56469 réponses à ce sujet

[TMA LIVE]

Again, is the Shadow Broker a threat to society? Is he trying to kill me? Is he blowing up colonies? Is killing him a no choice option?


Or am I just doing it because Liara wants him dead out of revenge?

Because before she learned Feron was alive, the mission was to kill him out of revenge.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 27 décembre 2011 - 03:38 .

[TMA LIVE]

jreezy wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Could you? He might be too dangerous for that.

Same for keeping prisoners in the battle field, yet soldiers still spared soldiers when given an option. Unless they weren't the type to do that.

I figure most people Shepard has killed no question asked was too much of a hassle to neutralize in a non-lethal way.

And in the case of the Shadow Broker, he fights you to the end, despite an offer to surrender.

But again, my mission wasn't to kill him. It was get Feron, and get out.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 27 décembre 2011 - 03:38 .

[1136342t54_]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Again, is the Shadow Broker a threat to society?

Yes.

Is he trying to kill me?

He worked for (or with)  a group that attempted to kill you.

Is he blowing up colonies?

Possibly the SB sells info. The SB may have sold info that gave a Batarian pirate knowledge of Alliance patrols around a colony giving them enough info to attack. The SB even works with the collectors.

Is killing him a no choice option?

Considering the SB pretty clearly is willing to sell your body to the Collectors I'd say unless you can beat his offer you won't get much of a choice.

Or am I just doing it because Liara wants him dead out of revenge?

Liara sees the Shadow broker as a threat. A threat who just so happens to have tortured a close friend. I'm sure that revenge is a part of it but by saying you shouldn't fight because you are (reasonably) angry over a close friend being lost to you is just wrong. Especially that person you need to take down is a threat to the Galaxy due to his dealings.

Because before she learned Feron was alive, the mission was to kill him out of revenge.

You don't 100% know that. Liara likely wants the Shadow Broker for both killing Feron and nearly dooming the Galaxy. By thinking that Liara would let the Shadow Broker go if he didn't kill Feron is rather stupid for her. Any sane character would realize the SB is a threat.

[1136342t54_]

TMA LIVE wrote...

And in the case of the Shadow Broker, he fights you to the end, despite an offer to surrender.

But again, my mission wasn't to kill him. It was get Feron, and get out.

So you were willing to let the SB go even though he is still willing to give your body to the Collectors? Yeah that makes perfect sense.

[TMA LIVE]

If you are willing to work for groups willing to send you on missions that in your opinion will basically involve killing for business. Liara at the very least want to take down the Shadow Broker for killing Feron, Stealing Shepard's body and working for the Collectors a faction that has proven time and time again a enemy to the rest of the galaxy.

As far as I'm aware, any death is for a higher goal. Like stopping the Collectors from attacking human colonies. Or stopping biotic extremist from killing hostages. Or stopping Saren.

If I was going after the Shadow Broker because he assassinates people, then I might as well go after the Illusive Man instead of working for him. Same with the Alliance.

Hell, Cerberus I'd have more reasons to get revenge on them if I'm a Sole Survivor, yet that ain't happening.

But revenge isn't a higher goal. It's a personal one.

[TMA LIVE]

1136342t54 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

And in the case of the Shadow Broker, he fights you to the end, despite an offer to surrender.

But again, my mission wasn't to kill him. It was get Feron, and get out.

So you were willing to let the SB go even though he is still willing to give your body to the Collectors? Yeah that makes perfect sense.

I was a dead body with a price tag. I don't blame him.

And I wouldn't let him go.

[1136342t54_]

TMA LIVE wrote...

I was a dead body with a price tag. I don't blame him.

The SB knows about the SR2 and even has cameras on board that for some reason haven't been spotted by EDI. He also has informants in the Lazarus project and it is possible he knows about the Reaper threat but still is willing to help the Collectors. Probably due to indoctrination by dealing with the Collectors. Killing the SB was always a top priority. 

I blame him because the SB may have had neutral intentions it still was the wrong move period. The SB likely has made other deals that has gotten many many people killed. Quite possibly more people than Cerberus. SB is still a danger since he was willing to work with the Collectors once and could do it again. 

[Nightwriter]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

The way I saw it, you'd have to be someone like Cerberus if you wanted to find the Shadow Broker. Because killing a bunch of agents and getting their data isn't going to do it, unless you get lucky. If someone else in the galaxy is after the Shadow Broker, they've already done what Liara's doing right now, and more. Because unlike Liara, who's mostly acting on Illium, Cerberus is gathering info all over the galaxy. Yet those people still didn't get the Shadow Broker. It took Cerberus giving her info they gathered in order for her to finally find him.

So to me, killing the observer for data was pointless. If she did find a real lead that way, it would be out of luck

Then add in the fact that I don't like taking lives, unless I have to.

If the PC is enlisted to achieve a goal, it is usually as good as done, regardless of the odds.

I don't understand what you mean?

No matter how bad the odds, the hero usually wins. It makes it hard to see even the Shadow Broker as an implacable enemy. I know that if BIoWare has Shepard go after the Shadow Broker, Shepard will likely win, and the Shadow Broker's power and resources won't matter.

[TMA LIVE]

1136342t54

1) How is he a threat? He's worked with the Collectors a few times. Does that mean he was on the side of the Reapers? Or just getting closers to them, so he can find options of hope.

2) So what? I'm working for a terrorist group that killed my old team.

3) I don't care about a "what if". Give me a fact that's in the game before LOSTB.

4) Liara doesn't tell me or say the Broker is a threat. A threat to her, maybe.

5) How did the Broker almost doomed the galaxy? For trying to sell a dead body? In the grand scheme of things, maybe. But at the end of the day, he was just trying to sell a body.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 27 décembre 2011 - 03:58 .

[TMA LIVE]

Nightwriter wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

The way I saw it, you'd have to be someone like Cerberus if you wanted to find the Shadow Broker. Because killing a bunch of agents and getting their data isn't going to do it, unless you get lucky. If someone else in the galaxy is after the Shadow Broker, they've already done what Liara's doing right now, and more. Because unlike Liara, who's mostly acting on Illium, Cerberus is gathering info all over the galaxy. Yet those people still didn't get the Shadow Broker. It took Cerberus giving her info they gathered in order for her to finally find him.

So to me, killing the observer for data was pointless. If she did find a real lead that way, it would be out of luck

Then add in the fact that I don't like taking lives, unless I have to.

If the PC is enlisted to achieve a goal, it is usually as good as done, regardless of the odds.

I don't understand what you mean?

No matter how bad the odds, the hero usually wins. It makes it hard to see even the Shadow Broker as an implacable enemy. I know that if BIoWare has Shepard go after the Shadow Broker, Shepard will likely win, and the Shadow Broker's power and resources won't matter.

So you're saying your helping Liara get revenge because you'll win?

[1136342t54_]

TMA LIVE wrote...

If you are willing to work for groups willing to send you on missions that in your opinion will basically involve killing for business. Liara at the very least want to take down the Shadow Broker for killing Feron, Stealing Shepard's body and working for the Collectors a faction that has proven time and time again a enemy to the rest of the galaxy.

As far as I'm aware, any death is for a higher goal. Like stopping the Collectors from attacking human colonies. Or stopping biotic extremist from killing hostages. Or stopping Saren.

If I was going after the Shadow Broker because he assassinates people, then I might as well go after the Illusive Man instead of working for him. Same with the Alliance.

Hell, Cerberus I'd have more reasons to get revenge on them if I'm a Sole Survivor, yet that ain't happening.

But revenge isn't a higher goal. It's a personal one.

You only work with Cerberus due to them being most likely to help you go after the Collectors (a group the SB helped) any other time you would be slautering their agents like in ME1.  There was no point in bringing them up. The only reasons to actually work with the SB or even Cerberus is out of goals that is greater than simple Council law. Unfortunately for the SB this time what he was doing would put the entire Galaxy at risk.

Again I kept saying that this isn't just about revenge which seems to be simply ignored. This is about both some revenge and simple logic. You don't want a group like Cerberus off on their own continuing to exist. You definitely don't want the SB to keep working with the Reapers.  For some reason you seem to think the simple fact someone wants revenge somehow makes perfectly logical reasons for wanting to take down a dangerous group false.

Its like saying Shepard is pissed off for the Reapers killing millions of humans on Earth but since he is pissed going after the Reapers would be wrong since he is (rightly) pissed off about that.

[Nightwriter]

TMA LIVE wrote...

So you're saying your helping Liara get revenge because you'll win?

You said helping Liara was pointless because even if you did gain information about the Shadow Broker, he's still unconquerable.

I said it didn't seem pointless because no enemy who comes before the hero is unconquerable.

[TMA LIVE]

1136342t54 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I was a dead body with a price tag. I don't blame him.

The SB knows about the SR2 and even has cameras on board that for some reason haven't been spotted by EDI. He also has informants in the Lazarus project and it is possible he knows about the Reaper threat but still is willing to help the Collectors. Probably due to indoctrination by dealing with the Collectors. Killing the SB was always a top priority.

There's nothing to prove he was indoctrinated. He even helped you fight Saren because he wanted you to win.

Was he on your side? No. He was playing everyone.

[1136342t54_]

[quote]TMA LIVE wrote...

1136342t54

1) How is he a threat? He's worked with the Collectors a few times. Does that mean he was on the side of the Reapers? Or just getting closers to them, so he can find options of hope.
[/quote]
He has shown multiple times that he wants your body to sell to the Collectors possibly after figuring out that they are working with the Reapers.

[quote]
2) So what? I'm working for a terrorist group that killed my old team.
[/quote]
The whole point of that is to fight the Collectors a group working for the Reapers. Again the SB has helped this same group.

[quote]
3) I don't care about a "what if". Give me a fact that's in the game before LOSTB.
[quote]
Why does it have to be before LOTSB? We know for a fact that the SB has been working with the Collectors and we know for  a fact that the SB is willing to sell info to play both sides of most groups. Why wouldn't they sell info that would involve killing others?
[quote]
4) Liara doesn't tell me or say the Broker is a threat. A threat to her, maybe.
[/quote]
Liara does tell you before LOTSB. Of course you could just tell her to go die if you think he is simply only a threat to her.

Edit: Also the argument isn't based off of whether Shepard knows the SB is a threat but whether Liara just wants revenge. Obviously it isn't just about revenge. 
[quote]
5) How did the Broker almost doomed the galaxy? For trying to sell a dead body? In the grand scheme of things, maybe. But at the end of the day, he was just trying to sell a body.
[/quote]
The Broker nearly doomed the entire damn Galaxy in the process. Maybe it was a misunderstanding but even the SB's neutral intentions easily can get people killed. It really doesn't matter now. The SB may not be evil at all but that doesn't mean the SB is innocent or isn't a threat. Neutral =/= innocence.

Modifié par 1136342t54 , 27 décembre 2011 - 04:10 .

[TMA LIVE]

Nightwriter wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

So you're saying your helping Liara get revenge because you'll win?

You said helping Liara was pointless because even if you did gain information about the Shadow Broker, he's still unconquerable.

I said it didn't seem pointless because no enemy who comes before the hero is unconquerable.

You argue that ME2 was pointless, yet don't consider giving someone info that's not used not pointless?

[1136342t54_]

TMA LIVE wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I was a dead body with a price tag. I don't blame him.

The SB knows about the SR2 and even has cameras on board that for some reason haven't been spotted by EDI. He also has informants in the Lazarus project and it is possible he knows about the Reaper threat but still is willing to help the Collectors. Probably due to indoctrination by dealing with the Collectors. Killing the SB was always a top priority.

There's nothing to prove he was indoctrinated. He even helped you fight Saren because he wanted you to win.

Was he on your side? No. He was playing everyone.

Note that is before he worked with the Collectors and before Cerberus actually seem to know about the Reapers. If you want to assume he is playing everyone then what is the point in constantly willing to sell Shepard's body to the Collectors even after the Lazarus project? Shepard has proven time and time to be able to combat the Reaper threat.

[TMA LIVE]

1136342t54

1) Again, so what? He tried to sell your corpse to them. Big deal. That doesn't mean he was working for the Reapers.

2) Helping them is not the same thing as working for them. He could be working for them solely to get closer to them to gain more information.

3) Because before LOSTB is where these judgements are coming from. Example, after LOSTB, we now know the Shadow Broker was selling slaves to the Collectors. We now know he tried to kill Tali. We now know that Wilson was working for the Shadow Broker. But we only knows this after the fact.

4) Give me a quote that she says the Shadow Broker is a threat. Tell me where she says it, and I'll get it myself.

5) Again, I don't kill people because "they ain't innocent". I might as well kill Jack then, if that's the case.

[Nightwriter]

TMA LIVE wrote...

You argue that ME2 was pointless, yet don't consider giving someone info that's not used not pointless?

Well that seems to be a separte issue entirely, doesn't it? 

The long and short of it is that ME2 is an entire game, whilst that data collection was a little sidequest that is replaced later by a bigger, better, so much more fantastic quest that I can scarcely even think about that terminal hacking side mission, let alone resent what small effort I put into it.

But the main issue seems to be your uncomfortableness with Liara's revenge, which is perfectly fair. Not everyone is comfortable with the concept of revenge.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 27 décembre 2011 - 04:17 .

[TMA LIVE]

1136342t54 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I was a dead body with a price tag. I don't blame him.

The SB knows about the SR2 and even has cameras on board that for some reason haven't been spotted by EDI. He also has informants in the Lazarus project and it is possible he knows about the Reaper threat but still is willing to help the Collectors. Probably due to indoctrination by dealing with the Collectors. Killing the SB was always a top priority.

There's nothing to prove he was indoctrinated. He even helped you fight Saren because he wanted you to win.

Was he on your side? No. He was playing everyone.

Note that is before he worked with the Collectors and before Cerberus actually seem to know about the Reapers. If you want to assume he is playing everyone then what is the point in constantly willing to sell Shepard's body to the Collectors even after the Lazarus project? Shepard has proven time and time to be able to combat the Reaper threat.

One man from a realistic point of view ain't a sure victory against Gaint Killing Machines.

And at the time, that one man was dead.

[TMA LIVE]

Nightwriter wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

You argue that ME2 was pointless, yet don't consider giving someone info that's not used not pointless?

Well that seems to be a separte issue entirely, doesn't it? 

The long and short of it is that ME2 is an entire game, whilst that data collection was a little sidequest that is replaced later by a bigger, better, so much more fantastic quest that I can scarcely even think about that terminal hacking side mission, let alone resent what small effort I put into it.

But the main issue seems to be your uncomfortableness with Liara's revenge, which is perfectly fair. Not everyone is comfortable with the concept of revenge.

Exactly.

[1136342t54_]

TMA LIVE wrote...

1136342t54

1) Again, so what? He tried to sell your corpse to them. Big deal. That doesn't mean he was working for the Reapers.

You do know that Shepard was alive most of ME2 right? He wanted Shepard's body even then LOTSB just made it more convenient for him. 

2) Helping them is not the same thing as working for them. He could be working for them solely to get closer to them to gain more information.

He was doing it so well by giving them the one person who has proven to be a very affective soldier in this fight against the Reapers. Well done.

3) Because before LOSTB is where these judgements are coming from. Example, after LOSTB, we now know the Shadow Broker was selling slaves to the Collectors. We now know he tried to kill Tali. We now know that Wilson was working for the Shadow Broker. But we only knows this after the fact.

Even before LOTSB the SB wanted vital info on the Alliance that they could have sold to any other faction that could easily get people killed. The SB is an information broker that doesn't really care much about casualties unless it gives him the most power and profit.

4) Give me a quote that she says the Shadow Broker is a threat. Tell me where she says it, and I'll get it myself.

basically when she explains that the Shadow Broker is willing to give the Collectors Sheps body? Who's to say he still doesn't want Shepards body to sell? If the Collectors pay the SB enough money he may end up sending assassins after Shep.

5) Again, I don't kill people because "they ain't innocent". I might as well kill Jack then, if that's the case.

Then again you act like the SB is completely innocent of every deal with the Collectors even after the Lazarus project SB still want to sell Shepards corpse to the Collectors.

[Nightwriter]

I have the advantage of being very revenge friendly.

[1136342t54_]

TMA LIVE wrote...

One man from a realistic point of view ain't a sure victory against Gaint Killing Machines.

And at the time, that one man was dead.

That one man was heavily vital in saving the Galaxy once and is being sent on a mission to save it again while most other factions aren't doing much to stop it. Yeah it is basically a step backwards either way. If the SB really wanted to get things going he could use his resources to actually pushing some of the leaders of the Council races to actually start building up their military. Hell he could easily incite a cold war in which the Galaxy would be forced into building up their fleets to help combat the Reapers.

At the same time the SB could make the idea of the Reapers being real seem more likely among some of the Governments in the Council and 'persuade' them into acting on it.  There was pleny of things the SB could have done but he hasn't. Either the SB was completely ignorant to the Collectors working with the Reapers or at the very worst knew about it but wasn't doing much about it.