56461 réponses à ce sujet

[GodWood]

Don't be absurd. I don't see Femshep as a man, she simply is the man in the context of the Shepard/Liara romance.

Obviously such titles and roles are not necessary in all relationships, however in the context of the S/L romance this is the only option available (unless of course you choose to rewrite it in your headcanon)

Modifié par GodWood, 13 février 2012 - 06:37 .

[HolyAvenger]

Tbf, Shep comes across as the more dominant partner in any relationship regardless of gender. This is because Shep is the player character.

[GodWood]

HolyAvenger wrote...
Tbf, Shep comes across as the more dominant partner in any relationship regardless of gender. This is because Shep is the player character.

It's an unfortunate trend in most Bioware games.

I recall David Gaider saying that Alistair was originally meant to be a tough, grizzled veteran but the focus groups they had for that design said that he 'emasculated the player'. Unfortunately a lot of female players got the short end of the stick thanks to his change.

It's not always the case though. In my DA2 playthrough I had a male Hawke romance Anders and to me it seemed Hawke filled the role of 'traditional female'. That was quite refreshing (assuming I ignore that I hated both characters)

[PMC65]

GodWood wrote...

Don't be absurd. I don't see Femshep as a man, she simply is the man in the context of the Shepard/Liara romance.

Obviously such titles and roles are not necessary in all relationships, however in the context of the S/L romance this is the only option available (unless of course you choose to rewrite it in your headcanon)

If it makes you happy go with it.

[HolyAvenger]

GodWood wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...
Tbf, Shep comes across as the more dominant partner in any relationship regardless of gender. This is because Shep is the player character.

It's an unfortunate trend in most Bioware games.

I recall David Gaider saying that Alistair was originally meant to be a tough, grizzled veteran but the focus groups they had for that design said that he 'emasculated the player'. Unfortunately a lot of female players got the short end of the stick thanks to his change.

It's not always the case though. In my DA2 playthrough I had a male Hawke romance Anders and to me it seemed Hawke filled the role of 'traditional female'. That was quite refreshing (assuming I ignore that I hated both characters)

I don't mind it so much. The more control you put into the hands of the player the better imo.

That said, the fact that FemShep had to hit on each of her LIs in ME2 bothered me a little. No room for give-and-take there?

So Liara, anyway, yeah. Hope she gets someone else to romance if Shep is with one of the other LIs. Not Feron though, I never dug him so much.

[Yuqi]

GodWood wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...
I've never done a Liara romance with a FemShep for example. Just felt too cliched to do the whole lesbian thing.

Wat?

I've never completed a Femshep/Liara playthrough but not because it's too chiche.

My main issue is that it's simply common in most forms of entertainment to have the strong, confident, independant female hero be a lesbian. (or at least bisexual)

Also the fact that no matter how you play femshep she is without a doubt the 'man' in the relationship and this only exacerbates the issue.

I disagree, the clique is: strong female lead gets (the overly-sweet, vomit inducing.) prince charming.

Modifié par Yuqi, 13 février 2012 - 07:05 .

[PMC65]

HolyAvenger wrote...

I don't mind it so much. The more control you put into the hands of the player the better imo.

That said, the fact that FemShep had to hit on each of her LIs in ME2 bothered me a little. No room for give-and-take there?

So Liara, anyway, yeah. Hope she gets someone else to romance if Shep is with one of the other LIs. Not Feron though, I never dug him so much.

I'm really not into other characters hooking up but if they must ... I don't really see Liara with any other character. Unless Kaidan is alive, then that might work.
 
Are they doing hookups? Wait - I don't want to know. Forget I asked.

[HolyAvenger]

Really? It makes the game-world feel more alive for me. Its weird if everyone is Shepard-sexual.

[PMC65]

Yuqi wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...
I've never done a Liara romance with a FemShep for example. Just felt too cliched to do the whole lesbian thing.

Wat?

I've never completed a Femshep/Liara playthrough but not because it's too chiche.

My main issue is that it's simply common in most forms of entertainment to have the strong, confident, independant female hero be a lesbian. (or at least bisexual)

Also the fact that no matter how you play femshep she is without a doubt the 'man' in the relationship and this only exacerbates the issue.

I disagree, the clique is: strong female lead gets (the overly-sweet, vomit inducing.) prince charming.

Why you wanna diss Zoe?

[Yuqi]

PMC65 wrote...

Yuqi wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...
I've never done a Liara romance with a FemShep for example. Just felt too cliched to do the whole lesbian thing.

Wat?

I've never completed a Femshep/Liara playthrough but not because it's too chiche.

My main issue is that it's simply common in most forms of entertainment to have the strong, confident, independant female hero be a lesbian. (or at least bisexual)

Also the fact that no matter how you play femshep she is without a doubt the 'man' in the relationship and this only exacerbates the issue.

I disagree, the clique is: strong female lead gets (the overly-sweet, vomit inducing.) prince charming.

Why you wanna diss Zoe?

The best 'prince charming' was prince charming from the Shrek Movies  

[Han Shot First]

GodWood wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...
Tbf, Shep comes across as the more dominant partner in any relationship regardless of gender. This is because Shep is the player character.

It's an unfortunate trend in most Bioware games.

I recall David Gaider saying that Alistair was originally meant to be a tough, grizzled veteran but the focus groups they had for that design said that he 'emasculated the player'. Unfortunately a lot of female players got the short end of the stick thanks to his change.

Where did they find that collection of morons to use in that focus group?

[HolyAvenger]

Re: Alistair. How could the Warden have been the hero of the story if the other Warden is a grizzled, tough veteran? Duncan took that role and had to be killed off so the Warden's story could be told.

Games as a medium impose certain conditions on the story that can be told and the characters that become part of the story. I certainly wouldn't want to play a game where I'm the tougher guy's sidekick.

[GodWood]

HolyAvenger wrote...
Re: Alistair. How could the Warden have been the hero of the story if the other Warden is a grizzled, tough veteran? Duncan took that role and had to be killed off so the Warden's story could be told.

You could happily have your character take the role of sidekick or you could constantly have the PC question and challenge Alistair's lead.

I think it it'd be fun to play.

[HolyAvenger]

Ehh, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I reckon it'd be boring as and I certainly wouldn't shell out my hard-earned for it.

[Yuqi]

But I think the Asari as a whole seem to be the dominent ones with relationships; they live longer,have stronger biotics, ect ect.

Modifié par Yuqi, 13 février 2012 - 07:28 .

[PMC65]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Really? It makes the game-world feel more alive for me. Its weird if everyone is Shepard-sexual.

It's great in theory but then it could also be a train wreck.

They could put characters with each other that you just can't see being together ... Liara & Garrus for one. The last thing I want to see is Garrus leaning against Liara as she flirts with him. Renegade interrupt!

But they will probably do it and I got money that says fans of the characters will rage over who their character is hooked up with. I'll bring the popcorn!

[Yuqi]

I put money on Team Dextro, getting together.

Modifié par Yuqi, 13 février 2012 - 07:33 .

[PMC65]

Yuqi wrote...

But I think the Asari as a whole seem to be the dominent ones with relationships; they live longer,have stronger biotics, ect ect.

And they don't play gender roles ... but the game does not say that Shepard is the boss of that relationship. Liara displays independence from Shepard and it is Shepard acting like the wife in LotSB not Liara.

Hell, my poor FemShep was just trying to keep up with her.

And physically? It wasn't Shepard that went to Liara before Ilos ... and I'm pretty sure that Liara led.

Shepard: Just tell me what to do.

[HolyAvenger]

Well if you're not romancing them you can hardly complain about them having a love life can you ffs. Then they aren't characters just cardboard cutout space waifus.

I'm not sure why asari having biotics or living longer would imply they're the dominant one in a relationship for what its worth. I can't follow that logic.

Edit: ^ I don't know what game you were playing but all through ME1 Liara is basically the shy, virginal, socially-inept stereotype. Not that I mind it given that she's the romance for the closest thing I have to a canon Shep. In the ME2 she's a lot stronger and able to stand upto Shep as an equal but Shep still runs around saving her life and doing stuff for her. Liara calls herself out on the fact she can't seem to get anything done without Shep. <_<

Modifié par HolyAvenger, 13 février 2012 - 07:39 .

[Yuqi]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Well if you're not romancing them you can hardly complain about them having a love life can you ffs. Then they aren't characters just cardboard cutout space waifus.

I'm not sure why asari having biotics or living longer would imply they're the dominant one in a relationship for what its worth. I can't follow that logic.

Edit: ^ I don't know what game you were playing but all through ME1 Liara is basically the shy, virginal, socially-inept stereotype. Not that I mind it given that she's the romance for the closest thing I have to a canon Shep. In the ME2 she's a lot stronger and able to stand upto Shep as an equal but Shep still runs around saving her life and doing stuff for her. Liara calls herself out on the fact she can't seem to get anything done without Shep. <_<

Living longer equals more experience in many thing's, that can be quite intimidating in relationships. 

I agree with you about ME1, but (I played in reverse order)  even then she had her dominating moments. I can think of one at least.(if you pick renegade options when she hits on you.)

Modifié par Yuqi, 13 février 2012 - 07:55 .

[PMC65]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Well if you're not romancing them you can hardly complain about them having a love life can you ffs. Then they aren't characters just cardboard cutout space waifus.

I'm not sure why asari having biotics or living longer would imply they're the dominant one in a relationship for what its worth. I can't follow that logic.

Edit: ^ I don't know what game you were playing but all through ME1 Liara is basically the shy, virginal, socially-inept stereotype. Not that I mind it given that she's the romance for the closest thing I have to a canon Shep. In the ME2 she's a lot stronger and able to stand upto Shep as an equal but Shep still runs around saving her life and doing stuff for her. Liara calls herself out on the fact she can't seem to get anything done without Shep. <_<

Well, I played ME1 but with a different view finder then you and that is okay. I don't expect us to see the same things and if you listen to the voice actors they also see the characters in a different light. I find that interesting ... especially Ali's take on Liara.

In my view finder, Liara is attracted to Shepard so with her she is unsure, self-conscious and careful. However, when Shepard questions her abilities she is quick to defend herself. Liara also stands solid when she talks to Ashley, Kaidan, Alestia and even gives a scolding remark about Joker. She does not hesitate or appear shy when she talks with the other characters except Shepard. If you don't romance her she appears even stronger in character to me.

I also felt that you saw the real Liara when she spoke with Alestia and Benezia along with the quick exchange with the Consort. This would be where she would be most comfortable, with other asari. Although, I think Ash saw that Liara wasn't so innocent as well. You can't fool a woman. 

As to virginal ... she says that she isn't a "virgin" in a human sense. What she is discussing is the process of melding with someone. Does that mean that she has never been physical? We don't really know. She is 106 years old when you meet her and we know nothing about the asari world. Did she have girlfriends growing up on Thessia? That's left up to the player to fill in her past since she never tells you her past.

If you saw her as "shy, virginal, socially-inept" in ME1 I wouldn't say you are wrong just because I saw her differently.

Your $$$ ... your game ... your Liara!

[Han Shot First]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Re: Alistair. How could the Warden have been the hero of the story if the other Warden is a grizzled, tough veteran? Duncan took that role and had to be killed off so the Warden's story could be told.

Games as a medium impose certain conditions on the story that can be told and the characters that become part of the story. I certainly wouldn't want to play a game where I'm the tougher guy's sidekick.

Alistair being a grizzled veteran of many battles against the darkspawn, wouldn't automatically relegate your character to sidekick status. Nor would it diminish the badassery of the player's warden.

[karmensandiego]

PMC65 wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Well if you're not romancing them you can hardly complain about them having a love life can you ffs. Then they aren't characters just cardboard cutout space waifus.

I'm not sure why asari having biotics or living longer would imply they're the dominant one in a relationship for what its worth. I can't follow that logic.

Edit: ^ I don't know what game you were playing but all through ME1 Liara is basically the shy, virginal, socially-inept stereotype. Not that I mind it given that she's the romance for the closest thing I have to a canon Shep. In the ME2 she's a lot stronger and able to stand upto Shep as an equal but Shep still runs around saving her life and doing stuff for her. Liara calls herself out on the fact she can't seem to get anything done without Shep. <_<

Well, I played ME1 but with a different view finder then you and that is okay. I don't expect us to see the same things and if you listen to the voice actors they also see the characters in a different light. I find that interesting ... especially Ali's take on Liara.

In my view finder, Liara is attracted to Shepard so with her she is unsure, self-conscious and careful. However, when Shepard questions her abilities she is quick to defend herself. Liara also stands solid when she talks to Ashley, Kaidan, Alestia and even gives a scolding remark about Joker. She does not hesitate or appear shy when she talks with the other characters except Shepard. If you don't romance her she appears even stronger in character to me.

I also felt that you saw the real Liara when she spoke with Alestia and Benezia along with the quick exchange with the Consort. This would be where she would be most comfortable, with other asari. Although, I think Ash saw that Liara wasn't so innocent as well. You can't fool a woman. 

As to virginal ... she says that she isn't a "virgin" in a human sense. What she is discussing is the process of melding with someone. Does that mean that she has never been physical? We don't really know. She is 106 years old when you meet her and we know nothing about the asari world. Did she have girlfriends growing up on Thessia? That's left up to the player to fill in her past since she never tells you her past.

If you saw her as "shy, virginal, socially-inept" in ME1 I wouldn't say you are wrong just because I saw her differently.

Your $$$ ... your game ... your Liara!

Hell I'd say they're both tops and bottoms.  I mean in the Ilos scene, Liara certainly starts out dominant but then Shep takes over!  They're both switches! 


I agree with PMC that its not just Shepard that we can all have different interpretations about.  Liara, Ashley, Kaidan and Miranda are cetainly viewed completely different by players.

GROUP HUG EVERYONE!!!!

[-Ryuu-]

by efleck

[HolyAvenger]

Look, I don't have issues with alternate character interpretations but she basically comes out and tells you she has no idea how to interact with people from other species and the fact she is damn nervous around Shepard tells me she has little clue with regards to romantic relationships. She is on sure footing with regards to her expertise on the Protheans and amongst other asari because she knows what she is talking about there. So yeah I'm quite happy to call her socially-inept because thats basically what she calls herself. 

As for melding...for asari that's clearly an analogue to sexual relationships. Couldn't be a bigger metaphor if it tried (procreations, deep connections, melding/union blah blah). And Liara hasn't done it hence virginal.

I'm sorry but I just can't see that much wiggle room for interpretation of her character. Each to their own of course.


Edit: ahh, too many discussions. Figure out for yourself who I'm replying to hehe:P

1) Ok, the age thing has been done to death but basically you can't take the asari age as meaning much. They obviously mature much more slowly. Hence a much older asari can be mentally immature and be a less commanding or intimidating personality. So I still can't equate asari = dominant in relationship. 

2) Well if Alistair was this big tough guy, why would he relinquish command to the Warden? Hell it barely made sense as it was, if his personality had been more alpha male it wouldn't have made sense at all. 

Modifié par HolyAvenger, 13 février 2012 - 08:56 .