and still be a virgin by asari standards.

I don't think they are going to get this, Marshal ... You either see it the way they do or you are not understand Liara and all who she is. Oh, you of faulty understanding!

EDIT: TOP

http://t0.gstatic.co...hNUh7-SHW4r0DXh

Modifié par PMC65, 10 juillet 2012 - 07:06 .

[Theodoro]

TheMarshal wrote...
But as you've said, and has been stated in this thread and previous iterations of this thread at least a dozen times over, the asari think of sex as something very different than humans.  You're referring to the joining of minds, which I would argue effectively adds a "fifth base" to the metaphor.  Going by the standards of base-running, Liara would be a virgin until she reached the final base, meaning she could have reached bases 1-4 and still be a virgin by asari standards.

That does not in any way discount the fact that Liara says that mind melding is something very important for the life of an asari, that it is something that they would think about for many, many years before committing to it, so why would she even be ashamed if she was a virgin among her own people? And that's ignoring the fact that there's no social stigma about being one among the asari. She is clearly afraid to admit to Shepard because he/she's a human and she knows how they might think of that.

Modifié par Theodoro, 10 juillet 2012 - 07:07 .