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[Pockles]

PMC65 wrote...

Pockles wrote...


And what about having compassion for the billions of other lives on Earth, or Thessia? Do they mean nothing in comparison to someone who you care about? Are their relationships with others somehow less important because you don't know them?

You don't have to be a hero to have principles.

Ah yes, "principles" ... that word that is so easily used sitting in a soft chair. I had very high opinions of myself in my teens. Then I started participating in a thing called LIFE. I have seen me do wonderful things and I've seen me do some awful things. My ego is now at a nice comfortable 5 on a scale from 1 - 10.

On paper or on this board ... oh, yes! I will give up all that I love to save everyone else. That is arm chair talk. What I would really do in life? I have no clue until I am actually in that moment. I hope for the best.  

I know what it feels like, to be certain you're about to die. Gave me a new appreciation for life. It's what I base this particular principle of mine on.

I believe I asked you some questions, by the way. They weren't rhetorical.

[PMC65]

Pockles wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

Pockles wrote...


And what about having compassion for the billions of other lives on Earth, or Thessia? Do they mean nothing in comparison to someone who you care about? Are their relationships with others somehow less important because you don't know them?

You don't have to be a hero to have principles.

Ah yes, "principles" ... that word that is so easily used sitting in a soft chair. I had very high opinions of myself in my teens. Then I started participating in a thing called LIFE. I have seen me do wonderful things and I've seen me do some awful things. My ego is now at a nice comfortable 5 on a scale from 1 - 10.

On paper or on this board ... oh, yes! I will give up all that I love to save everyone else. That is arm chair talk. What I would really do in life? I have no clue until I am actually in that moment. I hope for the best.  

I know what it feels like, to be certain you're about to die. Gave me a new appreciation for life. It's what I base this particular principle of mine on.

I believe I asked you some questions, by the way. They weren't rhetorical.

Many of us have been close to death and have stories to tell ... some more than others.

Do I love my own family/friends/lovers over strangers? Yes. I don't love the guy sitting on the bus next to me ... I don't know him. Does that mean that in his life he is less than me? No. We are all important in our own circles.

Or broken down:

And what about having compassion for the billions of other lives on Earth, or Thessia? I do not wish faceless people harm but I also do not "feel" for them like my own. "Billions of other lives" is just an empty term. To see people, talk to them ... I need connection. Not "Big Blue Marble".

Do they mean nothing in comparison to someone who you care about? No, they don't. Do strangers mean more to you than a loved one? Or are they equal to your loved one in your life? So a stranger and your parent is about to get hit and you can only save one sooooo you would just as soon flip a coin? They are equal to you, right?

Are their relationships with others somehow less important because you don't know them? It is less important in my life but it is important in theirs. I'm not invested in relationships outside of my own. I don't want to be a Gladys Kravitz in this life, thanks. 

I think your questions are a little off ... The question is just simply could you let one of your own die in place of many? And as I said earlier ... "On paper or on this board ... oh, yes! I will give up all that I love to save everyone else. That is arm chair talk. What I would really do in life? I have no clue until I am actually in that moment. I hope for the best."

Now, do you go on record as saying you would throw your child in the wind for those 100 other children? Until it happens you don't really know what you would do. If you've already done it I'm so sorry for you. Survivor's guilt is a real ****. I know.

[PMC65]

Now to get back on topic ....




Liara T'Soni on Ilium 2 by ~StarkillerofLegion on deviantART

[karmensandiego]

PMC65 wrote...

Now to get back on topic ....

Hey, I love this discussion we're all having!  And I think its very on topic for a Liara Loving thread!  It all started with whether or not we'd save Liara if it meant sacrificing other innocents.
 
*protectively hugs thread*

DON'T SHUT US DOWN MODS, ITS ON TOPIC, I SWEAR!!!! 



Edit to add:  We totally had a discussion like this in my Medical Ethics class that went on for a week!  Do you sacrifice one to save five, what about to save 100...  It was a hard discussion and I think most of the class came down on the side of - STOP BUGGING ME, ITS TOO HARD TO DECIDE.  Of course this discussion was without the hot blue alien chick and therefore woefully less important then this one...

Modifié par karmensandiego, 17 septembre 2011 - 07:40 .

[pf17456]

Well I think I'd be a little pissed if I was forced to make a choice like that in game. Save Liara at the cost of millions I'd be curious how she'd react to that but my guess is that she'd ve quite angry with me for doing so and I wonder how her survivor guilt would effect their relationship. Sacrificing Liara I think would make Shepard suicidal.
I do think that if Hagalaz and Thessia were under attack at the same time Shepard would choose to go to Hagalaz first.
As far as the extended debate in concerned I'd take care of my children first and then seek to help others and I don't even consider that to be either a moral or ethical issue. That's just the way it is, like patterned behavior, you think of your kids first simply because you've parented them, 5,10, 20 years of that and looking out for your kids first is reflexive.

[Red Son Rising]

karmensandiego wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

Now to get back on topic ....

Hey, I love this discussion we're all having!  And I think its very on topic for a Liara Loving thread!  It all started with whether or not we'd save Liara if it meant sacrificing other innocents.
 
*protectively hugs thread*

DON'T SHUT US DOWN MODS, ITS ON TOPIC, I SWEAR!!!! 



Edit to add:  We totally had a discussion like this in my Medical Ethics class that went on for a week!  Do you sacrifice one to save five, what about to save 100...  It was a hard discussion and I think most of the class came down on the side of - STOP BUGGING ME, ITS TOO HARD TO DECIDE.  Of course this discussion was without the hot blue alien chick and therefore woefully less important then this one...

it doesnt take principles to make tough decisions; all it takes are ishtty circumstances w/ harsh consequences and no good answers. i dont think its reasonable to expect an individual to sacrafice a loved one for the greater good: hope and pray that they make the "right" choice

[imo] if sacrafice is necessary its better to lose a little than lose it all. that said, my shepard will choose liara no matter the cost. without liara there would be no happy days filled w lil blue babies, no more midnight rendezvous before climactic battles and suicide missions

in short, without liara my shep might not have the will to save the world

[Robhuzz]

PMC65 wrote...

Robhuzz wrote...

*snip*

Only console commands I ever used are flycam

I've seen some cool pics / vids regarding flycam. Since I'm a big dummy ... is this is a program? Where do you find it?

Activate the console, the mass effect wikia can show you how.

press ` while in game and type toggleflycam to turn flycam on. Type it again to turn off. It's that simple. Though it will mess up any cutscenes you're currently watching. Toggling it off again will not revert the camera back to Shep's eyelevel. It will instead stick at the same position for the remainder of the scene.

[Korkki]

Red Son Rising wrote...

karmensandiego wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

Now to get back on topic ....

Hey, I love this discussion we're all having!  And I think its very on topic for a Liara Loving thread!  It all started with whether or not we'd save Liara if it meant sacrificing other innocents.
 
*protectively hugs thread*

DON'T SHUT US DOWN MODS, ITS ON TOPIC, I SWEAR!!!! 



Edit to add:  We totally had a discussion like this in my Medical Ethics class that went on for a week!  Do you sacrifice one to save five, what about to save 100...  It was a hard discussion and I think most of the class came down on the side of - STOP BUGGING ME, ITS TOO HARD TO DECIDE.  Of course this discussion was without the hot blue alien chick and therefore woefully less important then this one...

it doesnt take principles to make tough decisions; all it takes are ishtty circumstances w/ harsh consequences and no good answers. i dont think its reasonable to expect an individual to sacrafice a loved one for the greater good: hope and pray that they make the "right" choice

[imo] if sacrafice is necessary its better to lose a little than lose it all. that said, my shepard will choose liara no matter the cost. without liara there would be no happy days filled w lil blue babies, no more midnight rendezvous before climactic battles and suicide missions

in short, without liara my shep might not have the will to save the world

Mass Effect is a game and even more a story. For me it's not just a story about saving the galaxy from the reapers and breaking the ever lastin circle of destruction, it's a story about Liara and Shepard (for someone else it's something different and this is the most amazing thing about this game). That's why I will save Liara over anything else because without her there will be no point in my story anymore. I want to know how Liara and Shep's story will conclude and luckily I don't have to think if my actions are etchical or not since ME trilogy is still just a game. Like PMC said if I would someday found myself in that kind of situation: sacrificing my love one or millions or billions of faceless people or even just a few people, I really have no idea how I would act. Of course while sitting here in my comfy chair, I can say that I'll definetely save those other people and even better I would do this heroic last stand and sacrifice myself in order to save those other people. But as said by me and PMC and maybe some other people as well, that's just this armchair talk, you can't know for sure untill you're in that kind of situation.

And seriously, if we start to talk about ethics of one's actions this conversation will go on forever, trust me. There is NO absolute truth in philosophy and ethics are just one field of philosphy. Of course we can argue about how you see etchics and what is ethical or how I see it or how does Immanuel Kant see it or Jeremy Bentham. Of course we can start talking about that and realize after a year or two that the situation is still just the same it was in the beginning, you have this kind of point of view of ethics, I have mine and some one else have third kind of point of view. For example this talk about leaving David in that machine in Overlord dlc or not is about ethics. Someone want to take poor David out of that machine and they think that's ethical thing to do, some one else leaves him there in order to possibly save other people and they think that was ethicly the right choice. So there are only opinions and different view points but no absolute truth.

[King Minos]

PMC, i never really faced death like watching an incoming car and just narrowly escaping but school actually saved my entire families life. If I was there then I would honestly only help myself and my sister, if my dad and mum were close I would still go for my sister first. But I would only think of my sister first, parents second and myself last, once I know my family is safe then I may start playing hero.

[Boom_Flame]

Pockles wrote...
The genophage was immoral, no doubt about it. That doesn't mean it wasn't justified or necessary.

Can't have a discussion if you don't back your own points up. ;D

You claim it's immoral, yet in its absence millions more would have suffered. In addition, much of the suffering of the Krogan after its initiation is due to their own behavior, not the genophage. Both of these points are brought up in-game, as well.

How can it be immoral when it's absence would be immoral in itself? Such a conclusion can't be made without being ignorant to the other side of the story, thus making it invalid. In this case, the pros outweigh the cons, thus making it a (generally) moral decision. I've never claimed, by the way, that it was a completely 'moral' decision.

Whether you choose to agree with what the Salarians did, however, is a different topic unrelated to morality. I believe they could've done something else instead of having infants die at birth, for example. But as whole, the genophage was a moral decision. I for one, however, do not believe some aspects of it were done right. There is a distinction between those two ideas.

And as compensation for this off-topic discussion:

Modifié par Boom_Flame, 17 septembre 2011 - 12:37 .

[Robhuzz]

Different topic: While playing ME1 I noted some Asari names and started thinking and I just noticed how many Asari names actually end with an A. Think about it: Liara, Samara, Aethyta, Benezia, Ladanya, Elnora, Nassana, Aria, Tela (Vasir), Sha'ira, Shiala etc...

Seems like whatever you do, one of Shep/Liara's children has to have a name ending with an A...

[Korkki]

Boom_Flame wrote...
the pros outweigh the cons, thus making it a (generally) moral decision.

Actually that is only the utilitarian opinion of moral decision to be correct.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Robhuzz wrote...

Different topic: While playing ME1 I noted some Asari names and started thinking and I just noticed how many Asari names actually end with an A. Think about it: Liara, Samara, Aethyta, Benezia, Ladanya, Elnora, Nassana, Aria, Tela (Vasir), Sha'ira, Shiala etc...

Seems like whatever you do, one of Shep/Liara's children has to have a name ending with an A...

Because most names that end with A, E or other vocal letters are often female names. So when the writers make names for Asari, they often wind up with names that end as such.

[King Minos]

My views on good and evil, right and wrong will definitely change depending on the situation I find myself in: with big choices that affect millions of lives then I would have Mordins view, willing to do what is necessary but in a normal everyday situation I would have Garrus' views and see the world in black and White, if I was in a situation similiar to the reaper invasion or the blight and I was a civilian then I would have Morrigans views, the strongest survive and put yourself first and do what is needed to survive no matter what. Think of war of the worlds with Tom Cruise, if I was in that basement and the aliens were searching for us and I happen to be with a guy who just broke down making lots of noice that would get us both killed then I would kill him myself to stay alive.

[jlb524]

Korkki wrote...
And seriously, if we start to talk about ethics of one's actions this conversation will go on forever, trust me. There is NO absolute truth in philosophy and ethics are just one field of philosphy.

Yes.

Korkki wrote...

For me it's not just a story about saving the galaxy from the reapers and breaking the ever lastin circle of destruction, it's a story about Liara and Shepard (for someone else it's something different and this is the most amazing thing about this game). That's why I will save Liara over anything else because without her there will be no point in my story anymore. I want to know how Liara and Shep's story will conclude and luckily I don't have to think if my actions are etchical or not since ME trilogy is still just a game.

Hopefully for you (or your Shepard), Liara's own moral philosophy meshes with that.

Modifié par jlb524, 17 septembre 2011 - 01:04 .

[alex90c]

Korkki wrote...

Boom_Flame wrote...
the pros outweigh the cons, thus making it a (generally) moral decision.

Actually that is only the utilitarian opinion of moral decision to be correct.

Indeed.

To take this to the extreme (since I've been studying it recently), accoding to utilitarianism, gangrape is a morally "good" action because it achieves the greatest happiness for the greatest number

[jlb524]

alex90c wrote...
Indeed.

To take this to the extreme (since I've been studying it recently), accoding to utilitarianism, gangrape is a morally "good" action because it achieves the greatest happiness for the greatest number

Well, issues still remain.

'Happiness' must be defined.  Who defines that?

[Korkki]

alex90c wrote...

Korkki wrote...

Boom_Flame wrote...
the pros outweigh the cons, thus making it a (generally) moral decision.

Actually that is only the utilitarian opinion of moral decision to be correct.

Indeed.

To take this to the extreme (since I've been studying it recently), accoding to utilitarianism, gangrape is a morally "good" action because it achieves the greatest happiness for the greatest number

Exactly. The other thing is that you can't just count like " 1 pleasure " or " 1 suffering ". Utilitarianism counts them all as equals which they're not.  "okay, 15 pleasures minus 4 sufferings equals 11 pleasures... hmmm the outcome is positive so yes this is a ethical decision".

jlb524 wrote...

Well, issues still remain.

'Happiness' must be defined.  Who defines that?

That's what I meant when I said that if we really start to talk about philosophy or ethics we'll never achieve anything. We go trough the same questions over and over again because for someone happines and ethics are this and for someone else that.

Modifié par Korkki, 17 septembre 2011 - 01:32 .

[zingro]

alex90c wrote...

Korkki wrote...

Boom_Flame wrote...
the pros outweigh the cons, thus making it a (generally) moral decision.

Actually that is only the utilitarian opinion of moral decision to be correct.

Indeed.

To take this to the extreme (since I've been studying it recently), accoding to utilitarianism, gangrape is a morally "good" action because it achieves the greatest happiness for the greatest number

I... hope... not...

[King Minos]

So a gang rape member would tell his/her victim: think of this as a good thing! Your makin 4'of us happy!

[zingro]

Back on topic ~ Liara!!

I would rather Liara than 'cough' what was previously on offer..

[Korkki]

King Minos wrote...

So a gang rape member would tell his/her victim: think of this as a good thing! Your makin 4'of us happy!

Now you have to undertand that we're talking about philosophy and ethics here. This particular example is made out of utilitarian moral philosophy which basicly means that ethical thing equals the greatest good for the greatest number of people. That doesn't mean that any of us would agree on that. That is simply one example that can be used to criticize utilitarianism.

[King Minos]

On a serious note if i were to spot a gang rape I would kill them or at least hurt them enough they ever be able to do it again and I hope I haunt their dreams and destroy the raper's life. No one should ever get away with that, eye for an eye.

[Robhuzz]

zingro wrote...

Back on topic ~ Liara!!

Indeed. This has went far enough off topic.

Regarding Liara. In my current playthrough I'm almost done on the Citadel so Therum will be next. Liara has been trapped there for... I have no idea exactly how long, but I wondered about something. Biotics are supposed to take a hell lot of energy to actually use. As in a biotic has got to eat well. Liara hasn't eaten anything in quite a while I suppose. We all know she doesn't help Shepard fight the krogan or the geth on Therum. So now I wonder: If they had needed the help, would Liara actually have been able to use some biotic powers to help Shepard out in her current state?

[Boom_Flame]

Korkki wrote...
Actually that is only the utilitarian opinion of moral decision to be correct.

True, you are correct, however when talking about something like the genophage which affects millions, perhaps even billions, of lives, being utilitarian is arguably the better perspective to judge the moral issues of the decision.

But then we start getting into moral relativism, and that's a whole other shebang of discussion better left untouched as we'll never finish the discussion.

King Minos wrote...

On a serious note if i were to spot a
gang rape I would kill them or at least hurt them enough they ever be
able to do it again and I hope I haunt their dreams and destroy the
raper's life. No one should ever get away with that, eye for an
eye.

Makes the whole world blind. Revenge in such a form doesn't solve anything. If one person wants to do something bad or 'evil' to another, really there's nothing stopping them aside from their own morals, beliefs, and experiences. If such actions want to be prevented, the origin of such feelings must be tackled. Not the actions themselves.

Modifié par Boom_Flame, 17 septembre 2011 - 02:04 .