56460 réponses à ce sujet

[Pockles]

ladyvader wrote...
If you say that indirectly that Liara is responsible for Sekat's death then so is Shepard.  Shepard was the one that gave the intel to Liara to begin with.

And Shepard blames Vasir.

If Liara hadn't involved Sekat, he wouldn't have been disembowled with a shotgun. She is fully aware of this and actually brings it up without being prompted. I can't tell if she really doesn't care or if she's just trying to justify it to herself. Either way, it's plenty of reason to make a person feel guilty or responsible, and in Liara it isn't immediantly apparent.

Don't get too hung up on who shoulders the blame. It doesn't really pertain to my concern.

Modifié par Pockles, 22 octobre 2011 - 10:40 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Pockles wrote...

ladyvader wrote...
If you say that indirectly that Liara is responsible for Sekat's death then so is Shepard.  Shepard was the one that gave the intel to Liara to begin with.

And Shepard blames Vasir.

If Liara hadn't involved Sekat, he wouldn't have been disembowled with a shotgun. She is fully aware of this and actually brings it up without being prompted. I can't tell if she really doesn't care or if she's just trying to justify it to herself. Either way, it's plenty of reason to make a person feel guilty or responsible, and in Liara it isn't immediantly apparent.

Don't get too hung up on who shoulders the blame. It doesn't really pertain to my concern.

I think she does care, she sounds hurt over what happend but believes (or as you say, justify) it as a necessary sacrifice to stop the SB.

[Pockles]

Lizardviking wrote...
I think she does care, she sounds hurt over what happend but believes (or as you say, justify) it as a necessary sacrifice to stop the SB.

Liara is asserting to someone that putting Sekat into harm's way was necessary, that she had to "stay rational, make the call", even though Shepard never mentioned Sekat at all. I'm considering the possibility that Liara is trying to justify her actions to herself. Seeing Shepard again may be giving her new perspective on how much she changed since deciding to forge ahead on her own.

[ladyvader]

Pockles wrote...

ladyvader wrote...
If you say that indirectly that Liara is responsible for Sekat's death then so is Shepard.  Shepard was the one that gave the intel to Liara to begin with.

And Shepard blames Vasir.

If Liara hadn't involved Sekat, he wouldn't have been disembowled with a shotgun. She is fully aware of this and actually brings it up without being prompted. I can't tell if she really doesn't care or if she's just trying to justify it to herself. Either way, it's plenty of reason to make a person feel guilty or responsible, and in Liara it isn't immediantly apparent.

Don't get too hung up on who shoulders the blame. It doesn't really pertain to my concern.

You're trying to put all the blame on Liara and that isn't the case.  Shepard gave her the information.  She needed to know where the SB was.  She has to go else where to get that done.  Which is why she went to Sekat.

If anyone is truly to blame, it's the Shadow Broker.  Then next you can blame Cerberus because that is where Shepard got the intel from.

Placing it all in Liara is taking an extremely narrow view and you're actling like Shepard's hands are clean and they are not.

[JamieCOTC]

Don't know if anyone has seen this yet.

"Just got out of Jen Hale's con panel and she indicated there was a line in Shep's closing dialogue got her a bit choked up."  https://twitter.com/...809422205534209

Raphael Sbarge (Kaidan) also commented how the ending choked him up too.

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 22 octobre 2011 - 11:37 .

[ladyvader]

JamieCOTC wrote...

Don't know if anyone has seen this yet.

"Just got out of Jen Hale's con panel and she indicated there was a line in Shep's closing dialogue got her a bit choked up."  https://twitter.com/...809422205534209

Raphael Sbarge (Kaidan) also commented how the ending choked him up too.

I was at the panel actually.    She didn't go into any details.  Neither did Mark Meer who was on before Hale.  Not my tweet, but I think I met the person who did.  Very nice.

I'm wondering if it one of a few ending or how it ends period.  I hope for more than one ending.  I just wish Ali Hillis was there.    She was suppose to be.  

ETA:
Hale also mentioned that she is not done doing her VO work for Shepard.  She has two four hour session next week.

Modifié par ladyvader, 22 octobre 2011 - 11:51 .

[Pockles]

ladyvader wrote...
You're trying to put all the blame on Liara and that isn't the case.  Shepard gave her the information.  She needed to know where the SB was.  She has to go else where to get that done.  Which is why she went to Sekat.

If anyone is truly to blame, it's the Shadow Broker.  Then next you can blame Cerberus because that is where Shepard got the intel from.

Placing it all in Liara is taking an extremely narrow view and you're actling like Shepard's hands are clean and they are not.

I'm not blaming the entire thing on Liara. The fault lies primarily with the SB soldier (pulled the trigger), Vasir (allowed it to happen), and the SB (gave the order). However this does not, in my opinion, absolve Liara completely, since she is the one who enabled them in the first place. Liara's actions don't bother me especially, it's that she doesn't express any easily apparent remorse. She is not the only person to blame, but she is involved enough that she could, conceivably, feel guilty. My issue is whether or not she does, or should. Like I said, finger-pointing isn't imperitive here.

Modifié par Pockles, 22 octobre 2011 - 11:57 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Pockles wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...
I think she does care, she sounds hurt over what happend but believes (or as you say, justify) it as a necessary sacrifice to stop the SB.

Liara is asserting to someone that putting Sekat into harm's way was necessary, that she had to "stay rational, make the call", even though Shepard never mentioned Sekat at all. I'm considering the possibility that Liara is trying to justify her actions to herself. Seeing Shepard again may be giving her new perspective on how much she changed since deciding to forge ahead on her own.

She used Sekat as an example. So why does it matter that Shepard never brings Sekat up? Shepard raises concern that she gone cold and rather careless in terms of the pursuit. She then defend herself saying that it is necessary in order to rescue Feron.

Granted one is certainly welcome to question the validity of her insane vendetta to begin with.

[ladyvader]

Pockles wrote...

ladyvader wrote...
You're trying to put all the blame on Liara and that isn't the case.  Shepard gave her the information.  She needed to know where the SB was.  She has to go else where to get that done.  Which is why she went to Sekat.

If anyone is truly to blame, it's the Shadow Broker.  Then next you can blame Cerberus because that is where Shepard got the intel from.

Placing it all in Liara is taking an extremely narrow view and you're actling like Shepard's hands are clean and they are not.

I'm not blaming the entire thing on Liara. The fault lies primarily with the SB soldier (pulled the trigger), Vasir (allowed it to happen), and the SB (gave the order). However this does not, in my opinion, absolve Liara completely, since she is the one who enabled them in the first place. Liara's actions don't bother me especially, it's that she doesn't express any easily apparent remorse. She is not the only person to blame, but she is involved enough that she could, conceivably, feel guilty. My issue is whether or not she does, or should. Like I said, finger-pointing isn't imperitive here.

Way I look at it, she really  has nothing to feel sorry for.  Neither does Shepard if you go by what is said in game and not someone's head canon. 

Vasir at that point was still playing Shepard which is why she killed the SB agent.  If I remember correctly, she did watch the agent kill Sekat then killed the agent to make Shepard feel she was still helping but was not.

[Pockles]

Lizardviking wrote...
She used Sekat as an example. So why does it matter that Shepard never brings Sekat up? Shepard raises concern that she gone cold and rather careless in terms of the pursuit. She then defend herself saying that it is necessary in order to rescue Feron.

Granted one is certainly welcome to question the validity of her insane vendetta to begin with.

I didn't say it was anything more than a possibility. Or even a well thought out one.

I never believed Feron was worth the collateral, personally. A concern of mine is that all of this will be swept under the rug.

[ladyvader]

Pockles wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...
She used Sekat as an example. So why does it matter that Shepard never brings Sekat up? Shepard raises concern that she gone cold and rather careless in terms of the pursuit. She then defend herself saying that it is necessary in order to rescue Feron.

Granted one is certainly welcome to question the validity of her insane vendetta to begin with.

I didn't say it was anything more than a possibility. Or even a well thought out one.

I never believed Feron was worth the collateral, personally. A concern of mine is that all of this will be swept under the rug.

I think Shepard has bigger issues that got swept under the rug.  Oh, like the Reapers for instance.  Which I do hope Liara has a part to play in their demise.

Since this page is lacking in the blue department.  Lets fix that shall we.

Modifié par ladyvader, 23 octobre 2011 - 12:17 .

[Pockles]

ladyvader wrote...
Way I look at it, she really  has nothing to feel sorry for.

So you're saying that if, in order to get your way, you painted a target on someone's back by pitting them against the interests of extremely dangerous people, without even telling them about it, and (big shocker here) they were killed by these extremely dangerous people, you wouldn't feel the least bit guilty?

ladyvader wrote...
If I remember correctly, she did watch the agent kill Sekat then killed the agent to make Shepard feel she was still helping but was not.

She did exactly that. Allowed it to happen. Which is what I said she did.

ladyvader wrote...
I think Shepard has bigger issues that got swept under the rug.  Oh, like the Reapers for instance.

We aren't talking about the reapers, are we?

You seem to be getting irritable.

Modifié par Pockles, 23 octobre 2011 - 12:23 .

[ladyvader]

Pockles wrote...

ladyvader wrote...
Way I look at it, she really has nothing to feel sorry for.

So you're saying that if, in order to get your way, you painted a target on someone's back by pitting them against the interests of extremely dangerous people, without even telling them about it, and (big shocker here) they were killed by these extremely dangerous people, you wouldn't feel the least bit guilty?

ladyvader wrote...
If I remember correctly, she did watch the agent kill Sekat then killed the agent to make Shepard feel she was still helping but was not.

She did exactly that. Allowed it to happen. Which is what I said she did.

I was talking about Vasir, not Liara. 

Think about this.  If Vasir hadn't made Spepard think she was there to help.  And Shepard derp derp on it too.  There was something in Vasir's body langauage something wasn't right about her being there.  If Shepard hadn't shared that intel with Vasir, Vasir wouldn't have known about Liara going to the Dracon Trade Center and the SB agents wouldn't have blown up three floors to kill one person.(and didn't sucessed either)  Sekat wouldn't have died.

At that point, it was Shepard that got Sekat killed.  Not Liara.

[Pockles]

ladyvader wrote...
I was talking about Vasir, not Liara.

Vasir has nothing to feel sorry for?

[Pariah Culexus]

Pockles wrote...

I never believed Feron was worth the collateral, personally. A concern of mine is that all of this will be swept under the rug.

It wasn't all about Feron even if that was part of it. Her target was always the SB even if the mission parameters changed from revenge to rescue & revenge.

I think that she was too court up in finally getting a chance to get at the SB to really let herself feel anything, whether remorse at anything she did, her happiness/love/confusion at shepard's pressence or really anything.
When confronting the Shadwo Broker he says that the boming of the civilians were nessecary where Liara rather emotionally (or that was how I heard it anyway) says that it wasn't.

it is first when the SB is dead that she allows for any kind of feelings to resurface, whether her feeling for shepard or (I believe) about what has happened. 

[Pockles]

Pariah Culexus wrote...
It wasn't all about Feron even if that was part of it. Her target was always the SB even if the mission parameters changed from revenge to rescue & revenge.

So rescue and revenge was worth all the collateral, then.

Pariah Culexus wrote...
I think that she was too court up in finally getting a chance to get at the SB to really let herself feel anything, whether remorse at anything she did, her happiness/love/confusion at shepard's pressence or really anything.

Maybe, but she doesn't give all of the dead people a second thought after she kills the SB. I kind of expected to see a "was it worth it" thing going on.

[pf17456]

[quote]Pockles wrote...

So you're saying that if, in order to get your way, you painted a target on someone's back by pitting them against the interests of extremely dangerous people, without even telling them about it, and (big shocker here) they were killed by these extremely dangerous people, you wouldn't feel the least bit guilty?

[/quote

No more guilty than a Commander sending scouts into enemy lines or a Detective getting a suspect to flip on a friend to get a bigger fish. You might look at it as trying to get your way. Others might look at it as a means of succeeding at a goal. Maybe it was BW's way of dismissing all the MarySue talk about Liara. I like a Paragade Liara, It makes her a more interesting character.

[Pariah Culexus]

Pockles wrote...

Pariah Culexus wrote...
It wasn't all about Feron even if that was part of it. Her target was always the SB even if the mission parameters changed from revenge to rescue & revenge.

So rescue and revenge was worth all the collateral, then.

I am not saying that it is, but it was quite obvious that she was willing to go a fairly long way to get those things done, how much she regets what happened is not really answered.

Pockles wrote...

Pariah Culexus wrote...
I think that she was too court up in finally getting a chance to get at the SB to really let herself feel anything, whether remorse at anything she did, her happiness/love/confusion at shepard's pressence or really anything.

Maybe, but she doesn't give all of the dead people a second thought after she kills the SB. I kind of expected to see a "was it worth it" thing going on.

She dosn't show that she does at least and what is she really expected to do about it? I believe that she would grieve about it or something for herself but right after the fight she had other things on her mind. 

While I can see why she would feel remorse at Sekat it was not her fault what happened to all those other people there who died, she did not do anything beyond being present.

And while I can understand a "was it woth it?" question comming up after the fight I am glad they handled it the way they did instead, perhaps a question like that can come up in ME3, though I doubt it. 

[ladyvader]

Pockles wrote...

ladyvader wrote...
I was talking about Vasir, not Liara.

Vasir has nothing to feel sorry for?

Vasir is dead. 

[Pockles]

ladyvader wrote...
Way I look at it, she really has nothing to feel sorry for.

^ Talking about Liara? If so, please answer this:

So you're saying that if, in order to get your way, you painted a target on someone's back by pitting them against the interests of extremely dangerous people, without even telling them about it, and (big shocker here) they were killed by these extremely dangerous people, you wouldn't feel guilty?

ladyvader wrote...
Think about this.  If Vasir hadn't made Spepard think she was there to
help.  And Shepard derp derp on it too.  There was something in Vasir's
body langauage something wasn't right about her being there.  If Shepard
hadn't shared that intel with Vasir, Vasir wouldn't have known about
Liara going to the Dracon Trade Center and the SB agents wouldn't have
blown up three floors to kill one person.(and didn't sucessed either) 
Sekat wouldn't have died.

At that point, it was Shepard that got Sekat killed.  Not Liara.

And if Liara hadn't involved Sekat in the first place he wouldn't have died either. We can play the blame game all day. It's secondary to what I'm actually trying to talk about.

[karmensandiego]

Pockles wrote...
And if Liara hadn't involved Sekat in the first place he wouldn't have died either. We can play the blame game all day. It's secondary to what I'm actually trying to talk about.

Ok, I'm not trying to get into the discussion, but I'm actually confused.  What are you trying to talk about?  I mean what's the point you're trying to make?

[Gokuthegrate]

Havent played ME in a while but wasnt Sekat an info broker or something similar?
That seems like it could be a dangerous job so if someone was finally able to reach him I dont think Liara is to blame.
It would of happened at some point.
The job comes with risks.

[kumquats]

^ I thought Sekat was some sort of cartographer, because he works in the Baria Frontiers office.

[Pariah Culexus]

karmensandiego wrote...

Pockles wrote...
And if Liara hadn't involved Sekat in the first place he wouldn't have died either. We can play the blame game all day. It's secondary to what I'm actually trying to talk about.

Ok, I'm not trying to get into the discussion, but I'm actually confused.  What are you trying to talk about?  I mean what's the point you're trying to make?

I too am getting confused, what are you trying to say Pockles?

[ratzerman]

ladyvader wrote...

I'm wondering if it one of a few ending or how it ends period.  I hope for more than one ending. 

From all the things that have been said about the ending, from devs and voice actors, I'm assuming that Shep will die, no matter what. It's going to be heartbreaking for me, as I'm sure it will be for the rest of you. I've become so attached to my Shep. Watching her die in ME2 was bad enough. Losing her forever is going to be devastating.

Modifié par ratzerman, 23 octobre 2011 - 02:10 .