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[N172]

Shep+LI marriage whould have been perfect for the citadel DLC, first the marriage and afterwards the party.

[Bardox9]

Shep+LI marriage whould have been perfect for the citadel DLC, first the marriage and afterwards the party.

If that had been part of the Citadel dlc I would have bought it. Hmmm... What exactly goes into becoming a "Bond-Mate"? How would that scene play out?

[Barquiel]

The only information regarding the asari bondmate ceremony that we've received thus far has been from Samara's Shadow Broker dossier (iirc). It details that Samara was forced to relinquish her possessions when she became a Justicar, among them a bond ceremony gown and a bond ceremony bracelet.

[Undead Han]

It is possible that there could be different traditions as well, since there are at least two major religions that have survived into 23rd Century. So far most of the major Asari characters we've run into in the games appear to belong to the monotheistic Athame cult, but interestingly worshipers of Athame are actually a minority among Asari. The dominant religion according to the lore is Siari, a pantheistic faith that essentially sees the universe itself as divine, with the 'spirtual energy' of the deceased dispersing into the universe and being used to create new life. It is possible that the info from Samara's Shadow Broker dossier pertains only to Athamists, and that Siarists could have different bonding traditions.

 

Sort of related...

 

Hopefully the Asari squadmate in the next game will come from a Siari background. Siari has gotten a lot less exposition than the Athame cult, with its only mention being in the codex thus far.

 

To get the discussion back to Liara, how theistic do you view the character?

 

Her dialogue implies an Athamist background, but I didn't think it was clear exactly how much faith she had in it's teachings. Like many Asari she frequently invokes the goddess in everyday speech, but it's not clear if these are genuine expressions of faith, or just the Asari equivalent of 'Oh my god." Human atheists also frequently invoke god in every day speech because these are cultural norms. A person exclaiming "Jesus Christ!" after stubbing a toe is not necessarily a Christian for example, or even a believer in any god. Some religious expressions become cultural norms and are expressed without thinking.

 

She seems disturbed by the implication that Protheans were mistaken for Athame and other figures from Athamist religious texts, influencing Asari religious beliefs, but it also isn't clear whether her discomfort was rooted in Asari history being overturned, or a religious belief being challenged. 

 

So what was your take? Is Liara a praticing Athamist, and if so, was her shock on Thessia intellectually based or religiously based?

[olnorton]

So what was your take? Is Liara a praticing Athamist, and if so, was her shock on Thessia intellectually based or religiously based?

I think she is probably a small a Athamist. She didn't seem to treat the image of the Goddess with any reverence.
And I think her discomfort is more on a personal level.
She has spent her life trying to unravel a mystery, be taken seriously for her findings & prove she is not a child.
Maybe even move out of the shadow of her famous mother.
Only to find that everything she had ever uncovered, and was ever likely to, was already known to Benezia.

And I liked your post for being the first on this page for mentioning Liara's name.
I was expecting a modbot to come along any minute & delete the thread for off topic.

[Wulfram]

I asked Liara's writer (in ME3) about this on Twitter once

"Liara doesn't follow the Athame religion, right?"
"Nope."
https://twitter.com/...138455535005696

It's possible that "the Goddess" is an expression compatible with Siari too, referring to the divine spirit of the universe or something.

I've theorised that "Embrace Eternity" is a Siari expression. Certainly the longer form spoken by Shiala seems to be very much an expression of Siari philosophy/mysticism

"Reach out to grasp the threads that bind us, one to another. Every action sends ripples across the galaxy. Every idea must touch another mind to live. Each emotion must mark another's spirit. We are all connected. Every living being united in a single glorious existence. Open yourself to the universe. Embrace eternity!"

One might also suggest that Liara's reverent attitude towards Asari sex in ME1 also reflects Siari philosophy, but I'm probably stretching there.

(I take from Liara's dialogue that she already considers a romanced Shepard her bondmate by the end of ME3. Maybe the ceremony referenced in Samara's dossier is more of a recognition and celebration of something that already exists, rather than necessarily the beginning of something)

[PresidentVorchaMasterBaits]

GRRAAAAAAGH!! SHEPARD SHOULD HAVE WRITTEN LOVE POEM FOR LIARA! JUST LIKE THIS ONE!!!! IT'S HOW VORCHA WON HEART OF ASARI GODDESS!!!!

[Undead Han]

I asked Liara's writer (in ME3) about this on Twitter once

"Liara doesn't follow the Athame religion, right?"
"Nope."
https://twitter.com/...138455535005696

It's possible that "the Goddess" is an expression compatible with Siari too, referring to the divine spirit of the universe or something.

I've theorised that "Embrace Eternity" is a Siari expression. Certainly the longer form spoken by Shiala seems to be very much an expression of Siari philosophy/mysticism

"Reach out to grasp the threads that bind us, one to another. Every action sends ripples across the galaxy. Every idea must touch another mind to live. Each emotion must mark another's spirit. We are all connected. Every living being united in a single glorious existence. Open yourself to the universe. Embrace eternity!"

One might also suggest that Liara's reverent attitude towards Asari sex in ME1 also reflects Siari philosophy, but I'm probably stretching there.

(I take from Liara's dialogue that she already considers a romanced Shepard her bondmate by the end of ME3. Maybe the ceremony referenced in Samara's dossier is more of a recognition and celebration of something that already exists, rather than necessarily the beginning of something)

 

Interesting, thanks!

 

I never knew her writer ever weighed in on the character's religious affiliation. Benezia was said to be a spiritual leader among the Asari, and her last words imply that there was some genuine belief in the Athame doctrine...but that of course didn't mean that Liara was necessarily on the same page. Particularly so considering they had been estranged for years by the start of ME1. 

 

You make some good points about the Goddess potentially being compatible with Siari beliefs, and Asari attitudes (or at least Liara and Sha'ira's) towards sex seeming to be rooted in Siari philosophy. Maybe it is a mistake to view the Athame cult and Siari philosophy as being mutually exclusive. I hadn't considered that there might be some syncretism in Asari religious philosophy.

[Dani86]

I don't think that Benezia or Liara followed the Athame religion. Benezia says as she dies 'they always said there would be a light' but I don't think that means that she believed in the Goddess. It is just as likely that it is thought that one sees a light before becoming one with the universe. Seeing as how Benezia was one of the matriarchs who knows that the Athame temple was a sham and that it was really a prothean beacon, I would tend to believe that Benezia did not put too much credence in a literal goddess. When Liara is in the shuttle before the Thessia mission, she says something like 'my mother took me to the temple when I was a child. I thought it was just a history lesson but it has secret gov funding so there was likely another reason for my mother going there.' Liara does not say that it was a religious lesson or going to worship which it would be if either believed in Athame but rather just a history/cultural lesson. As for the connection between 'embracing eternity' and Siari, I think it is in the codex somewhere that Siari  really took off once the asari left Thessia, met other races and learned that they could mate with other races. It led them to believe that everyone is basically the same and 'all are one'. 

[von uber]

It's beyond ridiculous that no asari EVER saw the similarities between the statues and a prothean, especially Liara.

[Vigilance97]

It's beyond ridiculous that no asari EVER saw the similarities between the statues and a prothean, especially Liara.

Well, they didn't know what the protheans really looked like. The "prothean" statues on Ilos and elsewhere don't look anything like Javik, after all(because they are from the cycle before the protheans).

 

Or do you mean in ME3?

[von uber]

Well it stretches credibility that given the amount of junk the protheans left behind - you can't seem to move for not hitting a prothean artifact - there wasn't a single image of what they looked like.
Therefore for the asari - the most advanced civilisation in the galaxy - to not notice a resemblance is farcical.

I suspect it's done for plot reasons but like many other things on mass effect it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

[N172]

It's beyond ridiculous that no asari EVER saw the similarities between the statues and a prothean, especially Liara.

Since the whole Athame thing is a monotheistic religion it makes perfect sense, our world is filled with proof that there is no almighty and benevolent being, but the majority believe it anyway and reacts with aggression if you mention those facts.
Since the asari are human-alike Liaras hostility when confronted with the fact "Athame was just a prothean" makes perfect sense.

[von uber]

Since the whole Athame thing is a monotheistic religion it makes perfect sense, our world is filled with proof that there is no almighty and benevolent being, but the majority believe it anyway and reacts with aggression if you mention those facts.
Since the asari are human-alike Liaras hostility when confronted with the fact "Athame was just a prothean" makes perfect sense.

 

Disagree. plenty of people poke holes in monotheistic religion now, including its origins. Can you imagine Aethyta NOT mentioning that the Goddess looks like a Prothean? Of course she would!

[Undead Han]

I don't think that Benezia or Liara followed the Athame religion. Benezia says as she dies 'they always said there would be a light' but I don't think that means that she believed in the Goddess. It is just as likely that it is thought that one sees a light before becoming one with the universe. Seeing as how Benezia was one of the matriarchs who knows that the Athame temple was a sham and that it was really a prothean beacon, I would tend to believe that Benezia did not put too much credence in a literal goddess. When Liara is in the shuttle before the Thessia mission, she says something like 'my mother took me to the temple when I was a child. I thought it was just a history lesson but it has secret gov funding so there was likely another reason for my mother going there.' Liara does not say that it was a religious lesson or going to worship which it would be if either believed in Athame but rather just a history/cultural lesson. As for the connection between 'embracing eternity' and Siari, I think it is in the codex somewhere that Siari  really took off once the asari left Thessia, met other races and learned that they could mate with other races. It led them to believe that everyone is basically the same and 'all are one'. 

 

To me it seemed that Benezia was a believer, in that her delivery of that line expresses shock or disappointment. It seemed like she was expecting a light and was dismayed that her final moments didn't match her expectations. Benezia also has a background as some sort of religious leader among the Asari, according to her codex entry.

 

Even though it later turns out that she was working on the Prothean data cache at the Athame temple, it doesn't necessarily rule out the possibility that she was also a genuine believer in Athame. If we look at our own history for examples of humans being mistaken for deities by their fellow humans, these people are always mistaken for deities that were already worshiped, rather than as new gods. Hernan Cortes for example, may have been mistaken for the existing Aztec god Quetzalcoatl. The codex never delves into when exactly the Asari started worshiping Athame, but I would think it would have been more likely that the Asari were worshiping her before first contact was made with the Protheans. The relics in the temple seem to support that as well, since the older portrayals of the goddess looks like an Asari rather than a Prothean. Rather than the Athame cult being created by Prothean visitors, the Asari mistook a Prothean for a god they already worshiped. If that is the case, it would also jive with Benezia still being a believer in Athame despite knowledge of Prothean contact with the ancient Asari.

[Dani86]

 

 

To me it seemed that Benezia was a believer, in that her delivery of that line expresses shock or disappointment. It seemed like she was expecting a light and was dismayed that her final moments didn't match her expectations. Benezia also has a background as some sort of religious leader among the Asari, according to her codex entry.

 

Even though it later turns out that she was working on the Prothean data cache at the Athame temple, it doesn't necessarily rule out the possibility that she was also a genuine believer in Athame. If we look at our own history for examples of humans being mistaken for deities by their fellow humans, these people are always mistaken for deities that were already worshiped, rather than as new gods. Hernan Cortes for example, may have been mistaken for the existing Aztec god Quetzalcoatl. The codex never delves into when exactly the Asari started worshiping Athame, but I would think it would have been more likely that the Asari were worshiping her before first contact was made with the Protheans. The relics in the temple seem to support that as well, since the older portrayals of the goddess looks like an Asari rather than a Prothean. Rather than the Athame cult being created by Prothean visitors, the Asari mistook a Prothean for a god they already worshiped. If that is the case, it would also jive with Benezia still being a believer in Athame despite knowledge of Prothean contact with the ancient Asari.

 

 

I don't think we will ever know for sure but in my mind, Benezia and Liara were followers of siari (which is a religion) if anything. As I said previously, maybe the believers of siara thought that one sees a light before their spiritual energy is returned to the universal consciousness. That line does not tell us that Benezia believed in the Goddess instead of siari. The fact that it is, in Liara's time, a very minority religion (compared to siari), Shiala 'followed at her feet' (Benezia's) learning about religion and philosophy for hundreds of years and she believed in siari (as indicated by her 'we are all one' line above), Benezia knew the shrine was a sham, Benezia believed in the peaceful co-existence between races (a natural belief if one follows siara which literally means 'all is one') and Liara saw her mother taking her to the temple as a child as a 'history' lesson and not some sort of pilgrimage or religious devotion leads me to believe that they were not followers of Athame. I think the only asari who was a follower of Athame was Samara with her code developed in the time when goddess-worship was common. I think when Samara said 'may you find peace in the embrace of the goddess' as she crushed someone's windpipe, she meant it.

 

As for whether Athame was literally a prothean or the asari turned the prothean that visited into their already-existing goddess, we just don't know. Javik seems to think that Athame was in reality, a Prothean, but how would he know which came first? 

[Dani86]

It's beyond ridiculous that no asari EVER saw the similarities between the statues and a prothean, especially Liara.

 

People tend to make their deities in their own image and ignore facts when it doesn't fit in with their religious beliefs. Take a human example. If Jesus Christ truly existed, he was a Jewish guy from the middle-east, right near Africa, and yet he has consistently been depicted as a blue-eyed blond.  

[JJ Likeaprayer]

Tho' Kaidan is my romance,and I absolutely love every one of my party members...but I love Liara the most,and here's why: I've always loved her as a little sister like character,and she has always been there for Shepard...but my heart was touched forever by Liara when before the final fight in ME3, (if you talk to her)she takes you into this starry vision thingy,then she grabs your arm and lean her head on your shoulder...that was the moment I was touched forever by her innocence and her good heart. 

[Dani86]

Tho' Kaidan is my romance,and I absolutely love every one of my party members...but I love Liara the most,and here's why: I've always loved her as a little sister like character,and she has always been there for Shepard...but my heart was touched forever by Liara when before the final fight in ME3, (if you talk to her)she takes you into this starry vision thingy,then she grabs your arm and lean her head on your shoulder...that was the moment I was touched forever by her innocence and her good heart. 

 

I agree. Whether you romance Liara or not, this was one of the most touching moments in the game. 

[themikefest]

It's beyond ridiculous that no asari EVER saw the similarities between the statues and a prothean, especially Liara.

In ME1, its shown that humans are turned into husks. The husks obviously resemble human

 

In ME2, Shepard and squad learn the collectors are prothean, or were at one time.

 

Before the events of ME2, in the redemption comic, Liara sees collectors. After the broker is killed she makes the comment that collectors use to be protheans.

 

In ME3, on Menae, James will make the comment that those things look like turians. Liara will make the comment if Garrus is not in ME3

 

If the monastery mission is completed before Thessia, Liara will make the comment of what have the reapers done to my people. If she's not taken on the mission, one of the other squadmates will make a comment. Falere makes a comment about being turn into those things.

 

On Thessia, if the monastery mission hasn't been completed, Liara will make the comment about that thing looked like one of my people. If Javik is not recruited, Liara will even make the comment is that a prothean when confronting the VI.

 

If Javik isn't recruited, why can't Shepard make a comment about the plaque or bust looking similiar to a collector. Even Tali or Garrus could make the comment since they were on the Collector ship with Shepard. Liara may even notice a similarity and make a comment. Not sure about Kaidan/Ashley, who saw the collectors on Horizon, knew that they were  Prothean. The same with James.

 

It would make for some good dialogue if that was to of been put in the game. But it would only work with a save import.

 

I would guess, since the game is for new players, putting that in would confuse the player since they have no idea what the characters are talking about.

[von uber]

Probably - but my point was more why no-one in the entirety of asari society - over thousands of years - noticed.

[themikefest]

Maybe they did and didn't want to say anything or someone higher up told them to remain quiet.

[Silvery]

I actually just replayed Mass Effect 1 on my Xbox One a few weeks ago and it is very stark when you compare Liara in 1 to Mass Effect 2 and then 3. I know how much she changed personality wise but I grasped it a lot more replaying. I forgot how cute, awkward and shy she used to be. 

 

 

[Undead Han]

I'm more of a fan of ME2/ME3 Liara than her ME1 version. 

 

But then I've never been a fan of the whole shy, awkward, and virginal (ugh!) character type that Bioware frequently trots out as nerdbait. I was cool with Tali assuming that role from ME2 onwards. 

[Wulfram]

I mostly like ME1 and ME3 Liara, personally