483 réponses à ce sujet

[InvincibleHero]

StarMarine wrote...

A strange logic indeed, you for yourself have no proof that she committed any crimes prior to her indoctrination either. At the time she was given to the Thorian she was already under the influence of Sovereign, so she just had to follow Saren's command without any chance of resistance. if you hypnotize a man and order him to kill someone else you really would dare to blame him for that act? If so - I really hope for you that you won't meet a judge with your conviction - should something similar happen to you.

For the rest of your arguments I have nothing else to add than that in my post above.<_<

As opposed to what logic are you and others using ignoring evidence as if it doesn't exist. Totally disregarding her confession to what amounts a capital offense in Shepard's and Shiala's mind both. Are you going to confess if you're innocent and let Shepard kill you? I doubt it. That is primary evidence in any capital case. It is one of the strongest evidences a prosecutor can utilize.

Hypnosis is bunk as depicted in movies and live shows. I guess you'd know that if you studied psychology. Brain washing and sleeper agents is likely a myth as well. There is no real evidence on either and I am unaware of any exonerations in court cases from such arguments. Don't worry we live in reality and such things will never happen.

[Siansonea]

@Invincible Hero: Never go to law school. You will fail all your classes. Save your money.

[InvincibleHero]

[quote]whywhywhywhy wrote...

[quote]InvincibleHero wrote...

[quote]whywhywhywhy wrote...

Wow you and dean are on the wrong side of this argument.  Addressing the in-game aspect as a renegade Sheperd I think it's all about the order in which you do things.  If I did feros first I don't know that I'd be convinced about Shiala's argument of mind control her odds of death are higher.  After noveria because of Benezia's actions I'd start to believe that indoctrination was true, because honestly for who she was an the role in which she served the Asari people it doesn't fit.  After Noveria the encounter with Shiala becomes much harder to justify if you intend to kill her, it would mean everyone in me3 who becomes indoctrinated and commits crimes must die by Sheperd's rule.  Once you learn that indoctrination is real, most likely real then her death becomes murder.  You can't be charged with it but morally that's what it is.

From a moral standpoint let's say I had powers of mind control and this is unknown to you and Dean, the both of you renegades are coming to hunt me down to answer for my crimes only to become my unwilling pawns.  If you were to be prosecuted for crimes I compelled you to commit you'd be guilty until it was proven my mind control powers were real.  You'd then have proof and could plead insanity/temporary insanity in a court of law.
[/quote]
[/quote]

[quote]InvincibleHero wrote...
No she had full control and allied with Saren[/quote]Prove this.  I see it this is where your going astray.  Shiala followed Matriarch Benizia to assist her with her mission.  Benizia'a mission was one of peace she wanted to convince Saren his actions were wrong.  Your labeling this intent for good as intent to ally, your entire argument falls apart because of this.  You have to prove that Shiala in full control (complete free will) and Beniza choose to ally with Saren, show me where in the storyline this occurred.

[quote]InvincibleHero wrote...
whom she knew to do bad things. Indoctrination is after. [/quote]We do know for a fact that reaper ships emit a indoctrination signal.  If Sovereign was serving as Saren's flagship indoctrination occurred when or soon after they met him.  You act as if Benizia and her followers contacted Saren with a proreaper agenda, until you can prove that your argument falls apart.

[quote]InvincibleHero wrote...
If she did not join Benezia and Saren guess what she is not in that position. [/quote] The fallacy you present is a false dilema as if the only two correct choices exists when in fact many more exist.  You've also misrepresented the situation, Beniza was never with Saren as a ally.  Not until she became indoctrinated and even then she fought against it to help Sheperd.  Without her help, we can't say if the location of the mu relay would have been found.  Without the cipher we can't say the location of the conduit wouldn't have been found so quickily.  So how are they allies if they are helping Saren's enemies ?

[quote]InvincibleHero wrote...
There are plenty of examples of asari being evil and lying in the game. It is a judgement callperiod.  Thereis circumstatial evidence on both sides.[/quote]I've highlighted the very concept in my intial post and I stand by what I said execution of Shiala after encountering Beniza first is poor judgement, murder.

[quote]InvincibleHero wrote...
 We did not willing join your criminal empire to try and change you into a better person as Benezia claimed.[/quote]Nor did Beniza join willingly while trying to arrest Saren.  You question her motives that's fine if you think that but how can you possible establish that her motives weren't genuine.  If she truly intended to "join" Saren then she would have known about indoctrination, she woud ahve brought as many asari as she could rather then asking them if they wanted to come.  She wouldn't have stored a portion of her sanity and used it to give Sheperd the osd that saved the galaxy.

[quote]InvincibleHero wrote...
I think it needs to be mentioned it could have been a total fabrication. Just because someone tells you something it should not = instant exoneration. LOL. It is a highly unbelievable story and I think paragon Shepard gullible for falling for it. Yet I did it 5 out of 6 times. I really did feel bad for having to execute her only once as punishment for crimes lacking any other alternative other than to let her go scot free.[/quote]  If the Beniza's mission had no intent to join with and support Sheperd how could her followers have intentions on joining Saren ?  Why would they need Beniza instead of leaving to search out Saren for themselves ?

[quote]InvincibleHero wrote...
Is it murder to kill merc mooks that have yet to fire on you? I'd say you could call it that. How about civilian cerberus scientists like in ME1? [/quote]  Depends on the situation if those mercs are sitting in a bar drinking, absolutely.  If they are armed guards hired to protect some illegal venture then No.  And as far as the scientist(Corporal Tombs) yes it is murder that's why I didn't let him do it, I did it.  As a spectre I'd been given legal authority to do so and given the 48 lives they were responsible for and harm they inflicted on Tombs I felt the punishment justified the crime.

[quote]InvincibleHero wrote...
Not really. Proving mind control exists would not be enough. The thorian would almost be required to say yep "I controlled her and made her do that." Well being dead aliens tell no tales suffice to say cannot go in court and help her. It'd be like saying I was under control of x drug so I'm not responsible when you have no blood tests to back it up. Anyone can make claims you need proof.
[/quote] I might have little proof but you have even less, just because you make a judgment doesn't means justice has been served.  And that's the only and driving point of your argument. 

Here's mine:

Shiala was indoctrinated after being released from the thorian something obvious was done to her mind by the thorian.  She was given the Cipher and transferred it to Sheperd (proven by sheperds ability to understand protean) so we know that the thorian has the ability to manipulate minds.  Futher proof of this is it's spores.  So we know that Shiala was indoctrinated and when she's released she's not.  The only varible between being indoctrinated and being freed from it was the Thorian, ergo the Thorian's mind manipulation freed Shiala from indoctrination.

We can make a reasonable and educated guess that if Shiala was still indoctrinated then she never would have given Sheperd the Cipher, causing him to fail finding the Conduit in time.  FF to the destruction of the galaxy ?

The evidence:
Indoctrination is real.
Thorian was real.
Thorian could manipulate minds.
The memories of the Thorian was given to Shiala(cipher).
Shiala Gave those memories to Sheperd.

That isn't the action of a indoctrinated person.

If she was lying for freedom noone knew who she was she easily could have said "I came here loking for Beniza and Saren stuffed me into the Thorian."  Why admit working with him ? What does that gain her ? 

Now, where's your proof ?
[/quote]

Easy to prove she said it herself and Benezia backs it up. She willingly followed Benezia when they joined Saren. Benezia obviously located Saren to do it. Since they obviously were not indoctrinated before even meeting him and Sovereign this is a no-brainer. They willing joined a criminal as underlings not superior giving orders. They were subservient and had to to anything Saren asked.

Saren would not ally if he did not see benefit. She supplied resources and man power to further his agenda which might have been sovereign's at that point so yes they willing participated in some activities of a reaper agenda without indoctrination.  Shiala and the commandos likely did covert assassinations. It isn't even clear how long they followed Saren which could have been previous to him obtaining Sovereign. There is no helpful dates and timelines given. So you want to assume she did nothing yet argue against an assumption she did. Neither can be invalidated unless you have 100% verifiable evidence. Guess what a confession is strong evidence.

Benezia knew it was questionable and would have to do morally reprehensible things which is why she asked for volunteers. The asari followed Benezia who took orders from Saren. They were only there because of Benezia which is irrelevant to whether Shiala is guilty anyway.

So your Shepard gets to judge another situation (Toombs) and call it right yet in Shiala's case it is murder. Both required Shepard's call. You can't have it both ways. Either Shepard is rational with the choices we are given or not. I believe BW would never allow their character to kill an innocent person.

Prove Shiala was ever indoctrinated. I don't think she was. She was undyingly loyal to Benezia and it was only necessary to indoctrinate her very slowly obviously since she had enough faculty to lock a small portion of her mind until completely lost.

Innocent people don't confess to crimes and offer to die for it. That is strong proof that you and others constantly ignore. She of free will when she did so. Sorry you lose. Prove her confession had no validity. What? That right you can't. That's the inconvenient truth for you and Siansonea and others.

[InvincibleHero]

Siansonea II wrote...

@Invincible Hero: Never go to law school. You will fail all your classes. Save your money.

I can point to hundreds of cases that ended in execution where largely the only evidence is motive, lack of alibi, and confession.  What do you have? Just snarky insults that truly show ignorance.

[Siansonea]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

@Invincible Hero: Never go to law school. You will fail all your classes. Save your money.

I can point to hundreds of cases that ended in execution where largely the only evidence is motive, lack of alibi, and confession.  What do you have? Just snarky insults that truly show ignorance.

Yeah, keep telling yourself that kid. No one's buying your song and dance.

[PMC65]

InvincibleHero wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

OK, not getting into the middle of the discussion, but that was funny.

I killed her once because I didn't trust her. I honestly thought that she would fight Shepard like the rachni queen ... Well, the queen got pissed but thank goobledy there was glass between her & Shepard. When Shiala got on her knees and Shepard just shot her in the back of the head ... That is the most brutal thing that I have witnessed in the game.

Everyone with Shepard should have been pissed because that was cold-blooded and merciless. It is the only time in a game that I did not save it because I would have forever HATED that Shepard. Now, if she comes back to bite my Shepard in the butt than I am afraid that she will bite him/her everytime. Because if someone would kneel down before me and leave their fate in my hands like she did, not a chance in hell would I harm that person.

Brutal. And no honor in this killing.

In ME yeah I agree it was a painful moment.

How exactly would executing someone be? It was quick and painless so humane if you thought it necessary. Yes it was hard to do and the scene pulled at heartstrings. It was very poignant but illustrated to dispense justice sometimes you need to get your hands dirty. I couldn't do that in real life unless the person killed someone I love. The fact that Shepard takes on the duty and does it to help the galaxy makes me have more respect.

Oddly the only time I redacted an action was punching al-Jilani. I think under no circumstance could that ever be justified.

I've never punched the reporter because it is just stupid and not in character for any of my Shepards ... and killing Shiala is also brutal and not in character for them. I tried playing a "douche-y" Shepard once, he was the one that shot Shiala (which I backed out), but I ended up deleting him since I can't see spending 40+ hours with a character that I can't stand ... But that is just me.

[ubermensch007]

InvincibleHero, thanks for responding to my post on the previous page and I must say; You are showing some true grit by standing up to all these people (myself included) who are ganging up on you.

Sometimes the greatest test of a persons convictions, is whether he or she is willing to stand for what they claim to believe in and hold most dear, if they stand alone.So even though I do not agree with your position.I commend you for resolve.

Now then...I suppose that what this all comes down to is this.Who has the true power? The Giver of the Law.Or the Enforcer of the Law? The Council goes ape-sh!t at Shepard, if you let the Racchni Queen go free.Because they didn't see that as his call to make.

The Asari Commando's fate was in Shepard's hands.From what I have been reading here, I am now very curious as to why Shiala submitted to his judgement so easiley.I think that there be more to one of our favorite Asari than we know.Think about, you guys remember when we meet her agin on Illium.After helping her and the colony of Zhu's Hope, she says, "Is it always like this? Yesterday's problems lingering in some new form? Isn't anything ever just fixed?

When I think of the look on her face and the tone of her voice, it appeared as though she was close to having a nervous breakdown or relaspe: akin to a drug addict or alcholic.I was playing some of Mass Effect yesterday and loaded a save that I kept in order to be able to speak to her.When she said,"My past is unremarkable." I am now wondering is that code for some trauma that she suffered or caused that she does not want anyone to have a chance of deciphering...

Now I'm more interested than ever to see her again in ME3 and learn more about her.So far, we have had an Asari Scientist on our team in ME1 - An Asari Justicar on our team in ME2 - Having an Asari Commando on our squad in Mass Effect 3; would complete the deck.

[Xeranx]

InvincibleHero wrote...

StarMarine wrote...

A strange logic indeed, you for yourself have no proof that she committed any crimes prior to her indoctrination either. At the time she was given to the Thorian she was already under the influence of Sovereign, so she just had to follow Saren's command without any chance of resistance. if you hypnotize a man and order him to kill someone else you really would dare to blame him for that act? If so - I really hope for you that you won't meet a judge with your conviction - should something similar happen to you.

For the rest of your arguments I have nothing else to add than that in my post above.<_<

As opposed to what logic are you and others using ignoring evidence as if it doesn't exist. Totally disregarding her confession to what amounts a capital offense in Shepard's and Shiala's mind both. Are you going to confess if you're innocent and let Shepard kill you? I doubt it. That is primary evidence in any capital case. It is one of the strongest evidences a prosecutor can utilize.

Previously you stated that she harmed the colonists on Feros despite lack of evidence indicating that she had.  You stated that she had a hand with how things went down on Eden Prime despite the fact that she wasn't depicted anywhere on Eden Prime or on Sovereign after the events on Eden Prime occurred.  Now you're stating what Shiala is thinking?  How or why do you think you get to do such thing?

To point 1 of Feros: The colonists themselves tell you who they're fighting against.  No mention of an Asari.  I would think that if they had seen Shiala then they would have expressed apprehension to having her around.  Or at least I would hope that the team would put that in.  Considering the fact that they didn't mention an Asari how exactly can you make a case that Shiala had a hand in their suffering?

To Point 2: Another case of everyone mentioning the Geth.  Manuel mentions a Turian.  Later we see Saren.  We see Saren point his gun at Nihlus and then we see Nihlus' body on the ground.  A colonist who was hiding recalls what we (the players) saw in a cutscene so that Shepard and co know what happened.

It's in regards to the bit in italics that I feel confident in saying what I said about Feros.

Now if you're guilty you usually try to hide it.  Very few people confess immediately.  If you confess to it you're showing a mark of integrity.  One that someone usually hopes will get them a lesser sentence as it's usually better to face the music on your own terms than face it on someone else's.  

Shiala talks about being held captive and expresses a desire to help out the colonists.  She also places herself at your mercy leaving the decision as to what may happen to her in your hands.  In deciding that she should be killed she honors that as she already stated that she will agree to whatever you decide.  Another point of integrity there and in addition, valor.  

But then, something bothers me about this.  I don't remember her offering to give you the cipher so long as you set her free.  She gives this willingly.  You can say that she's doing it to get in your good graces which then brings us back to her putting her life in your hands and accepting your decision when you decide she's better off dead.  Then there's the bit of Shepard accepting the cipher after it's explained that her interfacing with your mind is needed.  This is a biotic who's allowed to get within two feet of you, but then you sentence her to death after you get what you wanted/needed?  It doesn't add up.  And this is completely devoid of hitting Noveria first and getting all that info on indoctrination.

[WorpeX]

To point 1 of Feros: The colonists themselves tell you who they're fighting against. No mention of an Asari. I would think that if they had seen Shiala then they would have expressed apprehension to having her around. Or at least I would hope that the team would put that in. Considering the fact that they didn't mention an Asari how exactly can you make a case that Shiala had a hand in their suffering?

The problem with this is that the Colonists were unable to mention anything about the Thorian. The Thorian had full control of their actions and words. It's very likely that the Thorian would prevent them from mentioning its lackey.

Other than that statement, I agree with you.

[whywhywhywhy]

ubermensch007 wrote...

InvincibleHero, thanks for responding to my post on the previous page and I must say; You are showing some true grit by standing up to all these people (myself included) who are ganging up on you.

  I'm not ganging up on him I would be speaking out even if the situation was reverse.

ubermensch007 wrote...
Sometimes the greatest test of a persons convictions, is whether he or she is willing to stand for what they claim to believe in and hold most dear, if they stand alone.So even though I do not agree with your position.I commend you for resolve.

  I'm having trouble takin invincibleHero at his word given his responses which only repeat his position rather then offer up some new insight.  He is either trying to get a rise out of the community or isn't bothering to take time to read the post and only scans through them before responding.

He argues his position but when presented with a counter argument that disproves his own he asks for proof.  Others and myself have provided such posts and ask him for his proof, still he chooses to regurgitate the same broad generalizations while pushing the burden of proof off on those who disagree with him.  He's Ignoring and not addressing what was said, if his assertions are genuine this makes it impossible for him to:

A) Prove his point because he hasn't gone into depth and detail to explain himself based on the events within the ME universe. 

Understand the counter argument and respond accordingly.(accept/reject)

Look at his latest response to my post which I had to ask for him to do after he requested I provide "proof" of my argument.  I asked for a point by point response, he quoted my post and but a blob of subjective writing of which I can't even correlate what responds to a specific part of my posts.  My post taken as a whole is complete but broken up to address each point he's made.  He hasn't chosen to do this which stalls the debate I think that's deliberate.

His entire argument is to tell us what the character's are "thinking" or their "intentions" especially to things not witnessed.

In short he's not showing resolve in defense of his argument he's simply trying to win a agrument, he wants to feel as if he's WON rather then accept the facts and logical rationalization.

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 18 juillet 2011 - 07:33 .

[Xeranx]

WorpeX wrote...

To point 1 of Feros: The colonists themselves tell you who they're fighting against. No mention of an Asari. I would think that if they had seen Shiala then they would have expressed apprehension to having her around. Or at least I would hope that the team would put that in. Considering the fact that they didn't mention an Asari how exactly can you make a case that Shiala had a hand in their suffering?

The problem with this is that the Colonists were unable to mention anything about the Thorian. The Thorian had full control of their actions and words. It's very likely that the Thorian would prevent them from mentioning its lackey.

Other than that statement, I agree with you.

True, but it still didn't stop people from exhibiting questionable behavior.  That was made more evident by the guy down my the water controls who could have made a reference to Shiala (or someone else) being there, but didn't. 

[100k]

My, my. This thread is intense.

[Homey C-Dawg]

Moar Shiala please.

[BatmanPWNS]

100k wrote...

My, my. This thread is intense.

(Rhetorical Question)
Aren't all character related thread intense in BSN?

[whywhywhywhy]

[quote]InvincibleHero wrote...
Easy to prove she said it herself and Benezia backs it up. She willingly followed Benezia when they joined Saren. Benezia obviously located Saren to do it. Since they obviously were not indoctrinated before even meeting him and Sovereign this is a no-brainer. They willing joined a criminal as underlings not superior giving orders. They were subservient and had to to anything Saren asked. [/quote]

This post fails to address my presentation of the events within the ME universe that support my position.  I point you back to my post and ask that you reread it so you can respond to it. 

[quote]InvincibleHero wrote...
Saren would not ally if he did not see benefit. She supplied resources and man power to further his agenda which might have been sovereign's at that point so yes they willing participated in some activities of a reaper agenda without indoctrination.  [/quote] prove this where is it supported ?

[quote]InvincibleHero wrote...
Shiala and the commandos likely did covert assassinations. It isn't even clear how long they followed Saren which could have been previous to him obtaining Sovereign. [/quote]  it's one thing to make a educated guesses based on facts and events that happened (most here do that) you however are inventing things to support your argument.  No meaningful discussion can take place if this is how you present "proof" by simply making it up.

[quote]InvincibleHero wrote...
There is no helpful dates and timelines given. So you want to assume she did nothing yet argue against an assumption she did. Neither can be invalidated unless you have 100% verifiable evidence. [/quote]
You go on to say she did blah blah and I've assumed she's done nothing, I've made no such claim.  I've said she was indoctrinated after they went to Saren and that made Beniza and Shaila follow Saren's/Sovereign's agenda.  This isn't proof you don't understand or aren't bothering to read people's post.  


[quote]InvincibleHero wrote...
Guess what a confession is strong evidence.[/quote] What confession ?  To being a covert assassination commando ? Complete fabrication.  Shiala admits to being indoctrinated and working for saren, yu selectively choose to believe she was with Saren but not that she was indoctrinated(really ?).  So according to you Shiala is immune against the effects of indoctrination as she was with Beniza who was shown on the ship.  And you yourself admit that Shiala followed Beniza.  

[quote]InvincibleHero wrote...
Benezia knew it was questionable and would have to do morally reprehensible things which is why she asked for volunteers.[/quote] Now I know you aren't serious his will be my last post that addresses you specifically.  Beniza is the equivilent of a monk, "Matriarchs are revered for their wisdom and experience.  They serve as mentors and guides for my people."-- Asari Citedal counsilor   You have the burden of proof to prove why such a figure and those that follow her would turn to crime with saren.  And I don't want your made up ideals but in game references that point out Matriarch Beniza to be a scoundrel, fake or phony.  If you can't provide it you are wrong.  I expand that challenge to include any Ofiical ME universe material. (books and etc)

[quote]InvincibleHero wrote...
The asari followed Benezia who took orders from Saren. They were only there because of Benezia which is irrelevant to whether Shiala is guilty anyway.[/quote] When is guilt established ?  Understand the argument before makin such claims.  The argument was can you legally/morally condemn a person for what they did under indoctrination ?  A number of people presented a argument that refuted that, you then moved the argument in the dirction of guilt by association.  Because Saren is a criminal and Shiala went with Benzia to Saren she is guilty regardless despite their reasons and being indoctrination.  Now you ask that I prove she was indoctrinated (desperation) ?  How could she follow Beniza who was indoctrinated then get taken to the Thorian by Saren who uses Sovereign as a ship and not be indoctrinated ?  Your ridiculous.

[quote]InvincibleHero wrote...
So your Shepard gets to judge another situation (Toombs) and call it right yet in Shiala's case it is murder. [/quote] And how are the two situations remotely similiar ?  We have confirmed actions by two different people one of which is a eye witness vs your opinions and fabrication of Shiala.

[quote]InvincibleHero wrote...
Both required Shepard's call. You can't have it both ways. Either Shepard is rational with the choices we are given or not. I believe BW would never allow their character to kill an innocent person.[/quote] What ???  Then why does Sheperd believe Shiala and not you? if you go to Shiala 1st then Beniza when Beniza says she's indoctrinated Sheperd then has a text selection that reads.   [-like the Asari on Feros.] Choosing it makes him/her say "We met Shiala on Feros she told us about Sovereign's indoctrination."

[quote]InvincibleHero wrote...
Prove Shiala was ever indoctrinated. I don't think she was.[/quote]No, I have posted overwhelming evidence to support my position on this.  You prove to me that Shiala is immune from indoctrination as she obviously from your own admission was with Beniza who was seen multiple times on sovereign.

[quote]InvincibleHero wrote...
She was undyingly loyal to Benezia and it was only necessary to indoctrinate her very slowly obviously since she had enough faculty to lock a small portion of her mind until completely lost. [/quote] huh ?  your losing it.

[quote]InvincibleHero wrote...
Innocent people don't confess to crimes and offer to die for it. That is strong proof that you and others constantly ignore.  She of free will when she did so. Sorry you lose. Prove her confession had no validity. What? That right you can't. That's the inconvenient truth for you and Siansonea and others. [/quote]

I haven't ignored anything.  You are simply taking it out of context and in your own words "can't have it both ways"  If you believe any of what Shiala says you have to believe it all after all her indoctrination claims are supported by Beniza and the survivors of eden prime who say sovereign gave off a signal that messed with their heads. 

How about you stop ignoring people's points and respond to them with something revelant that supports your point.

[quote]InvincibleHero wrote...
Sorry you lose.[/quote] This is why your failing, you could have put up a reasonable debate if you thought about and answered people's post.  But your so focused on WINNING you FAIL to make posts that follow and rational logic to dispute the claims that counter your argument.

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 18 juillet 2011 - 10:28 .

[Yezdigerd]

InvincibleHero wrote...
As far as I am aware the colonists only crime was attacking Shepard whilst under the influence. Shiala
obviously acted against the colonists and could have been previous to being under the thorian's thumb.

Shiala is transplanted into a plant and cloned, why would she willingly do it, masochism? The invasive
nature of the thorian's mind control power is much more apparent in Shiala then in the colonists, you only have some eggheads report on the colonists innocence. Maybe they were weakwilled? Maybe they really wanted to serve the Thorian. Maybe they will have relapse later? There really are many reasons to kill them if you are that
triggerhappy. You have the option to do that just as much as killing Shiala.

if you join the mob and they say kill this person then you do it or your jigs up. Benezia would have to do
what Saren said and obviously they committed crimes in cahoots so to speak and very likely before indoctrination since both had their minds largely intact while on Virmire we see what happens to heavily indoctrinated and it is obvious Shiala might not have even been indoctrinated just Benezia who stayed in Saren and Sovereign's
presence longer.

Except your analogue completely fails. First you need to establish that Benezia, as an asari matriach,
legally aren't entitled to combat crime as she see fit. Secondly they aren't infiltrating the mob but a government agency, Saren the spectre, who doesn't answer to local law. Thirdly they aren't doing this to fight crime but to stop a alien invasion bent on genocide of all sentient life. You have better reason to believe Shiala being indoctrinated then Benezia, since it should be very hard to imagine why she accepted to be sacrificed to the Thorian willingly.

Kinda curious in ME2 Shepard chose to cooperate with a known terrorist organization called Cerberus,Given
your stance that associating with a terrorist organization makes you complicit in their crimes, I assume that you believe Shepard is guilty of terrorism and it's justifiable to punish him as such without a trial?

I don't know why people have a problem with the fact she of sound mind confessed and was willing to accept a
death sentence. To say the least if you shoplift you wouldn't accept a death sentence.

It's very simple. It's a pretty common response in rape victims, to feel soiled, responsible, guilty,making excuses for the perpetrator etc. in many or even most cases this leads to rape not being reported at all, since the victim feels accountable. And in the face of the trauma Shiala endured rape seems rather trivial.

But Shiala is an asari who knows how they responds to mindrape?.. well except you of course.

The fact the council never reprimands Shepard completely and utterly validates the decision to execute her
end of story.

Assuming you didn't have them killed, maybe they had other things do facing a Geth war, then prosecuting
the saviour of the citadel over such a trivial matter in a human colony outside their jurisdiction? And, besides your team, there are no eyewitnesses to your murder of Shiala.

Btw how often do you think overt agent of state like soldiers are prosecuted by their own if they commit a
crime in a foreign country? Just about only when the circumstances forces them to, since it makes the country and government look bad. And post traumatic stress disorder is just about the only reason I can come up with for killing Shiala that doesn't break the fourth wall.

We are not Shepard and an obvious thing needs pointed out to you and others, he is privy to knowledge we
don't have. If BW included a kitten killing option I wouldn't use it because it would be stupid like punching al-Jilani but even worse, and BW would never include it to begin with.

BW include a great number of options that makes no sense at all even though the death of Shiala takes the
cake, is even more absurd then putting cats on fire.

Really I'm not trying to convince you that murdering Shiala isn't justifed since it's so blatantly obvious.
If you won't see it, it can only be because you don't want to.

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 18 juillet 2011 - 11:45 .

[Seboist]

Killing Shiala is perfectly justified, she's a trained biotic commando who could wreck havoc on the colonists either due to any loyalty for Saren/Benezia or from whatever mental degeneration from Sovereign's indoctrination and the Thorian's control.

Of course from a meta perspective characters rarely ever lie in ME and Bioware would never punish their holy paladins the Paragons like that. It's just crazy talk to consider it a possibility for a character with malevolent intent to worm their way out of getting gunned down by a squad armed to the teeth by giving up the cipher and lie about wanting to help the colonists!

[Xeranx]

Seboist wrote...

Killing Shiala is perfectly justified, she's a trained biotic commando who could wreck havoc on the colonists either due to any loyalty for Saren/Benezia or from whatever mental degeneration from Sovereign's indoctrination and the Thorian's control.

Of course from a meta perspective characters rarely ever lie in ME and Bioware would never punish their holy paladins the Paragons like that. It's just crazy talk to consider it a possibility for a character with malevolent intent to worm their way out of getting gunned down by a squad armed to the teeth by giving up the cipher and lie about wanting to help the colonists!

Prior to going to Noveria first and getting the cipher from her, maybe.  After going to Noveria and letting Shiala get within a foot of you well (!?).....actually nevermind Noveria.  You let what's supposed to be a dangerous criminal within a foot of you and then find it's justifiable to kill her after she interfaces with your mind?!

[Seboist]

Xeranx wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Killing Shiala is perfectly justified, she's a trained biotic commando who could wreck havoc on the colonists either due to any loyalty for Saren/Benezia or from whatever mental degeneration from Sovereign's indoctrination and the Thorian's control.

Of course from a meta perspective characters rarely ever lie in ME and Bioware would never punish their holy paladins the Paragons like that. It's just crazy talk to consider it a possibility for a character with malevolent intent to worm their way out of getting gunned down by a squad armed to the teeth by giving up the cipher and lie about wanting to help the colonists!

Prior to going to Noveria first and getting the cipher from her, maybe.  After going to Noveria and letting Shiala get within a foot of you well (!?).....actually nevermind Noveria.  You let what's supposed to be a dangerous criminal within a foot of you and then find it's justifiable to kill her after she interfaces with your mind?!

Said criminal wanting to worm their way out of their situation would know better than to do something stupid to Shepard that would get them gunned down by his/her two other squad members and like I've said it would have been nice to have the option to have her serve hard time in San Quentin but when it comes to letting her roam around free or executing her, the latter is preferable.

Modifié par Seboist, 19 juillet 2011 - 02:08 .

[Xeranx]

Seboist wrote...

Said criminal wanting to worm their way out of their situation would know better than to do something stupid to Shepard that would get them gunned down by his/her two other squad members and like I've said it would have been nice to have the option to have her serve hard time in San Quentin but when it comes to letting her roam around free or executing her, the latter is preferable.

I've had this discussion before, it still begs the question as to why Shepard or the squad would allow the meld to happen at all.  Even applying the idea that making a life-threatening action at that point is suicide, how are you to know that it's not a possibility?  If it's the probability of a relapse into indoctrination that you're worried about then you have to wary of it happening at any time or even when Shiala says she can give you the cipher.  You have no idea.  You take a lot on faith up until you get what you want and then once that's done it's time to see the reaper.  That doesn't make sense to me.  
If anything that scene should play out, more or less, this way: 

Shepard: Tell me what you know and I'll let you live.
Shiala: I have the ability to transfer knowledge that will help you understand the information passed onto you by the beacons.
Shepard: Do it.  (Meld is performed and completed)
Shiala: You now have the same ability as Saren to understand what the visions mean.
Shepard: Thanks, but I have a problem.  If there were a prison to hold you I'd put you there until someone arrives to take you to stand trial for your actions with Saren, but there's no cell and I don't have any restraints.
Shiala: But you said!
Shepard: I know what I said and I'm not heartless, but I have more pressing concerns.

Then it ends however it ends.  In that scenario that the person who has faith in the situation going favorably is Shiala.  She would have to know that her life would be forfeit if she did anything at that point.  So she would do her utmost to make good on her end.  The way it plays out, however, is Shepard completely has to have faith in not being screwed by the Asari commando who may be considerably well rested as opposed to him/her who just went against a group of creepers and three(?) iterations of the aforementioned Asari Commando who likely has the same abilities the clones had.  It's completely lopsided to think that killing Shiala is justifiable at that point especially as I pointed out earlier that she didn't express a desire to give Shepard the cipher subject to her being released safe and sound.

Modifié par Xeranx, 19 juillet 2011 - 03:00 .

[Seboist]

Even if she wasn't a threat to Shepard or the colonists executing her for aiding and abetting Saren is fine with me.

[Xeranx]

To each his own then.

[InvincibleHero]

This is my last post in this thread because it is a waste of time. The confession is enough evidence and stronger and more compelling than the lack of evidence she is innocent. The fact people still call it murder after that is irrational. That being said I let her live 5 out of 6 times lacking a better option than a more draconian punishment than I would have liked, but still justifiable.

Some other points and I'll call it a day.

1. Shiala is Benezia's #1 right hand she is out in the field doing things while B is on Sovereign and getting indoctrinated. She loyally follows her so no need to even indoctrinate.

2. Laughable that Shiala knows she was indoctrinated when Saren didn't and he was likewise running the experiments on indoctrination on Virmine. Incredulous actually. How does she even know what indoctrination was? Answer that.

3. Indoctrination was viewed as permanent and if you believe Benezia when she says she's a lost case then it is fact. Knowing this then killing Shiala makes much more sense than releasing her.

4. Council had no problem upbraiding you about killing the Rachni and knew about it before you even apprised them. Obviously someone is sending them reports and the Shiala incident would likewise reach their desk.

5. Many instances in ME2 where working with Cerberus has costs. Anderson doesn't trust you for one. The trial might be another where this palys a part. Shepard knows the costs and does it anyway. That is moral since it puts self and reprisal below the needs of the galaxy.

6. Getting cipher from Shiala was necessity. Shepard had to risk it regardless of stance on Shiala guilt or innocence. Recall renegade job done regardless of cost. After all no option to refuse because it would be game over.

7. Toombs situation is a he said thing with no proof. You only have the word of a very unhinged individual. While the scientist worked for Cerberus, he may have had nothing to do with Toombs. You have no way of knowing and it is strictly a flash judgement call. You have more evidence in the Shiala situation period because it takes much longer to play out. I'd meta and say he's still unhinged and threatens to kill you just cause you joined Cerberus in ME2 to save the galaxy, but as I said it proves nothing in the past.

8. There is a difference between unwilling and willing participants in crime. Shiala was willing when she joined Benezia to stop Saren. The why matters not they knew in allying with what they knew to be a criminal was risky and hence she asked for volunteers since they would have to you know do bad stuff while with Saren. Anybody that fails to grasp that cannot do simple logic. It doesn't matter whether later she was indoctrinated or under thorian control because if she refuse she wouldn't even be on Feros but the asari homeworld with all her morals inatct if she was even good to begin with (which neither of us knows yet most here are assuming she and Benezia are).

9. You killed all indoctrinated previous to Shiala if you did Noveria first so why weren't they spared because you know indoctrination is obviously get out of jail free card? All those poor innocent asari commandos and Benezia too all murdered by para-Sheps everywhere. Saren too at the end. Murder in one case murder in all. you can't pick and choose either it is an excuse for exonerating all victims which makes it murder in all cases or not.

10. The whole jist which people refuse to accept is you cannot prove innocence. We don't know if she was indoctrinated and when and what she even did. She shows guilt and remorse for something. I do take that to mean she's not all bad and has soem dignity, but still does not excuse any crime or wipe it away.

11. As I said BW put their stamp of approval on it and said it was right. This cannot be refuted.

[Drake_Hound]

Shiala definetly expect a romance with her  , as squadmate I don´t know , Shiala is a too uber character ...

Green Asari , Black Ops Commando , Thorian knowledge , ex Reaper Indoctrination ...
Man her stats and chart would go sky high , worst of all Shiala even has something that most people won´t recognise.
Accepting things as they are and willing to pay the price . unlike shepard who is still human , thus we rebel .

For those people who shot her , well Trias Politica .. You played the judge the jury and executioner .
You do not have justify anything , you just did it . what ever reason how lame the outcome you think it is .
Infact shows real character of her to just accept it , and put her fate in shepard hands .
Infact by shooting her , you just became like her with the difference is that Shiala doesn´t look for excuses.
She did what she had to do cause she believed the cause .
What makes Shiala really interesting in my eyes , was that how she went from realistic blacks op operative to repent mode model citizen  , thus making her boring in a lot of people eyes , unlike the counter part Aria , who established a syndicate empire in Omega .
Hahaha sounds so familiar doesn´t it .

But anyway by definition Shiala is one heck of interesting character in the mass effect universe .
If fleshed out , would definetly outdo Aria on the powerchart, but sadly Shiala is boring cause she the good person Good is in these days equel to boring whining gits .
While being evil people always looking for the repenting side or justification of there actions .

[Goneaviking]

@ Invincible hero (or anyone else really)

Are we actually told that Shiala is the right-hand of Benezia? The way she was tossed to the Thorian makes me think that she might have just been a nametag commando, just an expendable grunt to be discarded when convenient.