208 réponses à ce sujet

[jbblue05]

jlb524 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

I want character consistency in ME3 like it was in DA Origins.  No matter if you were male or female Zevran slept with both men and women but he preferred women same with Leliana.   .

Leliana didn't even mention men if you played a female Warden...she's an inconsistent bisexual, I suppose.

When you talk to her about her methods as a bard it can be inferred she used sex to get what she wanted.
If your a fem warden and romancing Zevran you can ask her to join in and Leliana considers it

Modifié par jbblue05, 16 juin 2011 - 03:01 .

[Eternal Dust]

Sylvianus wrote...

Since when characters should strongly proclaim " I'm straight " to be sure it is straight ...

Since when should characters strongly proclaim "I'm gay/bi" to be considered gay/bi?

[The dead fish]

Liliandra Nadiar wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Shepard has no choice. When Shepard asked if he will not be a spectre, Anderson lets him know subtly that he has no choice, because humanity needs him. And they need their best candidate. Ashley as Shepard has a total dedication to the Alliance.

I saw that more that the Alliance brass has already put Shepard's name forward as a canidate to be concidered (thus Nihlius' presence from the get go), so it's more a case of asking 'forgiveness' over asking permission. (Plot elements aside)

That's only if you romance her and change her view on non-humans...which not everyone did...including myself.

And it's looking at you. Not me, we'll see in the game if there will be difference. And there is obviously the main reason that Ashley will meet the expectations of the alliance.

" The Spectre's answer to the Council...not the Alliance.  If the Alliance needs her so bad...why not put all her effort into aiding them? "

You know what I mean. The Alliance need her to accept the collaboration with the council, if she is chosen by Humanity. So it works.

Only problem I have with that is Ashley's 'history' with the brass concerning her family. Ash is loyal to the Alliance, this is pretty much an iron-clad fact. The Alliance is not, necsesarilly loyal back. ME1 and Shepard's 'influence' put her into the spotlight and forced the Alliance to reward her actions. I don't see the Alliance (san Anderson) putting Ashley up for Specter nomination of their own initiative.

Shepard could have already left the Spectres before the trial.

It's just a hypothesis that shows that there are lots of possible justifications, and warn you to wait until you play the game before you decide that's not logic. Because me I see the logic somewhere.

Ashley is very competent, your view is merely subjective. If you think she is not strong based on her ranking, it's looking at you. After all she lived experience is long since become an elite fighter. Not the highest ranking or the best, but enough to become human spectre. Be among the best, not necessarily the best of human marines. Can be seen to have played a role, as Shepard.

Actually, Shep 'left' the Specters at the begining of ME2 after being killed. Thus it's very possible that there was no human Specter in the intervining time (and through ME2 if you played that way).

1 -  Yet she became Lieutenant and that the Alliance has promoted. What she could have ever dreamed of reaching before M1. There is a movement of the Alliance on the issue, for sure, What size? We do not know. but indeed, it is certain that this development occurred after M2. Personally I lean more to the policy reason. We had to replace Shepard  a spectre as soon as possible. But I'm very intrigued. Do not forget that Ashley was already doing her report to the citadel after Horizon.

2- I guess, she'll become a spectre after M2 too. But I don't know, it's just a spectulation. Because it's almost impossible that it was before Horizon, indeed. Anderson talked  her as operation chief.

[The dead fish]

octoberfire wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Since when characters should strongly proclaim " I'm straight " to be sure it is straight ...

Since when should characters strongly proclaim "I'm gay/bi" to be considered gay/bi?

Ashley's behavior is enough to indicate how she was presented. By cons I see no reason she could be one second bi. Absolutely nothing. " A yes " ," she hasn't said she wasn't interested to Femshep."

I played more than twenty times Mass Effect 1, as always with Ashley romance, and never any indication anywhere.

I  would feel that this is not ashley any more. A development that would meet the expectations of some out of context. That's not what I want for her character, which I follow since many years as her fan.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 16 juin 2011 - 03:22 .

[Cypher0020]

So on a Ash related now.... how will your Femshep react to Ash becoming a Spectre?

Mine's thrilled.... her lover is the Shadow Broker and her best friend is now a Spectre

[Liliandra Nadiar]

Sylvianus wrote...
1 -  Yet she became Lieutenant and that the Alliance has promoted. What she could have ever dreamed of reaching before M1. There is a movement of the Alliance on the issue, for sure, What size? We do not know. but indeed, it is certain that this development occurred after M2. Personally I lean more to the policy reason. We had to replace Shepard  a spectre as soon as possible. But I'm very intrigued. Do not forget that Ashley was already doing her report to the citadel after Horizon.

2- I guess, she'll become a spectre after M2 too. But I don't know, it's just a spectulation. Because it's almost impossible that it was before Horizon, indeed. Anderson talked  her as operation chief.

 True, but it strikes me more a political move, either in support or because of her apointment to Specter. She's a Gunnery Chief in ME1, two years later she's Operations Chief, only one rank higher. Then a few months later she's one of the three Lieutenant
ranks (probably 2nd since it's the 'next step up' from Op Chief) and a Specter. I can't see the two being unrelaited.

[The dead fish]

Cypher0020 wrote...

So on a Ash related now.... how will your Femshep react to Ash becoming a Spectre?

Mine's thrilled.... her lover is the Shadow Broker and her best friend is now a Spectre

Surprised first, and after explanations, surely happy.

[jlb524]

Sylvianus wrote...

Because maybe  humanity is a part of the council. Because humanity judge shepard and takes her responsability as race's council?

Gone are the days when humanity begged the Council. It is part of the Council now.

Humanity is absolutely the right to require another human spectrum, as there are no any more. Do not you think it's a legitimate request?

I'm not entirely sure that a member of the Council (especially a newly appointed one like humanity) has the right to say 'we want a Spectre/we need one'....it's ulimately up to the Council to select their own Spectres and they usually watch these individuals for years prior to appointing them as one.   I don't think there's necessarily a quota.

We also know that in spite of what happened in ME1, the non-human Council races still don't trust humanity.

I'm not saying it's an impossibility, but these things need explained and I'm sure they will be.  As of now, the whole 'Ashley is a Spectre' thing seems to be coming out of left field...and you will sit her and defend it with your own justifications...fine...but realize that's no different from what others who think Ashley could be bisexual are doing now. 

[Raanz]

jlb524 wrote...

As I don't romance either characters, I don't figure them as anything.  Plus, what 'drastic' personality change will bisexual Ashley show?  Will she become a wallflower?  Start hating poetry?  Not give a damn about her family anymore?

Have you ever played Dragon Age 2?  There is a very recognizable change in an established character when they make a character accessible for romance to anyone.

Then don't play the FemShep/Ash romance if it's added.

Hehe, you state that like it's not an obvious choice already.  I already said I would continue to play the game, and just giggle a bit at the compromise in past character development.  I'm sorry you don't like the fact I don't agree with your opinion on this.

Modifié par Raanz, 16 juin 2011 - 03:27 .

[jlb524]

jbblue05 wrote...
When you talk to her about her methods as a bard it can be inferred she used sex to get what she wanted.

Sex with who though?

Also, having sex as part of a job has nothing to do with a person's actual desire/attraction...they do it b/c they had to.

jbblue05 wrote...
If your a fem warden and romancing Zevran you can ask her to join in and Leliana considers it

I've never seen this.  It's optional...so it's not a good way to show that she's a totally legit bisexual in your eyes...doesn't the male and female attraction for a bisexual character have to be obvious and unavoidable?

Raanz wrote...

Have you ever played Dragon Age 2?  There
is a very recognizable change in an established character when they make a character accessible for romance to anyone.

Oh yeah, Anders changed because they made him bisexual, not because they made him become possessed by a spirit of Justice.

Modifié par jlb524, 16 juin 2011 - 03:29 .

[Mr.House]

Raanz wrote...


Have you ever played Dragon Age 2?  There is a very recognizable change in an established character when they make a character accessible for romance to anyone.

Oh relly? Who? If you means Anders, he can be flirty with some of the male comanions in DA2 and he never said he was straight. Nice try.

[Shadow_82]

I see the maturity in this thread is at an all time low....nice.Some of you need to grow up.<_<

[The dead fish]

jlb524 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Because maybe  humanity is a part of the council. Because humanity judge shepard and takes her responsability as race's council?

Gone are the days when humanity begged the Council. It is part of the Council now.

Humanity is absolutely the right to require another human spectrum, as there are no any more. Do not you think it's a legitimate request?

I'm not entirely sure that a member of the Council (especially a newly appointed one like humanity) has the right to say 'we want a Spectre/we need one'....it's ulimately up to the Council to select their own Spectres and they usually watch these individuals for years prior to appointing them as one.   I don't think there's necessarily a quota.

We also know that in spite of what happened in ME1, the non-human Council races still don't trust humanity.

I'm not saying it's an impossibility, but these things need explained and I'm sure they will be.  As of now, the whole 'Ashley is a Spectre' thing seems to be coming out of left field...and you will sit her and defend it with your own justifications...fine...but realize that's no different from what others who think Ashley could be bisexual are doing now. 

Anderson has promoted my Shepard to spectre statut without consulting the other members. ( renegade ending  in mass effect 1 with a new council ) He said they would do nothing because humanity is far too important.

Also, the council ( parangon ending in m1 )has no doubts confidence about humanity. It said in the M2's codex, that humanity has earned the respect and confidence of the other species.

If the council refuses to help at first humanity, it's because the terminus systems are outside its jurisdiction. But if humanity is threatened within its borders, they will help it. Anyway, The Council is very intelligent. they know it would be intolerable for a race that is a part of the Council can not have its own spectrre. it is not logical and it would be a violent offense. I do not see any politician to oppose it without offending a good ally.

And if renegade, humanity may well require to have its spectre.

It may take years, yes, as have a seat with the Council may take a century or more. But it's true that humanity has waited only 26 years for a council seat.

Besides Anderson eight years after the first contact, was nearly chosen as the first  humanspectre. We see that humans are good at speed things up. XD

The only thing that I can't explicate for now, it's Cerberus lol. But it's another story.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 16 juin 2011 - 03:46 .

[jlb524]

Cypher0020 wrote...

So on a Ash related now.... how will your Femshep react to Ash becoming a Spectre?

Mine's thrilled.... her lover is the Shadow Broker and her best friend is now a Spectre

Happy for her, I suppose.

Even though my Shepard is no longer a Spectre and thinks the Council is idiotic.

Sylvianus wrote...
The only thing that I can't explicate for now, it's Cerberus lol. But it's another story.

And you are explaning most of it...which is a change in character.  Which is what the writers do.

The same can be said for opening up a character for s/s romance...it seems you will accept no explanation in this case.

That's my point, really.  I don't think it unrealistic that Ashley is now a Spectre.  It will be explained properly and not just 'be' when ME3 is started.

Modifié par jlb524, 16 juin 2011 - 03:46 .

[Mr.House]

Fiona will be shocked.

[The dead fish]

Liliandra Nadiar wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
1 -  Yet she became Lieutenant and that the Alliance has promoted. What she could have ever dreamed of reaching before M1. There is a movement of the Alliance on the issue, for sure, What size? We do not know. but indeed, it is certain that this development occurred after M2. Personally I lean more to the policy reason. We had to replace Shepard  a spectre as soon as possible. But I'm very intrigued. Do not forget that Ashley was already doing her report to the citadel after Horizon.

2- I guess, she'll become a spectre after M2 too. But I don't know, it's just a spectulation. Because it's almost impossible that it was before Horizon, indeed. Anderson talked  her as operation chief.

 True, but it strikes me more a political move, either in support or because of her apointment to Specter. She's a Gunnery Chief in ME1, two years later she's Operations Chief, only one rank higher. Then a few months later she's one of the three Lieutenant
ranks (probably 2nd since it's the 'next step up' from Op Chief) and a Specter. I can't see the two being unrelaited.

I agree with you. To me too it's seems a political move.

[Volus Warlord]

Shadow_82 wrote...

I see the maturity in this thread is at an all time low....nice.Some of you need to grow up.<_<

huhuhuhuh.. I wanna see Ash and Femshep sci:ph34r::ph34r: and :ph34r::ph34r::ph34r: and :ph34r::ph34r: all night long!

[jbblue05]

jlb524 wrote...

Sex with who though?

Also, having sex as part of a job has nothing to do with a person's actual desire/attraction...they do it b/c they had to.

True but Leliana took great joy in her time as a Bard

I've never seen this.  It's optional...so it's not a good way to show that she's a totally legit bisexual in your eyes...doesn't the male and female attraction for a bisexual character have to be obvious and unavoidable?

You can also kill Zevran and not recruit Leliana

[Shadow_82]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Shadow_82 wrote...

I see the maturity in this thread is at an all time low....nice.Some of you need to grow up.<_<

huhuhuhuh.. I wanna see Ash and Femshep sci:ph34r::ph34r: and :ph34r::ph34r::ph34r: and :ph34r::ph34r: all night long!

Someone's up past their beddy-bye time.

[The dead fish]

jlb524 wrote...

Cypher0020 wrote...

So on a Ash related now.... how will your Femshep react to Ash becoming a Spectre?

Mine's thrilled.... her lover is the Shadow Broker and her best friend is now a Spectre

Happy for her, I suppose.

Even though my Shepard is no longer a Spectre and thinks the Council is idiotic.

Sylvianus wrote...
The only thing that I can't explicate for now, it's Cerberus lol. But it's another story.

And you are explaning most of it...which is a change in character.  Which is what the writers do.

The same can be said for opening up a character for s/s romance...it seems you will accept no explanation in this case.

That's my point, really.  I don't think it unrealistic that Ashley is now a Spectre.  It will be explained properly and not just 'be' when ME3 is started.

Nothing to do with Ashley. The spectre are a recurring subject of debate. It''s very easy to understand how the council can work. no need to wait always for the game to understand.

There are elements in the game, information, evidence, things that may indicate a change of some sort. All I have explained above is based on a support in the game. I had already anticipated that there would be a trial for shepard before the arrival Shepard, even if I though it wase because of Cerberus.. It does not mean I'm right, but there are already opportunities to get an idea.

And for Ashley there are too many improper things.

Nothing in the game that shows the supposed hidden nature.

That appears at the last episode, separated by a second.

Fanservice, when I see that many do not care how the characters were thinking and just want to be satisfied, sorry, but I disagree. I don't put everyone in the same package, but I'm here long enough and I can read.

This has nothing to do with gay or straight, it's about respect for the characters and how they were created.

Leliana if she wasn't bi any more, I would be pissed. And it would be the same for a lesbian or gay character. If the in last episode, hetero would asked that the character turned into bi, at the expense of how he/she was writing, I'll be annoyed.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 16 juin 2011 - 04:09 .

[jlb524]

jbblue05 wrote...
True but Leliana took great joy in her time as a Bard

That doesn't mean she enjoyed every aspect of it...or all the things she had to do.

jbblue05 wrote...
You can also kill Zevran and not recruit Leliana

And?

[ADLegend21]

jbblue05 wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I just wonder why some Ash fans are so concerned over this, considering Ashley's potential love for the ladies will never ever be shown in their MaleShep playthroughs?

I'm pretty sure the only way you will see it is:

1) play as FemShep
2) flirt with Ashley
3) profit

Well sexuality is a big part of a character's personaility.

I would like Ash to be remembered as one of Bioware's deep, more complex, and controversial characters.

Not the Miranda wannabe, that runs around in a catsuit and does girl on girl.

Sexuality=/= personality. I know plenty of gay people I thought were straight becauseof how they act. Not everyone wears their sexuality on their sleeve. Ash doesn't go "blah blah blah I'm straight blah blah" Plus to the "retcon point" it's not a retcon if she suddenly realizes she has feelings for a female Shepard. since you know, it just happened. plus it'd be femshep only as jlb said,it's not like she'llw alk up to male shep and go "So yeah I'm gay, we're through" and walks away to make out with Liara.

I never said Sexuality=Personality. A character sexuality helps you identify with them

Straight people feel like they don't have to show their sexual orientation unless they have unwanted advances from the same sex.

I want character consistency in ME3 like it was in DA Origins.  No matter if you were male or female Zevran slept with both men and women but he preferred women same with Leliana.   .

and what consistency would ashley have in a femshep playthrough where she's not romanced stay "stag" and single? She never mentions any guys to either Male or female Shepard so it's only assumed she's straight because she cna be romanced by a male shepard without the unused files allowing for femshep to do the same, she could STILL be bi since bisexuals date people of both genders. She's never said declared she was straight so her sexuality is up in the air. She'd still love poetry, care deeply for her family name (which she's done proud by becoming a Spectre and Lieutenant) and defend the Alliance and humanity with every fiber in her being. Same Ash different lovers.

[jlb524]

Sylvianus wrote...

Nothing to do with Ashley. The spectre are a recurring subject of debate. It''s very easy to understand how the council can work. no need to wait always for the game to understand.

Yes, the workings of the Council/Spectres are a subject of debate as we really don't know much about them from the game, but it does have something to do with Ashley as she is becoming one.

Sylvianus wrote...
There are elements in the game, information, evidence, things that may indicate a change of some sort. All I have explained above is based on a support in the game. I had already anticipated that there would be a trial for shepard before the arrival Shepard, even if I though it wase because of Cerberus.. It does not mean I'm right, but there are already opportunities to get an idea.

None of what you said could be anticipated from the start...it's a new thing they decided to add in and explain.  The same could be said about her sexualilty.  I only play FemShep and have no clue what Ashley's sexuality is from an in-universe perspective...she could be asexual from what I know.   What is telling me she's absolutely not into women or even likes men?  In a ManShep game, what is telling you that she strictly likes men?

Sylvianus wrote...
Fanservice, when I see that many do not care how the characters were thinking and just want to be satisfied, sorry, but I disagree. I don't put everyone in the same package, but I'm here long enough and I can read.

I'm not even sure why people are against 'fanservice' or is it just 'fanservice' that benefits others and not themselves that they don't like?  There's fanservice everywhere.  You could say bringing back Ashley and Kaidan in the first place is fanservice, b/c the fans have been asking for them for some time. 

Sylvianus wrote...
This has nothing to do with gay or straight, it's about respect for the characters and how they were created.

Characters change, though. 

Sylvianus wrote...
Leliana if she wasn't bi any more, I would be pissed. And it would be the same for a lesbian or gay character. If the in last episode, hetero would asked that the character turned into bi, at the expense of how he/she was writing, I'll be annoyed.

Characters change, though.  I mean, look at Liara...they made her into the Shadow Broker...out of nowhere.

Modifié par jlb524, 16 juin 2011 - 04:22 .

[jbblue05]

ADLegend21 wrote...

and what consistency would ashley have in a femshep playthrough where she's not romanced stay "stag" and single? She never mentions any guys to either Male or female Shepard so it's only assumed she's straight because she cna be romanced by a male shepard without the unused files allowing for femshep to do the same, she could STILL be bi since bisexuals date people of both genders. She's never said declared she was straight so her sexuality is up in the air. She'd still love poetry, care deeply for her family name (which she's done proud by becoming a Spectre and Lieutenant) and defend the Alliance and humanity with every fiber in her being. Same Ash different lovers.

In a femshep playthrough  or if you give Ash the You're out of line dialogue Ash still gets the e-mail from her sister "that Kaidan is cute"  Their is still "James" e-mail.
I'm sure Bioware can alter her character to be bi in many ways.. But in ME1 she's Straight, she never hits on a female character
You're argument is a slippery slope.  You might as well say everybody can easily be bisexual, all aliens could be open to some xenophilia.  Everyone could be up for some Beastiality. Everybody could be open to sex with robots.

Ash has already been altered from ME1 Ash. In a way Bioware is admitting they made a mistake with Ash and they're altering her to be a more agreeable character.  Ash should be the character Bioware intended from the Begiining of ME1, making her a F/F romance is appeasement and making her more agreeable