483 réponses à ce sujet

[jamesp81]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Yes. Because shooting someone who willingly joined a madman's genocidal campaign is, at its heart, cold-blooded murder

I suppose you don't believe in the right to a fair trial?

We're talking about a setting in which the ruling government has
codified legal unaccountability and extrajudicial powers for its agents. Not to put too fine a point in in, but neither the Council nor the Alliance really cares about that.

Define 'fair trial' for someone who's caught red handed and admits to having volunteered to join in someone else's malevolent machinations.

She did no such thing.

[Dean_the_Young]

jamesp81 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Yes. Because shooting someone who willingly joined a madman's genocidal campaign is, at its heart, cold-blooded murder

I suppose you don't believe in the right to a fair trial?

We're talking about a setting in which the ruling government has
codified legal unaccountability and extrajudicial powers for its agents. Not to put too fine a point in in, but neither the Council nor the Alliance really cares about that.

Define 'fair trial' for someone who's caught red handed and admits to having volunteered to join in someone else's malevolent machinations.

She did no such thing.

She did. That's why she was with Saren in the first place, in a position to be indoctrinated. She believed, from Benezia, that Saren was going to do Bad Things. Unlike many of her peers, she volunteered to join him with Benezia.

[Eurhetemec]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
She did. That's why she was with Saren in the first place, in a position to be indoctrinated. She believed, from Benezia, that Saren was going to do Bad Things. Unlike many of her peers, she volunteered to join him with Benezia.

Why do you keep lying, Dean?

Do you think repeating a lie often enough will magically make it come true? Do you think that anyone respects lying?

If not, why are you doing it. To be clear, a lie of omission is still a lie.

You say "she believed Saren was going to do Bad Things", and you omit "and wanted to help stop him, risking her life in the process". That's an outright lie.

Everyone here knows that there's a huge moral difference between joining someone in order to stop them, and joining someone in order to help them. You talk about "Western legal standards", but you completely ignore the fact that our laws make sharp distinctions between people happily aiding a crime, and people trying to work from the inside to stop it, even if they fail. By your logic, undercover cops are all as guilty as the criminals they're working with.

Also, all your "But he's a SPECTRE!" excuses apply to Saren as much as Shepard. Saren doesn't un-become a SPECTRE until long after he's indoctrinated. By your logic, even the actions he takes whilst indoctrinated are fine, because he's a SPECTRE, and contrary to what you assert, SPECTREs can't actually do what they want - they have to justify themselves to the Council. So they can do whatever the Council accepts, which is quite different from "absolutely anything". Saren was apparently particularly good at justifying massacres of various kinds to the Council.

Modifié par Eurhetemec, 27 juin 2011 - 06:25 .

[Barquiel]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Council doesn't have constitutional rights or due process. They have Spectres (you).
Moreover, 'neutral and fair' is quite often subjective: how unbiased a jourey of humans can be against an alien who helped attack a colony of humans is more than a fair question.

Shiala lives on a human colony if you spare her - the council (spectres), the alliance or the asari (on Illium) could arrest her. She is free in ME2. I think they're unbiased enough. Obviously, Renegade Shepard is the only one who thinks she committed a crime.

Modifié par Barquiel, 27 juin 2011 - 06:40 .

[jamesp81]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Yes. Because shooting someone who willingly joined a madman's genocidal campaign is, at its heart, cold-blooded murder.

To try to stop him.  Of course, that went awry once Sovereign rearranged everyone's neurons.

Benezia and Shiala weren't trying to stop Saren. They weren't even trying to betray him if he did something bad.

Benezia's intent was to support Saren, and then use trust and influence she would earn in order to mitigate him later on. But that later influence was always going to be bought by supporting him now. The entire crux of Benezia's plan is that by enabling Saren to do more, she could convince him to do less: while the later is admirable in sentiment and tragic in failure, the first was never an accident.

I'd call it a case of bad judgment, but not worthy of a bullet to the back of the head.  If there is a judgment to be made on Shiala, it's not my call anyway.  Not sure if Asari have a "jury of your peers" sort of system or not, but whatever they have, that's the proper body to deal with any possible issues there.

As the Spectre on a mission, it is your call. Second to that, the Alliance has its own claim to her. Then the Asari.

And my call is that it's cold blooded murder.  Just because the Council declares it legal doesn't mean dick.

Tyranny is not OK just because the government says it is.

[Xeranx]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

Dean we're not doing this again. =)

Apparently we are, since you're still making silly romanticizations of a sequence of events.

Then before proceeding and riding off on your high horse, respond to my comments in the other thread.  We're not doing it here now until you do.

[Eurhetemec]

jamesp81 wrote...

Tyranny is not OK just because the government says it is.

From a moral perspective, that's certainly true.

[dshoub]

Robhuzz wrote...

To be honest I'd rather BW spent that time on the existing squadmembers and romances.

[billywaffles]

dshoub wrote...

Robhuzz wrote...

To be honest I'd rather BW spent that time on the existing squadmembers and romances.

I think that all of us who spared Shiala deserve her help in return for me3 (YES, as a squadmate). It is a fair trade . I am more interested in fresh new stories than in garrus making more stupid calibrations, tbh.

[FrozenShadow]

Barquiel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Council doesn't have constitutional rights or due process. They have Spectres (you).
Moreover, 'neutral and fair' is quite often subjective: how unbiased a jourey of humans can be against an alien who helped attack a colony of humans is more than a fair question.

Shiala lives on a human colony if you spare her - the council (spectres), the alliance or the asari (on Illium) could arrest her. She is free in ME2. I think they're unbiased enough. Obviously, Renegade Shepard is the only one who thinks she committed a crime.

I think that only Shep and his/her squad at the time even knows that Shiala had done something during the time she was indoctrinated. Only others who might know something are the surviving Colonist, but I doubt they would care about what Shiala had done in past. They are just grateful for her helping them now.

So, I don't think that any sort of law enforcement forces even know that Shiala might have done some crimes. She will be safe in that matter.

Now about killing Shiala or not. Well there really is no reason to kill her, especially because she is volunttary helping Shep. But I guess that decision ultimately depends on how renegades some of the players wants to play.

[JustValiant]

 I find it interesting that everytime the discussion comes to the moral or legal aspect of killing Shiala, some players - obviously following the renegade cause - try fiercly to brand Shiala as a criminal.

From the moral point of view I can hardly see the criminal element of joining your mentor in an undercover mission to prevent a "madman" of comitting major acts of evil - to "guide him back on a more gentle path". That Benezia and Shiala failed in their mission because they underestimated Saren - or better Sovereign is hardly their fault, at least they saw him as the threat he is. It seems quite unlikely that they knew about the indoctrination before their enterprise and as subtle as it is, it was probably too late when they realized it.

Matriarchs seem to greatly respected in asari society, and although we don't know the details it seems fitting that they enjoy a high moral and legal competence. The mission was voluntarily because it was very dangerous not because it was dubious.
But all of this was already said in earlier posts by people who speak English much better than me. 

[mauro2222]

I like when people try to justify killing or a murder xD

[ApplesauceBandit]

Ahhh I'd like to see her again, Aria too. Love Asari

[WorpeX]

Interesting arguments in this thread. I agree with those who say its cold-blooded murder, although I have nothing to add beyond what was already mentioned. StarMarine nails my argument perfectly.

I think they can easily have Shiala take a more expanded role in ME3. They've already hinted upon her being a love interest and she is a commando so she would be a great addition to Shepards team. Furthermore, the Feros storyline isn't complete yet and if she is alive in your playthrough, it is quite clear that she would be apart of that. I'm hopefully that she'll receive much more than just one simple quest.

[Nerevar-as]

mauro2222 wrote...

I like when people try to justify killing or a murder xD

The things some people rationalize scare me a lot. I understand playing as a psycho, but doing that thinking your character is right?

[Dean_the_Young]

Eurhetemec wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
She did. That's why she was with Saren in the first place, in a position to be indoctrinated. She believed, from Benezia, that Saren was going to do Bad Things. Unlike many of her peers, she volunteered to join him with Benezia.

Why do you keep lying, Dean?

Do you think repeating a lie often enough will magically make it come true? Do you think that anyone respects lying?

If not, why are you doing it. To be clear, a lie of omission is still a lie.

You say "she believed Saren was going to do Bad Things", and you omit "and wanted to help stop him, risking her life in the process". That's an outright lie.

Everyone here knows that there's a huge moral difference between joining someone in order to stop them, and joining someone in order to help them. You talk about "Western legal standards", but you completely ignore the fact that our laws make sharp distinctions between people happily aiding a crime, and people trying to work from the inside to stop it, even if they fail. By your logic, undercover cops are all as guilty as the criminals they're working with.

Eurhetemec, Benezia and her followers were not out to stop Saren. They were not subversives conspiring to betray him, or stop his plans. Benezia and her followers were attempting to termper Sarens own desires by influence that would be gained by helping him.

Also, all your "But he's a SPECTRE!" excuses apply to Saren as much as Shepard. Saren doesn't un-become a SPECTRE until long after he's indoctrinated. By your logic, even the actions he takes whilst indoctrinated are fine, because he's a SPECTRE, and contrary to what you assert, SPECTREs can't actually do what they want - they have to justify themselves to the Council. So they can do whatever the Council accepts, which is quite different from "absolutely anything". Saren was apparently particularly good at justifying massacres of various kinds to the Council.

'Fine'? I don't recall saying that: his actions were certainly legal, if untolerable for the Council. Saren's unforgivable crime wasn't attacking humans: it was being caught attacking someone who had the political weight with the Council to have him hunt out to dry.

The only limit Spectres have are the political costs the Council won't tolerate. Attacking a significant species is one of them: executing prisoners is not.

[Dean_the_Young]

Barquiel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Council doesn't have constitutional rights or due process. They have Spectres (you).
Moreover, 'neutral and fair' is quite often subjective: how unbiased a jourey of humans can be against an alien who helped attack a colony of humans is more than a fair question.

Shiala lives on a human colony if you spare her - the council (spectres), the alliance or the asari (on Illium) could arrest her. She is free in ME2. I think they're unbiased enough. Obviously, Renegade Shepard is the only one who thinks she committed a crime.

Hm, I wonder what parts of that might not be relevant at the time of the decision because they aren't and can not be known...

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 27 juin 2011 - 10:28 .

[Dean_the_Young]

jamesp81 wrote...

And my call is that it's cold blooded murder.  Just because the Council declares it legal doesn't mean dick.

Neither does you calling it cold blooded murder. You could call it anything else you wanted as well, from a 'unpleasant fracas' to 'the best decision of the century', and they'd have about as much authority.

Tyranny is not OK just because the government says it is.

True, hence why the Spectres and Justicars are more and less legal abominations that should be reigned in.

(Yay for Councilor Udina, actually.)

[Dean_the_Young]

StarMarine wrote...

From the moral point of view I can hardly see the criminal element of joining your mentor in an undercover mission to prevent a "madman" of comitting major acts of evil - to "guide him back on a more gentle path". 

You have absolutely no idea how ethically repugnant that viewpoint is. Hopefully this is simply a poor expression and you meant something considerably different.

[Dean_the_Young]

mauro2222 wrote...

I like when people try to justify killing or a murder xD

It's almost like it's a franchise built around a soldier in extreme circumstances or something...

[Seboist]

Playing "Space Gestapo" was one of the highlights of ME1.

[Dean_the_Young]

Seboist wrote...

Playing "Space Gestapo" was one of the highlights of ME1.

I thought most people preferred Space Jesus?


"You are forgiven of all your sins."

"Thanks, Commander Space Jesus! I'm actually a sympathetic character who won't stray from the good and narrow any time soon!"

"I grant you mercy: go in Peace."

"I will never Sin again, Commander Space Jesus!"

[BioWareM0d13]

The Asari as a species are known for their diplomacy, and serve as the diplomatic arm of the Citadel Council. As such, it is no suprise that Benezia tried to resolve the brewing crisis with Saren diplomatically.

The only crime Shiala was guilty of was the 'crime' of loyalty to her Matriarch and the 'crime' of underestimating Saren. They saw him as the primary threat rather than simply a puppet being used by the Reapers, and had no understanding of indoctrination.

The killing of Shiala is one of the least justifiable Renegade actions in both games, IMO. Or least it is if carried out as some form of punishment. The killing is understandable if Shepard fears she can't be cured of indoctrination.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 27 juin 2011 - 10:49 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Han Shot First wrote...

The Asari as a species are known for their diplomacy, and serve as the diplomatic arm of the Citadel Council. As such, it is no suprise that Benezia tried to resolve the brewing crisis with Saren diplomatically.

The only crime Shiala was guilty of was the 'crime' of loyalty to her Matriarch and the 'crime' of underestimating Saren. They saw him as the threat rather than simply a puppet being used by the Reapers, and had no understanding of indoctrination.

When loyalty leads you towards willing complicity in crime, you are guilty of said crime. When willing complicity in one crime results in even unintended expansion into other crimes, you are just as guilty of those crimes as well.

This is, like, hundreds if not thousands of years of law and ethics here. Following someone you like or respect isn't a pass or a pardon in illegal actions. Short of religious law, it never has been.

[BioWareM0d13]

When loyalty leads you towards willing complicity in crime, you are guilty of said crime. When willing complicity in one crime results in even unintended expansion into other crimes, you are just as guilty of those crimes as well.

This is, like, hundreds if not thousands of years of law and ethics here. Following someone you like or respect isn't a pass or a pardon in illegal actions. Short of religious law, it never has been.

Benezia and the Asari commandos accompanying her weren't willingly complicit in any crimes. Benezia went to Saren to get him to stand down, not to join him. They only became complicit in his crimes after they were indoctrinated and no longer had free will.