56469 réponses à ce sujet

[adneate]

Lizardviking wrote...
Thats about it right?

I say it's even more sinister than that the lies about Shepard's teammates are all part of a concerted effort to isolate Shepard from those that genuinely care about her or him, and break Shepard down emotionally leaving them depressed and easier to manipulate. It's all part of a systematic campaign of disinformation to ensure Shepard is as docile and as easily lead around as possible, fostering feelings of depression and resentment of those who "turned their back" on Shepard. As well as presenting a flase front of what Cerberus is, who joins them and what their goals and idealogy are. Trying to spin the organization as well intentioned if harsh as opposed to the drooling gang of xenophobic thugs and mercenaries they really are lead by a megalomaniac with a messianic complex.

I imagine The Illusive Man had a frothing fit of rage when Archangel was revealed as Garrus and Tali showed up on Freedom's Progress. Since his goal was likely to have either as may sympathetic Cerberus personnel as possible or people as ignorant of what Cerberus truly is as Shepard. All to build the seamless illusion that was the Cerberus SR2 and the universe of lies it floated in.

[Xilizhra]

Wait, did TIM even lie about anyone other than Liara?

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

Wait, did TIM even lie about anyone other than Liara?

He didn't, he had no need to.

[Barquiel]

I never understood why he lied.

Liara never tried to conceal the fact that she wants to kill the SB, TIM must have known about her activities.

But he's the one who sends Shepard to Illium and Cerberus gave you the intel that points to the Shadow Broker's home base. He knew Shep would discover the truth...

Modifié par Barquiel, 10 juillet 2012 - 11:58 .

[adneate]

TIM intentionally sabotages the reunion on Horizon by feeding Alliance Intelligence information about Shepard being alive and working with Cerberus. Likely in a way that ensures no matter what Shepard said the Virmire Survivor would be upset with the confirmation that Shepard was indeed with Cerberus.

He doesn't even know Garrus is alive and I imagine the surprise was quite unwelcome. He also sidesteps the Tali issue, likely because he was upset that she met Shepard on terms that were not entirely his own. He flat out lies about Liara because he probably sees her as too difficult to control or mislead, mainly because she was the one who turned Shepard over to them and likely keeps her ear to the ground for any news of Shepard's return. As for Wrex he knows about his position and assumes being truthful won't have an adverse effect on his plans.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Barquiel wrote...

I never understood why he lied.

Liara never tried to conceal the fact that she wants to kill the SB, TIM must have known about her activities.

But he's the one who sends Shepard to Illium and gave you the intel that points to the Shadow Broker's home base. He knew Shep would discover the truth...

The first part about sending you to Illium is a point I am trying to deal with in my fic.

My best answer to it is that during the Horizon debriefing, TIM tells Shepard that two of the dossiers need him to go to Illium. And he has to seek out Liara in order to help track down Samara and Thane's precise locations.  Shepard calls him out on this, asking if TIM didn't say that Liara was untrustworthy. TIM acknowlegdes this, claiming he lied in order for Shepard to not go chasing off to see her. Shepard asks again why the hell its so importants for TIM that Shepard doesn't meet Liara. TIM's answer is that he did not wish for Shepard to be distracted and unfocused due to the critical nature of the mission, that meeting the "new" Liara would simply cause unessecary grief for Shepard. And thats why he had hoped to avoid that they visited Illium.

[adneate]

I have a hard buying that TIM ever had Shepard's best interests at heart, Shepard was nothing more than a weapon to him. Something that could be used to kill his enemies with greater efficiency than any other. You don't emotionally care for an assault rifle, it's simply a tool that has to be maintained in order to be effective. Shepard's emotions are the same way, his goal would always be to suppress those emotions as much as possible to ensure compliance without it dramatically affecting the effectiveness of the weapon.

It's probably why he stuck someone like Kelly Chambers on the ship in the first place, ensure Shepard was . . . distracted. Further the illusionary properties of the Cerberus SR2.

[Xilizhra]

It's probably why he stuck someone like Kelly Chambers on the ship in the first place, ensure Shepard was . . . distracted. Further the illusionary properties of the Cerberus SR2.

Actually, yes. This is explicitly stated on Cronos Station.

[Batlass8]

Lizardviking wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

I never understood why he lied.

Liara never tried to conceal the fact that she wants to kill the SB, TIM must have known about her activities.

But he's the one who sends Shepard to Illium and gave you the intel that points to the Shadow Broker's home base. He knew Shep would discover the truth...

The first part about sending you to Illium is a point I am trying to deal with in my fic.

My best answer to it is that during the Horizon debriefing, TIM tells Shepard that two of the dossiers need him to go to Illium. And he has to seek out Liara in order to help track down Samara and Thane's precise locations.  Shepard calls him out on this, asking if TIM didn't say that Liara was untrustworthy. TIM acknowlegdes this, claiming he lied in order for Shepard to not go chasing off to see her. Shepard asks again why the hell its so importants for TIM that Shepard doesn't meet Liara. TIM's answer is that he did not wish for Shepard to be distracted and unfocused due to the critical nature of the mission, that meeting the "new" Liara would simply cause unessecary grief for Shepard. And thats why he had hoped to avoid that they visited Illium.

Does TIM tell Shepard to look up Liara?  Because if he doesn't, I would think that it would make more sense for that hostess/tour guide/concierge who shows up to pay the docking fees to be the one to direct Shepard to Liara.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Batlass8 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

I never understood why he lied.

Liara never tried to conceal the fact that she wants to kill the SB, TIM must have known about her activities.

But he's the one who sends Shepard to Illium and gave you the intel that points to the Shadow Broker's home base. He knew Shep would discover the truth...

The first part about sending you to Illium is a point I am trying to deal with in my fic.

My best answer to it is that during the Horizon debriefing, TIM tells Shepard that two of the dossiers need him to go to Illium. And he has to seek out Liara in order to help track down Samara and Thane's precise locations.  Shepard calls him out on this, asking if TIM didn't say that Liara was untrustworthy. TIM acknowlegdes this, claiming he lied in order for Shepard to not go chasing off to see her. Shepard asks again why the hell its so importants for TIM that Shepard doesn't meet Liara. TIM's answer is that he did not wish for Shepard to be distracted and unfocused due to the critical nature of the mission, that meeting the "new" Liara would simply cause unessecary grief for Shepard. And thats why he had hoped to avoid that they visited Illium.

Does TIM tell Shepard to look up Liara?  Because if he doesn't, I would think that it would make more sense for that hostess/tour guide/concierge who shows up to pay the docking fees to be the one to direct Shepard to Liara.

In the game? No, but I am talking about my fic where I try to explain the whole "Why did TIM lie about Liara?" at the start of the game.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

adneate wrote...

I have a hard buying that TIM ever had Shepard's best interests at heart, Shepard was nothing more than a weapon to him. Something that could be used to kill his enemies with greater efficiency than any other. You don't emotionally care for an assault rifle, it's simply a tool that has to be maintained in order to be effective. Shepard's emotions are the same way, his goal would always be to suppress those emotions as much as possible to ensure compliance without it dramatically affecting the effectiveness of the weapon.

It's probably why he stuck someone like Kelly Chambers on the ship in the first place, ensure Shepard was . . . distracted. Further the illusionary properties of the Cerberus SR2.

Shepard is a tool yes, but TIM still wants him to do his job and do it well. As you said, it needs to be maintained, and having Shepard be unfocused could be a detirment to the mission.

[Batlass8]

Lizardviking wrote...

In the game? No, but I am talking about my fic where I try to explain the whole "Why did TIM lie about Liara?" at the start of the game.

Ah! Well, in that case, I throw my support behind the "He's trying to isolate Shepard from non-Cerberus resources/sources of support" theories.  You can win a war by cutting off supply lines... I imagine that the tactics TIM adopts to control Shep are substantially similar.

[DevilBeast]

adneate wrote...

I have a hard buying that TIM ever had Shepard's best interests at heart, Shepard was nothing more than a weapon to him. Something that could be used to kill his enemies with greater efficiency than any other. You don't emotionally care for an assault rifle...

Not unless your name is Zaeed..

[Akernis]

Barquiel wrote...
But he's the one who sends Shepard to Illium and gave you the intel that points to the Shadow Broker's home base. He knew Shep would discover the truth...

I agree with adneate about TIMs motivations, but even if he would prefer Shepard to remain away from Liara the fact that not one but two of the specialists Shepard needs happens to be at Ilium forces his hand. 
Either Shepard can continue his/her mission but sees Liara or he/she stays away but looses two exceptionally good people he/she would very well need to succeed, as such TIM chooses the lesser of two evils and hopes for the best.
It is also Liara that seeks Shepard out (if indirectly) when he/she lands on Ilium rather than TIM that directs Shepard to her.   

But TIM has never been a man to hold a grudge if he could turn a situation to his advantege so when he gets the information that could lead Liara to the Shadow Broker he sees an oppotunity to kill two birds with one stone by removing a major thorn in his side in the form of the SB while at the same time appearing to extend his goodwill to Shepard by helping Liara. 
It then blows up in his face when not only does Liara and Shepard reconcile but when Liara takes over as the Shadow Broker the position is in the hands of one of the (or in our case the) closest person to Shepard.  

Batlass8 wrote...
Does TIM tell Shepard to look up Liara?  Because if he doesn't, I would think that it would make more sense for that hostess/tour guide/concierge who shows up to pay the docking fees to be the one to direct Shepard to Liara.

Corina: welcome to Nos Astra Commander Shepard, we have been instructed to wave all docking and administration fees for your visit. My name is Corina, if you need any information about the area it would be my pleasure to assist you.
Shepard: who instructed you to wave the fees?
Corina: the order came from Liara T'soni who paid all docking fees on your behalf. She also asked that I direct you to speak with her at you convinience, she is near the trading floor.

Modifié par Akernis, 11 juillet 2012 - 12:46 .

[adneate]

Lizardviking wrote...
Shepard is a tool yes, but TIM still wants him to do his job and do it well. As you said, it needs to be maintained, and having Shepard be unfocused could be a detirment to the mission.

For TIM it would be easier to just have Shepard move on or sleep with Kelly, thus further severing all non Cerberus ties. His goal would be to keep Shepard from putting a gun to their head but ensure they are as broken emotionally as possible so that they will come to willingly serve Cerberus and believe in it's ideals. Seeing nothing for themselves outside of the ogranization and it's people. Since he mentions that specifically in ME3 and his disgust that Shepard never really believed in his organization inspite of all he did.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

adneate wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...
Shepard is a tool yes, but TIM still wants him to do his job and do it well. As you said, it needs to be maintained, and having Shepard be unfocused could be a detirment to the mission.

For TIM it would be easier to just have Shepard move on or sleep with Kelly, thus further severing all non Cerberus ties. His goal would be to keep Shepard from putting a gun to their head but ensure they are as broken emotionally as possible so that they will come to willingly serve Cerberus and believe in it's ideals. Seeing nothing for themselves outside of the ogranization and it's people. Since he mentions that specifically in ME3 and his disgust that Shepard never really believed in his organization inspite of all he did.

Indeed.

I should mention that in my fic TIM also in the end also goes all "Two years have passed, people change, including her. Just do your buisness on Illium as fast as possible and get moving. You should stop lingering on her ya know? It's for your own good if you just move on.".

To sum it up:
- TIM knows Shepard has to go to Illium in order to recruit Samara and Thane, he also knows he has to ask Liara for help.
- TIM knows he lied about Liara being untrustworthy, he acknowlegedes this in order to get it out of the way as fast as possible since he knows it was a flimsy lie which illusion would break the second Shepard met the asari.
- TIM states the reason he lied was in order to discourage Shepard to meet up with her, he knew that Liara and Shepard were close and that he did not want Shepard to become distracted in any way due to how much Liara has changed (which true, but he leave out his other motive of wanting to isolate Shepard).
- TIM ends with asking Shepard to not pursue anything with her and simply stay focused on the mission itself. Like in the game itself where he ask "Can I trust you put any past relationship behind you?".

[adneate]

frudi wrote...
@adneate: so how does Dossier: Tali fit into TIM's plan?

There's a limit to how far he can push things, you have to give a little or the whole thing falls apart. If I was to incorporate it TIM manages to convince himself that inspite of her hatred for Cerberus she's innocous enough. Plus he's really arrogant and probably believes on some level he can fool her just as well as he can fool Shepard. He might even believe at that point he's got Shepard on a pretty good leash and can use Shepard to keep Tali in line.

That being said I think Tali's presence has more to do with forum posts than the overarching story.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Wulfram wrote...
Find something that the Control music doesn't make seem ominous.

edit: To be on topic, I tried combining it with the Liara romance scene. Do not do this!

I just did this and ...

[CrimsonN7]

frudi wrote...

Well, Liara is far from immune to jealousy, she can clearly exhibit it on several occasions. I always interpreted this, and the fact that she can get pretty pissed at Shepard for sleeping around, to mean that she doesn't really have a to casual attitude to 'just sex' (meaning without melding, just for physical pleasure). She seems more of a full commitment kind of girl ; at least that's how she approaches her relationship with Shepard, from the very beginning.
Still, doesn't mean she was never curious or never experimented in the past .

I honestly don't care about her relationship and sex history either way and it's something I don't even bother with in my headcanon. I do think it's somewhat more likely, going by my interpretation of her in-game dialogue and behaviour, that she never had sex before Shepard. But I'm not going to chew anyone's head off for suggesting otherwise, I think there's enough ambiguity for different interpretations.

Yep we're on the same wavelenght Frudi, doesn't bother me really, I've read loads of fanfics that either stuck to in game canon lore or deviated a little, enjoyed both kinds, I just see these kinds of stories as the authors Liara so my version will be different anyway. I find it intersesting how others see Liara in their pieces, some are very clever, I just like to keep an open mind about it myself;)



Don't judge me:P

@Nox, no prob, I'm just goofing with ya, enjoy the rest of your hols:D

@Arcayte those pics are hilarious, the Wrex meets Reaper Shep hehe, Wrex I'd be pissed off too:P

@Jade run all you like Liara WILL find you:P

[Batlass8]

adneate wrote...

frudi wrote...
@adneate: so how does Dossier: Tali fit into TIM's plan?

There's a limit to how far he can push things, you have to give a little or the whole thing falls apart. If I was to incorporate it TIM manages to convince himself that inspite of her hatred for Cerberus she's innocous enough. Plus he's really arrogant and probably believes on some level he can fool her just as well as he can fool Shepard. He might even believe at that point he's got Shepard on a pretty good leash and can use Shepard to keep Tali in line.

That being said I think Tali's presence has more to do with forum posts than the overarching story.

Lol, well, maybe that's true, but I've always seen Tali's inclusion on the squad as the carrot TIM offers to Shepard.  Shepard sees an old friend, Shepard wants that friend to join the team, TIM puts off committing, and then Shepard keeps getting systematically destroyed (emotionally) by old friends that don't trust Shepard or won't join the team.  So... maybe TIM offers that dossier fully expecting that Tali won't join the squad and will want to stay with the fleet, and that will keep Shepard closer to Cerberus.  If she does join, it's all right though, because TIM looks like a nice guy for trying to find Shepard people the commander considers trustworthy.

(How to swing this back around to be on-topic....)

Okay, speaking of getting the band back together in ME2... how would you have reacted if it turned out that Archangel was actually Liara.  (Which, I guess would mean that Garrus turned into the information broker?  IDK.)  But given that Liara had to 'toughen up' a bit during the two years that Shepard was dead, I guess it's concievable that she could have decided to--

No, I can't make this work at all.  Liara valued stopping the Reapers too highly to run off and be a vigilante on Omega.  Sorry.  I tried.


Edit: ******-jacks!  An off-topic post on the top of the page!  Here!

Modifié par Batlass8, 11 juillet 2012 - 02:14 .

[Han Shot First]

adneate wrote...

S3Plan wrote...
I never saw Liara as being ashamed of being a pureblood, by the way.

No I don't think she was ashamed of it but like anything that could have caused torment or bullying when young it's clearly uncomfortable for her to talk about. I always got the sense that the mere mention of the word really cuts her, brings up a past that she tries to put behind her.

That is the sense I got as well, though even the word 'pureblood' itself is considered a slur to the Asari. And it is one that Liara has no doubt been called before. With that it mind, it makes sense that Liara would seem uncomfortable even uttering it.

On Illium in ME2 there is an Asari that you can overhear recounting how she went through a period of drug abuse in her life, over the prejudices she faced as a pureblood. Other Asari can also be heard stereotyping them. One says something like, "She's a pureblood. You know how they all are." Those little snippets of background conversation on Illium in ME2, really give the sense of purebloods being a minority that are discriminated against.

But he's the one who sends Shepard to Illium and Cerberus gave you the intel that points to the Shadow Broker's home base. He knew Shep would discover the truth...

As much as I love the Lair of the Shadow Broker DLC, I think that bit of writing wasn't well thought out. Besides being at odds with TIM's lie early in the game, if you play LotSB after the suicide mission (as most people did) and Shepard blew up the Collector Base, it doesn't make sense for TIM to be providing the rogue Lazarus cell with intelligence. Instead of having the Shadow Broker intel come from Cerberus, the email that triggers the 'quest' should have come from Liara.

Having the intel come from Liara also establishes her as having the capabilities to replace the old Shadow Broker, as then you have Liara being the one that both obtains the intelligence on the Shadow Broker, and kills him.