56469 réponses à ce sujet

[Aristobulus500]

You can't twist this back on us, PMC. You do realize your line of thinking, that just because *you're* writing it now, you can do whatever you want with the characters, is what leads to things like Redemption, the rest of the ME EU, and then the entirety of the Star Wars EU as well, right?

Those were writers that wanted to do whatever they wanted with established characters, too. And it doesn't work.

[TheDonk95]

I understand what PMC is trying to say, that in his head-canon Liara lost her virginity ('phsical' sex) before she met Shepard. I think that there is no problem that you have head canon, but I strongly disagree with that, because as Theodoro and Aristobulu said, it is really, really unlike Liara and her personality. That's just my opinion (and I think about most people here), but it is your right to have your own head canon about Liara

[Mavqt]

Goku16 wrote...


i hate how even though i romance her in me 1 and 2. she kept calling meh a friend in me 3, it pisses meh off .

I understand having to rekindle the relationship 1 time. But being called a friend at every corner was abit annoying. And anyone who says that friend has a different meaning to asari obviously didn't listen to Atheyta on the Citadel.

Also
+1

Edit: Sorry for the "rant".

Modifié par mavqt, 10 juillet 2012 - 07:15 .

[PMC65]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

You can't twist this back on us, PMC. You do realize your line of thinking, that just because *you're* writing it now, you can do whatever you want with the characters, is what leads to things like Redemption, the rest of the ME EU, and then the entirety of the Star Wars EU as well, right?

Those were writers that wanted to do whatever they wanted with established characters, too. And it doesn't work.

Twisting what? How I see Liara is based off what I saw in-game as you have done the same thing. Where I heard her talking about melding ("where touch may or may not be included") you heard her talking about virginity. I do not say you are wrong but it does not mean that I apply your hearing to mine.

Liara had a past ... a 106 year long past before you meet her. Did she have a girlfriend in college? Did she date during any of that time? She never says. Only that she never took that final step with anyone.

But since you and I are not going to see eye top eye on this one ... I'll just tip my hat and bid you a good day and no hard feelings!

[Mavqt]

Also this "Debate" going on between you lot. My comment would be that I read fanfics of Liara to get other peoples impressions of Liara, I love PMC's fics aswell as many others.

Not to add to the fire or anything.

Edit: Speaking of PMCs' fics, Update please.

Modifié par mavqt, 10 juillet 2012 - 07:19 .

[Batlass8]

Just because Liara is the kind of person to approach relationships seriously, doesn't mean that she's never had a physical relationship before.

We all know that there's a distinction between the meld and physical sex. There isn't a need for a physical component to asari intimate relations. I don't think it's inaccurate to imagine that the asari have different tiers of virginity based on physical relations versus the meld. Liara does talk about bodies and minds uniting, but she never says that both elements are required for a relationship.

What I think we can all agree on is that Liara time to trust someone enough to let them in at all. So much so that she has never melded with anyone. Whether that means she's never been physically intimate either... there really is room to interpret, if we so choose.

[Han Shot First]

Akernis wrote...


She certainly has never joined with anyone else before, while it is technically possible that she has had non-joining sex with someone else before it makes little sense to me (provided asari even do that). Liara is a very intimate person I doubt she would ever have been in a casual relationship just for sex, and if she had been in intimate relationship before she would no doubt have thought about Joining with whomever that was.

There is actually a third possibility. Liara *may* have had physical sex while involved in a relationship, but the relationsip never progressed to the point where she considered melding with that person. I'm not saying that is necessarily the case, as no matter which stance you take on the 'did she or didn't she' debate, there is a ton of speculation involved. And we know next to nothing on Asari social mores or taboos in regards to melding.

But if we look at human relationships, there are many different levels of serious committed relationships. For some couples for example it might just mean that they are exlusively seeing each other, while for others it may mean that they are ready to move in together or are planning marriage or even raising children together. I would imagine that there would be different levels of serious committed relationships for Asari as well, and as such 'melding' may not be a feature of all them. That would depend in large part on how serious the Asari take melding, and what stage in their relationship couples typically meld. While Liara's dialogue does imply that melding isn't something that Asari casually engage in, we know nothing about the latter. It would also depend on whether Asari even have physical sex without melding, which we also don't know.

I guess the above is just my long-winded way of saying that we shouldn't assume that for Asari, physical sex without melding automatically implies a casual relationship. That may not necessarily be the case.

*If* (and this is a big if) Liara has had physical sex before meeting Shepard however, I do agree that it wasn't a casual fling. That would seemingly be at odds with the character we meet in Mass Effect 1. In that case it would have happened while Liara had been dating someone, rather than during the course of a fling.

I also think that if Liara had relationsip(s) before meeting Shepard, they were almost certainly with other Asari.


On that note....Liara and Shiala shipping anyone?




J/K on that last bit, but they would make a cute couple 

Modifié par Han Shot First, 10 juillet 2012 - 07:34 .

[Theodoro]

Batlass8 wrote...
Just because Liara is the kind of person to approach relationships seriously, doesn't mean that she's never had a physical relationship before.

We all know that there's a distinction between the meld and physical sex. There isn't a need for a physical component to asari intimate relations. I don't think it's inaccurate to imagine that the asari have different tiers of virginity based on physical relations versus the meld. Liara does talk about bodies and minds uniting, but she never says that both elements are required for a relationship.

What I think we can all agree on is that Liara time to trust someone enough to let them in at all. So much so that she has never melded with anyone. Whether that means she's never been physically intimate either... there really is room to interpret, if we so choose.

Yet the mind meld that does not include physical sex is something Liara has done - such as helping Shepard interpret the images of the Cipher. So she would obviously not be hesitant about not being in a mind meld before because she has, she has not been in union somebody with a physical aspect to it, which would equal the union that she is afraid to admit she hasn't been in before to Shepard. And that's why asari choose their partners with great care beforehand - because with physical contact when it comes to sex, joining is also an integral component.

Han Shot First wrote...
*If* (and this is a big if) Liara has had physical sex before meeting Shepard however, I do agree that it wasn't a casual fling. That would seemingly be at odds with the character we meet in Mass Effect 1. In that case it would have happened while Liara had been dating someone, rather than during the course of a fling.

Yes, if she was with someone before, it wouldn't have been a casual fling - and then what she says about never thinking about mind melding would be contradicting with her past, and this is why that must not be true. Because she admits to Shepard that she's never even been thinking about joining with another. And since she wouldn't engage in a casual fling, why wouldn't she be thinking of joining?

Modifié par Theodoro, 10 juillet 2012 - 07:30 .

[DOsquareZER]

Arn't there different types of mental bonds - forget the terms, but theres one for purely information swapping while another transcends space and time and merging and all that mystical mumbo jumbo of space magic science.  Otherwise i totally just cheated on Liara with shiala... in front of her... oops.

Modifié par doozer12, 10 juillet 2012 - 07:36 .

[adneate]

mavqt wrote...
Not to add to the fire or anything.

There's always someone with no dog in the fight, so to speak. I know personally it's an irrelevent matter to me, I like Liara because of how she's written, acted and her dynamic with Shepard. Doesn't matter to me if she did or didn't take another Asari's clothes off in school behind the bleachers.

As an aside I think "virginal" characters can tend to be really annoying in fiction, just going by BioWare's work I found Merril in DA2 insufferable and unappealing. Isabela was way more my speed even though in the end I didn't like that romance arc much either. Liara isn't much of a stock boilerplate virgin character since after the initial awkward "I like you do you like me?" she's pretty confident and assured that Shepard is who she wants. Which is refreshing, since the awkwardness and the waffling back and forth gets old really fast for me. In both fiction and in real life I don't want someone who doesn't know what they themselves want.

But that's just me thinking out loud about this kinda stuff.

[Han Shot First]

doozer12 wrote...

Arn't there different types of mental bonds - forget the terms, but theres one for purely information swapping while another transcends space and time and merging and all that mystical mumbo jumbo of space magic science.

I don't recall if they use different terminology, but there are different kinds of melding. Liara's farewell gift in ME3 is a good example, if unromanced.

Liara and Benezia may have shared a similar gift when Liara left for the University of Serrice, assuming they were on good terms at the time.

[DOsquareZER]

adneate wrote...

mavqt wrote...
Not to add to the fire or anything.

There's always someone with no dog in the fight, so to speak. I know personally it's an irrelevent matter to me, I like Liara because of how she's written, acted and her dynamic with Shepard. Doesn't matter to me if she did or didn't take another Asari's clothes off in school behind the bleachers.

As an aside I think "virginal" characters can tend to be really annoying in fiction, just going by BioWare's work I found Merril in DA2 insufferable and unappealing. Isabela was way more my speed even though in the end I didn't like that romance arc much either. Liara isn't much of a stock boilerplate virgin character since after the initial awkward "I like you do you like me?" she's pretty confident and assured that Shepard is who she wants. Which is refreshing, since the awkwardness and the waffling back and forth gets old really fast for me. In both fiction and in real life I don't want someone who doesn't know what they themselves want.

But that's just me thinking out loud about this kinda stuff.

This. 

I would enjoy seeing some 40's vintage nose art on the star fighters and
some good old fashion swing, put Liara in a flapper dress I'm sure we'd
all enjoy it

Haha!  I like this human!  He understands!  Your a he right?  Because i once threatened to chop the balls off a he once nad realized it was a she and needless to say it was a really awkward page of posts, i think the poster is still up in the PETA work place looking for someones balls..
anyways *clears throat* moving on.  Continue with the argument of holes in Liara's character.  *giggity*

Modifié par doozer12, 10 juillet 2012 - 07:45 .

[TheMarshal]

Han Shot First wrote...

There is actually a third possibility. Liara *may* have had physical sex while involved in a relationship, but the relationsip never progressed to the point where she considered melding with that person. I'm not saying that is necessarily the case, as no matter which stance you take on the 'did she or didn't she' debate, there is a ton of speculation involved. And we know next to nothing on Asari social mores or taboos in regards to melding.

But if we look at human relationships, there are many different levels of serious committed relationships. For some couples for example it might just mean that they are exlusively seeing each other, while for others it may mean that they are ready to move in together or are planning marriage or even raising children together. I would imagine that there would be different levels of serious committed relationships for Asari as well, and as such 'melding' may not be a feature of all them. That would depend in large part on how serious the Asari take melding, and what stage in their relationship couples typically meld. While Liara's dialogue does imply that melding isn't something that Asari casually engage in, we know nothing about the latter. It would also depend on whether Asari even have physical sex without melding, which we also don't know.

I guess the above is just my long-winded way of saying that we shouldn't assume that for Asari, physical sex without melding automatically implies a casual relationship. That may not necessarily be the case.

*If* (and this is a big if) Liara has had physical sex before meeting Shepard however, I do agree that it wasn't a casual fling. That would seemingly be at odds with the character we meet in Mass Effect 1. In that case it would have happened while Liara had been dating someone, rather than during the course of a fling.

I also think that if Liara had relationsip(s) before meeting Shepard, they were almost certainly with other Asari.


On that note....Liara and Shiala shipping anyone?




J/K on that last bit, but they would make a cute couple 

This is pretty much what I was getting at.  Everything that was set here is what I was trying to convey.

Except Liara/Shiala...  There's something wrong with you...  

[Han Shot First]

Yes, if she was with someone before, it wouldn't have been a casual fling - and then what she says about never thinking about mind melding would be contradicting with her past, and this is why that must not be true. Because she admits to Shepard that she's never even been thinking about joining with another. And since she wouldn't engage in a casual fling, why wouldn't she be thinking of joining?

It all depends on what stage in relationships melding typically happens, and whether or not the Asari are capable of (and enjoy) having sex without it.

If the Asari never have physical sex without melding, than Liara is also virgin from a human point of view. Buf if the Asari are able to seperate the act of physical sex from melding, it is possible that Liara was just saying that she was never comfortable enough with someone to meld, but not necessarily saying that she's never been in a relationship. In which, you could go either way on whether or not Liara had physical sex and not clash with established canon.

Casual flings would be out of character however, at least from my point of view.

xcept Liara/Shiala...  There's something wrong with you... 

Well she is no Liara, I'll give you that. But she does look good in purple!

Modifié par Han Shot First, 10 juillet 2012 - 07:55 .

[sharkboy421]

mavqt wrote...

Goku16 wrote...


i hate how even though i romance her in me 1 and 2. she kept calling meh a friend in me 3, it pisses meh off .

I understand having to rekindle the relationship 1 time. But being called a friend at every corner was abit annoying. And anyone who says that friend has a different meaning to asari obviously didn't listen to Atheyta on the Citadel.

Also
+1

Edit: Sorry for the "rant".

I just have to second this.  It was my biggest grievence with the Liara romance arc in ME3. 

[Akernis]

Batlass8 wrote...
We all know that there's a distinction between the meld and physical sex.

Where do we know that from? Liara says that "the union is more than just sex", but that could just as easily mean that the union for asari is more than what other races sees as sex.
Is asari even capable of what we term sex? unless I have completly forgotten my biology lessens that would require a male partner since they are female, two asari would not be able to "have sex" without it either being just passionate cudling or all-out joining. While I understand that it is not an universily shared belief here I believe that the equivalent of sex for an asari would always involve their mental bonding / nevous system melding ability and would thus be a union.

doozer12 wrote...

Arn't there different types of mental bonds - forget the terms, but theres one for purely information swapping while another transcends space and time and merging and all that mystical mumbo jumbo of space magic science.  Otherwise i totally just cheated on Liara with shiala... in front of her... oops.

Yes there are meldings and unions/joinings. A meld is simply a mental exchange of information and as seen when Liara and Shiala each melds with Shepard due to the beacon/cipher and when Benezia takes the location of the mu Relay from the rachni queen does necessarily have to be sexual, in fact I would take it a step fruther and say that I don't think there is every anything sexual about an ordinary melding it is just a way of transfering information, albit in a way that far beyond simple conversation. While the union on the other hand is that deeply spiritual experience that she talks about that bonds two individuals. 

Modifié par Akernis, 10 juillet 2012 - 07:58 .

[Barquiel]

Han Shot First wrote...

On that note....Liara and Shiala shipping anyone?

J/K on that last bit, but they would make a cute couple 

I ship them...200-300 years in the future

[Han Shot First]

Barquiel wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

On that note....Liara and Shiala shipping anyone?

J/K on that last bit, but they would make a cute couple 

I ship them...200-300 years in the future

Did you also pick destroy?

Just curious, as that could potentially have Shiala as a step 'father' to Shepard's children. That would be kind of interesting. Assuming also of course that Shepard's cybernetics give him or her a longer lifespan. 

Modifié par Han Shot First, 10 juillet 2012 - 08:08 .

[Theodoro]

Han Shot First wrote...
Did you also pick destroy?

Just curious, as that could potentially have Shiala as a step 'father' to Shepard's children. That would be kind of interesting. Assuming also of course that Shepard's cybernetics give him or her a longer lifespan. 

Wonder what happens to Shiala after Destroy, since from the e-mail we get from her in ME3 she says she's convinced that she is still indoctrinated, and that coupled with the fact that there are still Thorian spores inside her and the people from Zhu's Hope don't really make her for an ideal candidate for survival or a normal life.

[Xilizhra]

Is asari even capable of what we term sex? unless I have completly forgotten my biology lessens that would require a male partner since they are female, two asari would not be able to "have sex" without it either being just passionate cudling or all-out joining. While I understand that it is not an universily shared belief here I believe that the equivalent of sex for an asari would always involve their mental bonding / nevous system melding ability and would thus be a union.

Well, thanks to the presumably mischievous efforts of Banshee modelers, we know that asari have genitalia more or less similar to human ones. This leads me to believe that their ancestors had sexes, but they evolved into their own form of parthenogenesis with time. However, it's very likely that they still receive ordinary, physical sexual pleasure along with the mental form.

Personally, I believe that Liara probably has some form of romantic relationship experience, but it's never gone into clothing removal territory.

[Barquiel]

Han Shot First wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

On that note....Liara and Shiala shipping anyone?

J/K on that last bit, but they would make a cute couple 

I ship them...200-300 years in the future

Did you also pick destroy?

Just curious, as that could potentially have Shiala as a step 'father' to Shepard's children. That would be kind of interesting. Assuming also of course that Shepard's cybernetics give him or her a longer lifespan. 

Yes, I picked destroy.

I don't expect her to live alone for the next 800 years...and I think she could definitely do worse than Shiala (I suppose they know each other).

[PMC65]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, thanks to the presumably mischievous efforts of Banshee modelers, we know that asari have genitalia more or less similar to human ones. This leads me to believe that their ancestors had sexes, but they evolved into their own form of parthenogenesis with time. However, it's very likely that they still receive ordinary, physical sexual pleasure along with the mental form.

Personally, I believe that Liara probably has some form of romantic relationship experience, but it's never gone into clothing removal territory.

I always thought Shepard just had sex with the consort ... her eyes never went black to signify a meld and Shepard asks Liara what she needs to do when they go to meld their first time. If Shepard had melded with the consort she would have known what to do. 

If the asari see sex (not melding) as just an enjoyment in life it would make sense why they can be strippers and consorts without shame. And why Liara says that other species misunderstand them.

Of course, Liara understands jealousy more than she would like to admit and doesn't like competition from another asari!

[kumquats]

doozer12 wrote...

Arn't there different types of mental bonds - forget the terms, but theres one for purely information swapping while another transcends space and time and merging and all that mystical mumbo jumbo of space magic science.  Otherwise i totally just cheated on Liara with shiala... in front of her... oops.

Shiala= melding
Liara= a true union
Sha'ira= Titanic sex scene ^.^

I can't remember any other term.

Modifié par kumquats, 10 juillet 2012 - 08:35 .

[TheMarshal]

PMC65 wrote...

Of course, Liara understands jealousy more than she would like to admit and doesn't like competition from another asari!

I love that scene and was bummed when I didn't get it in my last playthrough!  But yeah, she totally understands jealousy more than she lets on...


Shadow Broker's private property
~HumanGrotesque

[noxiuniversitas1]

Akernis wrote...

karmensandiego wrote...
I think Jen kinda rolled her eyes at the extreme fluff and lack of drama, but whatever SHE CAN'T TAKE BACK MY THREE WISHES.

I think she likes writting it, despite what she says , there just has to be a balance between the fluff and the drama/action.
Oh I can barely wait till she publishes the next chapter, whether of Foever As One or Nova et Vetera

*cough*
Errr yes.. All warm and fluffy on the inside. You actually have my fiance to blame for the fluff... That chapter would probably never have been written had he not given me a toothache which needed sharing 

Just to prove a point I might just now go angstify Nova et Vetera even more 

@CrimsonN7: thanks for reading and your kind words.. But Ch 4 will have to wait - fully intend on enjoying the last day of my vacation