56469 réponses à ce sujet

[cohina]

frudi wrote...

Yeah, this is pretty much my view as well, it just doesn't make sense to me to 'translate' ages between asari and humans. Just thinking about what what defines a human of a certain age, it is impossible to separate the physical and mental aspects and both of these are not going to simultaneously translate properly. For instance, a 40 year old asari may be at a similar stage of physical development as say a 15 year old human, but their mental development would be wholly incomparable.
Consequently, I don't even try thinking how old Liara would be in human years. I find it as pointless as trying to figure out what hairstyle would be the equivalent of Liara's scalp crests

Yep, let's think it for example this way. In ME1 Liara is 106, barely an adult by asari standards, but yet she has already studied Protheans for 50 years and before that done her university studies. So even though some older asari consider her only a child she has already done the ammount of scientific research that would be a life-long project for a human (talking about present day humans, not ME universe humans with 150 year lifespan). So like I said human age and asari age are two completely different things. Can't compare the two of them.

Modifié par cohina, 01 août 2012 - 09:48 .

[lillitheris]

I, I guess unsurprisingly, dealt with the maturation issue too…this is my canon:

“ME4: Unity”: Chapter 22:

Hannah watched the bashful asari with a smile. It was strange to think that the young woman was twice her own age. The little reading she had managed to do, various short primers mostly, had explained that the asari maturation was physically slower than that of humans much in the same way that the salarians' was faster. It would have taken Liara over forty years to reach the level of physical and mental development a human was at the end of their teens, and then even longer to finish the gradual finalizations of mental and emotional development that humans underwent until well into their twenties. At her age, Liara certainly had much, much more experiences and knowledge, but as Hannah observed, her world view and perspective, her…maturity…didn't seem that different from what her own had been [in her early thirties].

Modifié par lillitheris, 01 août 2012 - 09:54 .

[Barquiel]

Arcataye wrote...

Y3Y00 wrote...

Quite frankly, I doubt anyone would've chosen Destroy, had Shepard died in that ending, because it's the only appealing aspect. I mean, what's not to like about the omnipotent, almost omniscient new fancy Shepard?

This is how I see it, destroy is the only choice. I also expected Shepard to die in the end so it didn't have an impact on my choice.
---

I doubt Joker, Legion and EDI would pick "destroy"

I am not sure about Samara and her code (I suppose synthesis cures Ardath-Yakshi too?)

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Alright back again.

frudi wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

But
during the observer quest we see she has no qualms taking out those 5
people, granted they were not exactly saints, and if paragon Shepard
objects she emotionally blackmails him to go along with it.

Actually,
she takes out just one person, Nyxeris. And she is a spy and probable
assassin for the Shadow Broker that would eventually have killed Liara
if Liara hadn't taken her out first.

Hear the start of
the quest, she has a list of 5 suspects which she are ready to kill,
since she presumably wants to keep a low a profile she wants Shepard to
help her narrow down the suspect list and find out who the observer is.
Shepard can object in which case she just casually replies that if
Shepard does not help, she will just kill all 5 of them.

Lizardviking wrote...

Thats
part of it, but what I was interested in was the part where she said
"When you work in shadows, its easy to think you have all the answers."

Sounds to me that she made some quite uncomfortable decisions during her two years.

I
took it that she meant that more in relation to her work as the Shadow
Broker, not so much her years on Illium. If I recall correctly, she
utters that like in relation to TIM, whose position is very much
comparable to the Shadow Broker's, both wielding great power from the
shadows.

That is possible, but I find it more likely that
she refers to her time on Illium because as the SB she had a clear moral
compass in the form of Shepard and the fight against the Reapers. Back
on Illium, she was truly operating alone and hence in the shadows.

I also pondered about subject of discussion while trying to get some sleep, coming to a few conclusions, but I'm just gonna quote some of you folks since you said it better.

frudi wrote...

PMC... bookies and loan-sharks resort to
physical violence because that's pretty much the only effective tool
they have at their disposal. Liara doesn't have to use such crude
methods, she has more refined and effective options available. Doesn't
mean she'd never make a threat of violence, but her usual threats would
probably be about leaking some sensitive information regarding the
uncooperative client.

When she does resort to making physical
threats, I imagine is when she judges that option to be the most
effective. Or maybe when dealing with some really shady or questionable
characters that she thinks might actually deserve it, but I suspect
information threats would usually be more effective with such
characters.
The client we see her threatening sure seemed to me like
he's not exactly a courageous type, looked more like he was about to wet
his pants. .

Liara does indeed have other tools available to her in case a client is out of line which she uses more often, but she does deploy the threat of physical violence if she feels like it will be the easier way to get what she want. I also believe that when push comes to shove, she would follow through with her threat if the client do not heed them, which has happended from time to time over the two years.

Han Shot First wrote...

She'd never murder innocents, but I
also don't think she'd lose sleep over having agents of the Shadow
Broker or other undesirables whacked.

This seems in-character she would try to limit the casualties to only those involved, she would try to avoid harming innocents. The second part of not caring if scumbags gets killed seems to be downright confirmed in ME2 IMO during the observer quest.

And to draw a conclusion about my original question, I won't change her threat from what it is in the actual game.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 01 août 2012 - 10:00 .

[Theodoro]

@TheDonk:

Thank you for reading and giving your thoughts on my latest story, and don't worry about this being late at all! I couldn't catch up with things here for a long time myself and I feel like I still am.

I do think what you're trying to say is that you did not understand the part in the water well, and the scene felt off to you in some way because you were confused. I am surprised that you do since I haven't written anything really complicated there. It's lamentable that you didn't because honestly, I think this was my personal favorite part, getting to explore just how Liara felt within her element in the water and how she explored the lake with Shepard, and it was a joy to write altogether.

Overall, because of the time and effort spent on this story, it is my personal favorite, so I'm kind of bummed out to hear that you didn't like it as much but I understand you. I don't think this is something that can be really fixed, though, because reading that part again, at least for me personally, I get an impression of what's happening. But maybe that's just me. I hope at least that you enjoyed other parts of this story.

[Mavqt]

Arcataye wrote...
Also, go fill out the new survey of the Extended Cut. Better than the BSN surveys as it looks like Hudson and others will actually read the results like last time.

It's hard to answer some of the questions without having to give explanations. :C:C:C:C

"Would the indoctrination theory be a better explanation for the end than the EC?
Choose one of the following answers"

Could have been, if they hinted at it earlier. In example. In Me2 After boarding the Reaper.

So I just picked no instead.

Modifié par mavqt, 01 août 2012 - 10:27 .

[Ravii]

Arcataye wrote...

Also, go fill out the new survey of the Extended Cut. Better than the BSN surveys as it looks like Hudson and others will actually read the results like last time.

Nice. Just did the survey but as mavqt said it was sometimes hard to choose because there was no option to explain it and write it down.

[Arcataye]

Barquiel wrote...
I doubt Joker, Legion and EDI would pick "destroy"
I am not sure about Samara and her code (I suppose synthesis cures Ardath-Yakshi too?)

Watch the video then.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

I know this is off-topic but I am shocked to see John Dombrow, the guy who wrote the best part of ME3, also did Thessia, the worst main-plot mission (aside from the battle for Earth) of the franchise.

Link.

[lillitheris]

Arcataye wrote...

Barquiel wrote...
I doubt Joker, Legion and EDI would pick "destroy"
I am not sure about Samara and her code (I suppose synthesis cures Ardath-Yakshi too?)

Watch the video then.

The video is a little out of context, I don’t find it compelling in the case of those three. I think they would likely lean toward Control…although at the same time, I think they would accept Destroy.

[Arcataye]

lillitheris wrote...

Arcataye wrote...

Barquiel wrote...
I doubt Joker, Legion and EDI would pick "destroy"
I am not sure about Samara and her code (I suppose synthesis cures Ardath-Yakshi too?)

Watch the video then.

The video is a little out of context, I don’t find it compelling in the case of those three. I think they would likely lean toward Control…although at the same time, I think they would accept Destroy.

For Joker there is not much, for Legion there is a lot of and for EDI it's quite clear.

"I would become loyal to the Reapers, I would rather become nonfunctional than help them."
"The Reapers must be defeated, not because they threaten death, but because the threat of death makes us die inside. It is the right of sapients to live freely and securely. That is worth nonfunctionality."

Modifié par Arcataye, 01 août 2012 - 11:33 .

[Batlass8]

@lillitheris: I don't think I've mentioned this before, but I really admire the way you've created a detailed lore for your ME universe. The thought you've given to everything is wicked impressive! (Also, the 'Introduction to Asari' makes me laugh in some places. I like 'their' interpretation of 'us.')

[lillitheris]

Arcataye wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Arcataye wrote...

Barquiel wrote...
I doubt Joker, Legion and EDI would pick "destroy"
I am not sure about Samara and her code (I suppose synthesis cures Ardath-Yakshi too?)

Watch the video then.

The video is a little out of context, I don’t find it compelling in the case of those three. I think they would likely lean toward Control…although at the same time, I think they would accept Destroy.

For Joker there is not much, for Legion there is a lot of and for EDI it's quite clear.

"I would become loyal to the Reapers, I would rather become nonfunctional than help them."
"The Reapers must be defeated, not because they threaten death, but because the threat of death makes us die inside. It is the right of sapients to live freely and securely. That is worth nonfunctionality."

You’re assuming survival would be her only motivation to choose Control. (And the first sentence is completely out of context.)

[Arcataye]

lillitheris wrote...

You’re assuming survival would be her only motivation to choose Control. (And the first sentence is completely out of context.)

Wasn't this about Destroy, not Control?
But whatever, you're totally right and you win.

Modifié par Arcataye, 01 août 2012 - 11:44 .

[Barquiel]

Arcataye wrote...

Barquiel wrote...
I doubt Joker, Legion and EDI would pick "destroy"
I am not sure about Samara and her code (I suppose synthesis cures Ardath-Yakshi too?)

Watch the video then.

I'll watch it later.

But love makes people do stupid things (...for example merging Organics and Synthetics )

[lillitheris]

Arcataye wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

You’re assuming survival would be her only motivation to choose Control. (And the first sentence is completely out of context.)

Wasn't this about Destroy, not Control?
But whatever, you're totally right and you win.

You’re right, I should have said ‘reason to choose something other than Destroy‘. I didn’t mean to offend… I don’t really disagree with the assessment that they would be OK with Destroy, I just don’t find that video to be an open-and-shut case for the argument.

But perhaps it’s best to move away from the ending discussions again.

[lillitheris]

Batlass8 wrote...

@lillitheris: I don't think I've mentioned this before, but I really admire the way you've created a detailed lore for your ME universe. The thought you've given to everything is wicked impressive! (Also, the 'Introduction to Asari' makes me laugh in some places. I like 'their' interpretation of 'us.')

Thank you I like writing the lore, and I’m glad you’re enjoying it!

[TheDonk95]

Theodoro wrote...

@TheDonk:

Thank you for reading and giving your thoughts on my latest story, and don't worry about this being late at all! I couldn't catch up with things here for a long time myself and I feel like I still am.

I do think what you're trying to say is that you did not understand the part in the water well, and the scene felt off to you in some way because you were confused. I am surprised that you do since I haven't written anything really complicated there. It's lamentable that you didn't because honestly, I think this was my personal favorite part, getting to explore just how Liara felt within her element in the water and how she explored the lake with Shepard, and it was a joy to write altogether.

Overall, because of the time and effort spent on this story, it is my personal favorite, so I'm kind of bummed out to hear that you didn't like it as much but I understand you. I don't think this is something that can be really fixed, though, because reading that part again, at least for me personally, I get an impression of what's happening. But maybe that's just me. I hope at least that you enjoyed other parts of this story.

Aww man I'm sorry I bummed you. As I said, the story is incredible, as all your other stories are, I really enjoyed reading it and it made me feel good, it's just that this praticular part of the story was a bit confusing and hard-to-understand for me, it doesn't take from the excellence of the story. It was incredible and you should be proud of your amazing writing skill. But I'm sorry I kind of disappointed you with my opinion about the story

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

frudi wrote...
I would have suggested it would depend on how one interprets what she means by 'working in the shadows', but I just watched the scene and the word she actually uses is 'secret', not 'shadows'. The dialogue then continues:
(Liara: "When you work in secret, it's tempting to believe you have all the answers.")
Shepard: "You're not him (meaning TIM). You'd never be."
Liara: "If it could have saved Thessia? I don't know."

It may be just my interpretation, but to me her lines make much more sense if she is referring to her Shadow Broker work, not her days as just an insignificant local info broker.

That the word is secrets does not change the meaning of the line for me.

And really, she was "alone" as the SB for like 6 months (+ how long time span there is between LOTSB and Arrival) or something? And from what I remember on what she said on Mars, she still spent quite a bit of that time at the prothean archives, and as I said, she had a greater moral purpose as the SB to keep her in line. Unlike on Illium where she truly did work alone and in secret.

For me, the dialog makes no sense if it refers to her time as the SB. If it refers to her time on Illium, it shows she is aware that she were willing to do things that she was not proud of, and reflecting over that if she was willing to go that far to sate her own thirst for revenge, how far would she have gone to save Thessia?

[Promises]

We need more Liara in this thread. So here i am going to make a statement and read your reactions.

We should not have gotten these stupid kid-forest-shadows-fire nightmares but we should have had Liara dreams! More romantic cinematography! (for example this fic as a dream lost in a wonder - theodosius)


-ruby

Modifié par Promises, 01 août 2012 - 01:52 .

[Akernis]

frudi wrote...

Lizardviking: you previously wrote

Back on Illium, she was truly operating alone and hence in the shadows.

Which I could see making sense if you choose to interpret 'working in shadows' to mean working alone. However, it turns out she never referred to working in shadows (alone by your interpretation), but to working in secret. Therefore it doesn't matter how much time she spent alone as the Shadow Broker, or alone on Illium before that, as that's simply not what she's talking about.

And for working in secret - that's something she does as the Shadow Broker, in fact it's one of the crucial aspects of the job. On the other hand, back on Illium she was not being secretive about her work at all, she was actually well known as one of the most prominent and respected information brokers. To me it doesn't make any sense that she would refer to those years on Illium as 'working in secret'.

As for what she actually meant in that dialogue, here's my take on it...
She's drawing parallels between her position as SB and TIM - both work in secret; both through their respective organisations wield an awesome amount of power, enough to shape events on a galactic scale; both are in a position where they can (ab)use that power for highly questionable purposes and motives; both might end up doing that despite their best intentions, even if they believe they are trying to do good. Liara wonders if she could ever fall as far as TIM did and while Shepard tries to convince her that she is nothing like him, she is not quite so sure. She still wonders what if... what if the stakes had been high enough, what if she could have saved Thessia - would she have gone as far as TIM for that?

Agreed, that was my take on it as well.

[sharkboy421]

Lizardviking wrote...

I know this is off-topic but I am shocked to see John Dombrow, the guy who wrote the best part of ME3, also did Thessia, the worst main-plot mission (aside from the battle for Earth) of the franchise.

Link.

Huh that is somewhat suprising.  Well no one can be perfect all the time.  But I'd be willing to chalk it up things were being rushed and with Javik being made dlc, that really messed with the flow of the mission.

[Han Shot First]

Akernis wrote...

frudi wrote...

Lizardviking: you previously wrote

Back on Illium, she was truly operating alone and hence in the shadows.

Which I could see making sense if you choose to interpret 'working in shadows' to mean working alone. However, it turns out she never referred to working in shadows (alone by your interpretation), but to working in secret. Therefore it doesn't matter how much time she spent alone as the Shadow Broker, or alone on Illium before that, as that's simply not what she's talking about.

And for working in secret - that's something she does as the Shadow Broker, in fact it's one of the crucial aspects of the job. On the other hand, back on Illium she was not being secretive about her work at all, she was actually well known as one of the most prominent and respected information brokers. To me it doesn't make any sense that she would refer to those years on Illium as 'working in secret'.

As for what she actually meant in that dialogue, here's my take on it...
She's drawing parallels between her position as SB and TIM - both work in secret; both through their respective organisations wield an awesome amount of power, enough to shape events on a galactic scale; both are in a position where they can (ab)use that power for highly questionable purposes and motives; both might end up doing that despite their best intentions, even if they believe they are trying to do good. Liara wonders if she could ever fall as far as TIM did and while Shepard tries to convince her that she is nothing like him, she is not quite so sure. She still wonders what if... what if the stakes had been high enough, what if she could have saved Thessia - would she have gone as far as TIM for that?

Agreed, that was my take on it as well.

Mine as well.

In Mass Effect 2 there is a character that make's reference to 'Liara's people.' I can't recall if it is the greeter on Illium of it is mentioned in one of those emails, where people were able to get in touch with Shepard thanks to Liara. But either way it implies that Liara's operation was more than just herself and Nyxeris. As such I don't believe the 'working in the shadows' dialogue was intended to imply that she had worked alone on Illium.

Pmc wrote...

Han Shot First - Bookies and loan sharks will kill a non-paying client as an example to their other clients. And while Liara is an information broker, it must be closer to that side of the track then say a loan agent since she uses the threat of bodily harm ... or death ... to get her payment.

They'll only use murder as the last resort however, when all attempts at collection have failed. At that point they are acknowledging an inability to collect the debt and are trying to send a message to other people, about the consequences of not honoring your debts. There would be an escalation of force involved with threats coming first, and then perhaps physical violence, and only last would be murder.

I think Liara was still very much in the initial collection phase and was hoping threats would be enough to get him to cough up what she was owed. I don't think she was actively planning to flay anyone at that point.

As an information broker I would imagine Liara's next step would be blackmail, if he has any secrets he wouldn't want public. If that failed or wasn't an option sending a merc to rough smack him around a little bit would probably be next.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 01 août 2012 - 04:52 .