25715 réponses à ce sujet

[darthoptimus003]

just wished my femshep could have had ash

[Sperizer]

darthoptimus003 wrote...

just wished my femshep could have had ash

Me too. 

I doubt we'll ever get a reasonable answer for only one Virmire survivor swinging both ways. 

[Kunari801]

Digitalis32 wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

They're different development teams, but I thought this was a nice response over on the Dragon Age forums from one of their devs - in light of the persistent thread that hangs around here about an option in character creation to declare sexuality:

well you can hardly ask for a better response than that. Bioware is sticking to their guns, it is a shame they didn't do it from the start with ME1

Wow, way to go BioWare!

[Abispa]

ElitePinecone wrote...

*Tragic Snip.*

Thank you for posting the Bioware response to the demand for the gay toggle. It's such a stupid and offensive idea for a "Mature" RPG that I really wish it would go away.

I am curious to see how the gamer responses to ME3 exclusive gay/straight LIs and DA2 inclusive bisexual LIs are going to affect future Bioware RPGs. And even other companies' RPGs since s/s romance options seem to be on the table for Bethesda and Capcom as well.

I really liked Steve and Samantha. I did. They looked good and were written well enough to be likable (and I am a HUGE fan of Samantha's VA). I'm so happy that they have their fans. But even their fans have observed that their romances could've used more interaction with Shepard and company. I have also read way too many fans of the other LIs complaining that their LIs were shafted in quality time and blaming s/s exclusive LIs from taking way from their straight options.

As a straight Ashley fan myself, I have to admit that I have found her to be... cold and distant in this game. Almost an afterthought even in the male Shepard's game. Her participation in female Shepard's game is even worse, as her "close friendship" is easily put to shame by Garrus and Tali. I'll leave Liara out of this observations since she is EVERYBODY'S Super BFF no matter who you romanced.

Would her relationship with Shepard have been given more quality moments, substance, if she had been "retcon" as a pansexual LI? Could Kaidan have gotten even more interaction if Steve weren't in the game? Would s/s xenophiles have had more attachment to Garrus and Tali, and even more interaction if they were revealed to be pansexual LIs?

I used "pansexual" instead of "bisexual" since it could be argued that if these characters were "truly" bisexual they would have been options since ME1 or ME2, at the same time they were "straight" options. I know that is NOT how it works IRL, but in a video game where the decision to make a character a LI is an artificial fan-service, I don't expect love in VG RPGs to be entirely realistic.

[ElitePinecone]

Abispa wrote...
I have also read way too many fans of the other LIs complaining that their LIs were shafted in quality time and blaming s/s exclusive LIs from taking way from their straight options.

Nobody is ever going to be happy with the amount of dialogue, ever. If they like a character, that character will never have too much LI interaction. 

I don't know - you can always argue that "x and y characters don't have enough dialogue, why didn't Bioware put more in?", but they have a finite VA and word budget, finite time and space, and frankly I'm sure the romances were far down on their list of priorities, which makes sense. 

Saying things like "Ashley and Kaidan would have more dialogue if they were both s/s LIs and Steve/Sam weren't in the game" is like saying they'd get more dialogue if they'd cut out Tuchanka and used the cinematics budget on recording a thousand more lines. 

Ultimately the development priorities are Bioware's to determine and I think the argument that some characters take away dialogue from others is silly.

[bas_kon]

I agree, Steve and Sam didn't take that much of resources. IMO, it was Liara the one who usurped other LIs scenes.

I mean, I'm glad for Liara's fans who CHOSE to romance her, but I didn't want her to go to the captain's cabin everytime my Shepards dreamed or something happened especially when there's already an active romance who is not her (I even was afraid, she was gonna storm the cabin right after the dream following the romance scene, while cuddling with other LI) and I hate to see her face at the end everytime I don't romance Kaidan (Ash is canonically "Ashes" to me lol) .

But yes, I think it's the last chapter and we know we won't be able to see/talk to our beloved characters again, thus we'll never gonna have enough dialogue and interactions no matter how much is actually there.

Modifié par bas_kon, 21 mai 2012 - 02:58 .

[Frozen83]

bas_kon wrote...

(I even was afraid, she was gonna storm the cabin right after the dream following the romance scene, while cuddling with other LI) 

Ummm, that would actually be pretty cool! 
Liara: I hope I'm not disturbing.
Shep: Not at all. Can you pass me some tissues from the table?
LI: Yeah, for me to... Thanx!
Shep: And while you're here, could you make us some coffee?
Liara: Of couse, no problem.
*boils water with biotics, adds instant coffee with hands*
Liara: So, Shepard, any interesting dreams lately?
Shep: No, nothing special. A kid burning, some sour yellow, oily shadows, you know, the usual.
M.

[Abispa]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Abispa wrote...
I have also read way too many fans of the other LIs complaining that their LIs were shafted in quality time and blaming s/s exclusive LIs from taking way from their straight options.

Nobody is ever going to be happy with the amount of dialogue, ever. If they like a character, that character will never have too much LI interaction. 

I don't know - you can always argue that "x and y characters don't have enough dialogue, why didn't Bioware put more in?", but they have a finite VA and word budget, finite time and space, and frankly I'm sure the romances were far down on their list of priorities, which makes sense. 

Saying things like "Ashley and Kaidan would have more dialogue if they were both s/s LIs and Steve/Sam weren't in the game" is like saying they'd get more dialogue if they'd cut out Tuchanka and used the cinematics budget on recording a thousand more lines.

Not quite. At least, not for me. I assume that the mission budget for the game is separate from the character budget. And if given a choice between more "quality time" with my favorite LI and blowing stuff up, I'll definitely choose blowing stuff up in a ME game. That is MOSTLY what I'm here for. -- Abispa.

Ultimately the development priorities are Bioware's to determine and I think the argument that some characters take away dialogue from others is silly.

The more characters you add to a series, especially with VA, the less you can devote to each character. As I have said MANY times in the past, I do NOT want Bioware games to become overly focused on romances and I believe that it is better to have fewer LIs with more options than having a huge cast with limited options. Having seen how the VERY flawed DA2 handled it and the MUCH BETTER ME3 handled it, I say I prefer DA2.

I do like Steve and Sam, by the way. Heck, I admit I like them (in ME3) more than 75% of the rest of the cast. That is partially due to the fact that they are pretty well written, but mostly because I wasn't happy with how much the cast was handled.

I do not blame the limited character time on s/s newbies as much as I do on the INSANE decision for Bioware to create a "suicide squad" of LIs for ME2 who may, or may not, have survived into this game and thus take away resources from the permanent cast even though some players may never see them.

Modifié par Abispa, 21 mai 2012 - 09:35 .

[Eromenos]

Kunari801 wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

...The president stressed that this is a personal position, and that he still supports the concept of states deciding the issue on their own. 

This time I'm not even the one who had to write "cop-out."

It's at least better than the treatment by the last President.  It's not a policy change but it's something at least.  

That something is called political currency. Trot out Biden to issue a gaffe, and it sets the stage for Obama to swoop in under false pretenses to attract lesser blame onto himself then he would in the case of "normal circumstances." This lended Obama the image and credibility of simply tending to White House solidarity for a nobler/greater/selfless mandate. Conclusion: it's all about him, and queer people's issues were just collateral as part of his campaign. It's not that we got nothing out of what happened, but let's be clear: Obama profited more out of it than any of us did, including future generations. If he were serious about this, he wouldn't have made this a game with theatrics. And he would not have hemmed and hawed and dragged his feet until Election Year to say a little something that was remarkably less risky than it first appeared.

I agree with you(and most people) that his predecessor was a greater evil against queer issues. But someone who is relatively preferrable still doesn't deserve whitewashing excuses made on his/her behalf.

Different topic: Regarding the post from Epler, representing DA's official stance on S/S romances, I am very impressed. If only that sentiment could be stretched to include all of BioWare. The current glaring issue left is ToR. Actually the ME movie or movies have also yet to announce where they stand.

Modifié par Eromenos, 22 mai 2012 - 05:22 .

[i am good]

It sucks you can't romance tali as a femshep but i did get into a relationship with samantha traynor

[Terrorize69]

social.bioware.com/864179/polls/34479/

How many would be intrested in this same sex romance? 

[HopHazzard]

Terrorize69 wrote...

social.bioware.com/864179/polls/34479/

How many would be intrested in this same sex romance? 

In the sprit of inclusiveness and in solidarity for my fellow s/s fans, I voted yes. Even though I will never romance Tali ever regardless of my Shepard's gender.

[bas_kon]

I voted yes cause I want all bi option, so everyone can be what they want and romance who they want.
Though I only "gibbed romanced" Tali once (with m!shep), just to leave her and hear her say my actual LI's name (she's the only one who acknowledges them besides Steve, afaik) and my only femshep died in ME2 leaving Liara as her widow.

Btw, does someone know if Kelly does acknowledge your romance with another LI, once you're committed? She didn't in my game.

[Quething]

Abispa wrote...
The more characters you add to a series, especially with VA, the less you can devote to each character. As I have said MANY times in the past, I do NOT want Bioware games to become overly focused on romances and I believe that it is better to have fewer LIs with more options than having a huge cast with limited options. Having seen how the VERY flawed DA2 handled it and the MUCH BETTER ME3 handled it, I say I prefer DA2.

I do like Steve and Sam, by the way. Heck, I admit I like them (in ME3) more than 75% of the rest of the cast. That is partially due to the fact that they are pretty well written, but mostly because I wasn't happy with how much the cast was handled.

I do not blame the limited character time on s/s newbies as much as I do on the INSANE decision for Bioware to create a "suicide squad" of LIs for ME2 who may, or may not, have survived into this game and thus take away resources from the permanent cast even though some players may never see them.

I think it's reasonable to "blame" Sam and Steve to a degree, though obviously they have no agency, being video characters, so blame means something slightly different than the usual in this sense. I don't think there's any argument left over the obvious fact that ME2's 12-man crew was a major factor in the fact that Miranda, one of your most talkative and long-term squadmates, has as much dialog total as Ash or Kaidan got in one conversation in ME1, where only six characters mattered and only three got the lion's share of dev time required by a love interest. And Sam and Steve change the ME3 requirements from six to eight (or seven to nine when you count Joker). That's going to influence available resources, absolutely regardless of anything that happened or any decisions made by devs in ME2.

That said, I doubt that they'd have treated Ash, or Thane, or Jacob, with any care or respect even without Sam and Steve present. There are definitely other huge reasons most squadmates got shafted in ME3, and the absolutely most significant one is simply that BioWare is no longer interested in making games like ME1 and DA:O that offer long, complex, deeply-developed conversations between the player and her various companions.

[BrookerT]

Quething wrote...

Abispa wrote...
The more characters you add to a series, especially with VA, the less you can devote to each character. As I have said MANY times in the past, I do NOT want Bioware games to become overly focused on romances and I believe that it is better to have fewer LIs with more options than having a huge cast with limited options. Having seen how the VERY flawed DA2 handled it and the MUCH BETTER ME3 handled it, I say I prefer DA2.

I do like Steve and Sam, by the way. Heck, I admit I like them (in ME3) more than 75% of the rest of the cast. That is partially due to the fact that they are pretty well written, but mostly because I wasn't happy with how much the cast was handled.

I do not blame the limited character time on s/s newbies as much as I do on the INSANE decision for Bioware to create a "suicide squad" of LIs for ME2 who may, or may not, have survived into this game and thus take away resources from the permanent cast even though some players may never see them.

I think it's reasonable to "blame" Sam and Steve to a degree, though obviously they have no agency, being video characters, so blame means something slightly different than the usual in this sense. I don't think there's any argument left over the obvious fact that ME2's 12-man crew was a major factor in the fact that Miranda, one of your most talkative and long-term squadmates, has as much dialog total as Ash or Kaidan got in one conversation in ME1, where only six characters mattered and only three got the lion's share of dev time required by a love interest. And Sam and Steve change the ME3 requirements from six to eight (or seven to nine when you count Joker). That's going to influence available resources, absolutely regardless of anything that happened or any decisions made by devs in ME2.

That said, I doubt that they'd have treated Ash, or Thane, or Jacob, with any care or respect even without Sam and Steve present. There are definitely other huge reasons most squadmates got shafted in ME3, and the absolutely most significant one is simply that BioWare is no longer interested in making games like ME1 and DA:O that offer long, complex, deeply-developed conversations between the player and her various companions.

I thorougly disagree witht the boulded part. Dragon Age 2 had fantastic conversations between player and companions. Fenris' conversations are as comlex, if not moreso than dragon age. Every Companion in that game had very deeply developed conversations with some genuine variation thanks to the rivalry system. Mass Effect 3 had less long conversations, but some fantastic pieces like Tali in Shepards Cabin and Shepard revealing to Garrus he sabotaged the genophage.

[Frozen83]

BrookerT wrote...
I thorougly disagree witht the boulded part. Dragon Age 2 had fantastic conversations between player and companions. Fenris' conversations are as comlex, if not moreso than dragon age. Every Companion in that game had very deeply developed conversations with some genuine variation thanks to the rivalry system. Mass Effect 3 had less long conversations, but some fantastic pieces like Tali in Shepards Cabin and Shepard revealing to Garrus he sabotaged the genophage.

OK. You can force Anders to come clean about "salpetre" and "dragonstone", he says "no, it is not por a potion"... You can really bully him into this. It was nicely done, but... In the end he still blows up the Chantry. You cannot influence the endevents. I think that is the major difference between DAO and other games. I don't mind it, though, in ME series - you need to destroy the reapers. Period. But some obtion about HOW you destroy them... And this is offtopic... But still, You have to admit that the conversation options and their consequences were more varied in DAO than in ME series or DA2. M.
p.s. sorry fot the typos, it is late here and my contacts are really starting to hurt my eyes

Modifié par Frozen83, 30 mai 2012 - 10:03 .

[AmyMac]

HopHazzard wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

social.bioware.com/864179/polls/34479/

How many would be intrested in this same sex romance? 

In the sprit of inclusiveness and in solidarity for my fellow s/s fans, I voted yes. Even though I will never romance Tali ever regardless of my Shepard's gender.

+1
I hate Tali, routinely got her killed in ME2, and said bye-bye to the quarians 2 out of 3 of my ME3 playthroughs ... but voted yes for the same reason as Terrorize.

[Quething]

BrookerT wrote...

I thorougly disagree witht the boulded part. Dragon Age 2 had fantastic conversations between player and companions. Fenris' conversations are as comlex, if not moreso than dragon age. Every Companion in that game had very deeply developed conversations with some genuine variation thanks to the rivalry system. Mass Effect 3 had less long conversations, but some fantastic pieces like Tali in Shepards Cabin and Shepard revealing to Garrus he sabotaged the genophage.

DA2 was wildly variable. Aveline is excellent in terms of Aveline, though unlike a DA:O or ME1 companion she offers little opportunity to explore Hawke's past and worldview. Fenris is pretty good; he's nowhere near on the level of, say, Alistair or Morrigan, but we do at least get an interesting backstory from him, and he at least has two different if deeply intertwined topics you can discuss with him, even if you never get a chance to discuss anything else. Anders is crap, by the end of the game we know absolutely nothing about him that isn't on the direct topic of MAGE OPPRESHUN. In every case, from Aveline to Anders, conversations are 90% of the time about as long as Joker's were in ME1. Not Ashley's, not Kaidan's, not as long as Alistar or Zevran's, but as long as Jokers'; one topic, four or five lines from Hawke (with no variation whatsoever in the response by the NPC), two or three times that from the conversation partner. In every case, the NPC's lines are the same in every playthrough, with only minor variance for Friend/Rivalry (compare to ME1, where two Paragon Sheps can have six different relationships with Ashley between them). In no cases can Hawke initiate a conversation; that distinction is apparently reserved for people like Cullen and Elegant, while Hawke's actual friends and lovers have time for her only at their own leisure.

There is no conversation in ME3 that can be said to be "good" in the old-school BioWare sense, because regardless of the length or variability of the NPC's lines (generally poor on the first count and incredibly poor on the second), Shep's lines are 90% out of the player's control.

(... not that I'm bitter or anything )

Modifié par Quething, 30 mai 2012 - 10:45 .

[Hvlukas]

 I'm totally new on these boards, and I posted quite a lengthy all-purpose-feedback post in another thread, and now I realize, that portions of my post maybe should've been posted in this thread, so if no one mind, here's my two cents:

Mass Effect attracted me for more reasons than good reputation and reviews. One thing is that I quite like sci fi, another thing is, that I’m gay. Yeah, it may sound shallow to be attracted to a game and throwing money at it, because of sexuality, but ultimately it’s a question of being able to identify oneself with the characters. Most games out there doesn’t want to admit that I guy like me exist, and if they do, it feels more like pandering or trying to be funny. I don’t think most heterosexuals think about stuff like this, but it IS actually important to be able to reflect yourself in games, movies, ect. and not just be ignored or rejected, so this is where Mass Effect 3 did it right. Whoever wrote Cortez’s dialogue and story – give him a raise. He did it just right! This character was who he was, and his sexuality was only really a question of a word like “he” over she. That made Mass Effect a game worth my money, because suddenly I, as a player, didn’t have to sit in the back of the bus, suddenly, I was allowed to exist in a thing I paid money to participate in.

I’ve read a few post about people wanting everybody to be bisexual and romancable. If Mass Effect, as a universe and a game, goes forward from here on, I’d put my two cents in and say: Don’t do that. I'd feel the writing
would be worse, if every character had to omit details of their lives because the writers had to make them blank and bland enough for everybody’s tastes. Furthermore and beyond the point of writing is, that the individual players around the world connects to different characters for different reasons. I had a strong reaction to Cortez for instance, because of who I am and the sexuality I brought into my story. It is sort of having a black man or woman in the game: Maybe you as a black player aren't much interested in interacting with the black characters, but you relate and invest much more of yourself, when you realize, that this universe includes people who are also like you.

And while I’m at it, I have to just quickly praise how James Vega and Steve Cortez were written to interact with each other. That was a pitch perfect chatter you overhear them have with one another, completely true to life. One thing is that Cortez’s sexuality isn’t an “issue”, but just a fact of life, and therefore something a character like James Vega picks up on and has fun with. Another thing achieved with the two character’s working relationship with each other, is to disarm the negative stereotype that straight white men have to be ragingly stupid homophobes. Good job, and in fewer dialogue sentences than it took for me to praise it. 


A few suggestions for a (hopefully, fingers crossed) future Mass Effect game trilogy:

1) I realize that you can’t write every demographic into a game. You can’t have two homosexuals, two bisexuals and two straights of each gender combined with every human race PLUS several species from across the galaxy in ONE game, without having to have a crew of around 25 interactive members. That would suck for everybody, players and developers. However, to me it seems sort of natural that I didn’t encounter a gay man in the Mass Effect series until the third came out. Even though we are apparently some 300-600 million world wide, there’s just a certain ratio to straight people. So if you’d ever find yourself planning a new trilogy, I’d rather have smaller crews at my command, and meeting different types of people through out the series. Maybe I encounter a lesbian in the 2nd, maybe in the first? As long as the series establishes, that “those” kind of people exists, though they are not around just now, I’d be okay with having to wait for my personal hero to meet his right man/woman. Slipping in lines here and there of past lives lived, allows me as a player to reckognize the universe as inclusive. One way to do this is to have your Shepard try his luck with, say, Jacob in Mass Effect 2, to be rejected in a friendly manner .. something that would tell me as a player, that homosexuality does exist in this universe, Jacob just happens not to be one.

2) But while I’m still talking sexuality, I thought that Mass Effect 1 and 2, failed in implementing the successful, more rich palette of sexuality that Mass effect 3 had. Ashley and Kaiden should have been bisexuals, and through out the series a male and female major character should   always have been bisexual, as characters who can appeal to the widest demographic possible, but also own up to their own sexuality. I miss Kaiden mentioning a boyfriend in his past to set up a world where such things are part of it. I know I’m a minority, but Kaidens gay turn in my version of the events of Mass Effect 3 would have been more fluent and natural, if such desires had always been part of him. And playing a straight female Shepard in a relationship with Kaiden would still have you know, that once, Kaiden had a boyfriend.  I would have found Shepard and Kaiden(and Ashley)’s fall out in Mass Effect 2 more profound, if the story had enabled them to possibly be more than just friends. 
(Also, I really liked the writing and voice acting of Kaiden, and as a gay player, I'd have romanced Kaiden from Mass Effect 1, followed it through 'til the end in Mass Effect 3 and would have had a greater story. That is, if Bioware would have allowed me. Or at least let me have tried and be denied by Kaiden).

3) On romances in broader terms. I found that the romances Shepard could have had very little to do with the game, which I thought was a bit of a let down. I realize at some point the developer must figure out if it’s the-Love-Story-Titanic they are making, or the Cool-big-Machine-Sinking-Titanic they are making. But still, I’d wish the romances felt little more than a quick one-nighter between missions. I would personally like it, if a romance turned into a mission-of-sorts, in the sense, that I could imagine the two lovers go to some “romantic” desolate place just for themselves, no guns or amour, just condoms and toothbrushes, but it all goes to hell, when bad guys attack and they have to sneak and fight their way back to the equivalent of Normandy. This would give players more of a reason to try and romance characters in his or her crew, as such a mission wouldn't be unlocked otherwise.

Another scenario I thought I’d see, but didn’t, was that Shepard would at some point have to choose between either saving his or her love, OR saving something big from something arbitrary,grand evil. I sort-a envision how a love could start in the 1st installment, be developed in a 2nd, and when the player is finally invested so much in the characters and emotionally attached to his or her Shepard-romance, have the cruel choise of killing his or her loved one or killing an entire planet (or something something). I’d imagine I’d be quite a punch in the bowls of the player.

Modifié par Hvlukas, 31 mai 2012 - 09:58 .

[ElitePinecone]

Hvlukas wrote...
3) On romances in broader terms. I found that the romances Shepard could have had very little to do with the game, which I thought was a bit of a let down. I realize at some point the developer must figure out if it’s the-Love-Story-Titanic they are making, or the Cool-big-Machine-Sinking-Titanic they are making. But still, I’d wish the romances felt little more than a quick one-nighter between missions. I would personally like it, if a romance turned into a mission-of-sorts,

We only have a few snippets of developer comments to go on, but I think that as well as resource limits (is there a point in making endgame content with an LI, or a trilogy-spanning romance arc, when Bioware's stats show 50% of people didn't even finish ME2?) there's a certain reluctance to add romance content that exists on its own, rather than making it a completely optional sidebar to a much more prominant main story. It's why all the "romance DLC!!" threads never seem to get anywhere.

I'm a bit conflicted: certainly there's a market for more romance content but I honestly don't think it's the same one as the people who get invested in the sci-fi story or buy it for the pew-pew, and there's even a risk that over-marketing the romance side of the game alienates everyone who sees it as unnecessary or even strange. 

I definitely think more *integrated* romances are a good thing; DA does this to a certain extent by having other characters comment on any LIs and having (on some occasions) special dialogue when LIs are present at story events or feature in plot missions. Having the romance arc feel much more naturally woven into the story (as in, it feels like the requisite love interest finitethat dominate most epics/hero storytelling, instead of a bunch of unrelated conversations) would be an improvement.

But there's only a limited budget for parts of the game, and limited developer attention - and I think romances are a fair way down on the priority list, gven that they've never, ever been a leading marketing feature.  

(And frankly, given the state of the major plots lately I'd love it if the writing attention was spent on at least establishing a story that makes sense...)

[Hvlukas]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Hvlukas wrote...
3) On romances in broader terms. I found that the romances Shepard could have had very little to do with the game, which I thought was a bit of a let down. I realize at some point the developer must figure out if it’s the-Love-Story-Titanic they are making, or the Cool-big-Machine-Sinking-Titanic they are making. But still, I’d wish the romances felt little more than a quick one-nighter between missions. I would personally like it, if a romance turned into a mission-of-sorts,

We only have a few snippets of developer comments to go on, but I think that as well as resource limits (is there a point in making endgame content with an LI, or a trilogy-spanning romance arc, when Bioware's stats show 50% of people didn't even finish ME2?) there's a certain reluctance to add romance content that exists on its own, rather than making it a completely optional sidebar to a much more prominant main story. It's why all the "romance DLC!!" threads never seem to get anywhere.

I'm a bit conflicted: certainly there's a market for more romance content but I honestly don't think it's the same one as the people who get invested in the sci-fi story or buy it for the pew-pew, and there's even a risk that over-marketing the romance side of the game alienates everyone who sees it as unnecessary or even strange. 

I definitely think more *integrated* romances are a good thing; DA does this to a certain extent by having other characters comment on any LIs and having (on some occasions) special dialogue when LIs are present at story events or feature in plot missions. Having the romance arc feel much more naturally woven into the story (as in, it feels like the requisite love interest finitethat dominate most epics/hero storytelling, instead of a bunch of unrelated conversations) would be an improvement.

But there's only a limited budget for parts of the game, and limited developer attention - and I think romances are a fair way down on the priority list, gven that they've never, ever been a leading marketing feature.  

Yeah, I guess you're right. I wouldn't want to play Mass Effect in the first place, if it was just "Galactic Love Boat OhAndStuffAboutAliensToo", even though the sexual diversity was initially what actually made me buy the game in the first place (so, in essence, I got in to it because of the inclusiveness, and stayed because of the game itself).
 
That's why I'm thinking of romances unlocking a side-mission. Just to make it mean more, and actually make it worthwhile for the player to romance anybody  at all beyond the point of seeing how X looks naked with Y and if Liara shows sideboob. A player with no romances would never see the mission (but perhaps something else instead?).

The story's ending and possible plot holes, well... That's almost a forum in itself, isn't it?

Modifié par Hvlukas, 31 mai 2012 - 11:19 .

[Bowie Hawkins]

Sperizer wrote...

I doubt we'll ever get a reasonable answer for only one Virmire survivor swinging both ways. 

The wanted to put the "bi" in "biotic"?

[Frozen83]

I guess somehow they figured that there are more gay gamers who save Kaidan than lesbian ones who save Ash. I don't know the numbers, but I guess BW did some research. Or maybe they just tossed a coin... M.

[ElitePinecone]

The devs have access to pretty much every decision every player has ever picked in all three games, if you agreed to send the telemetry in the options screen. It's as specific as pinpointing certain dialogue choices.

They've known about the amount of ME1-maleShepards-who-saved-Kaidan and ME1-femaleShepards-who-saved-Ashley for like, five years. No need to do any research!

But even so, there are many other possible reasons why Ashley wasn't an f/f option in ME3. It's not necessarily about audience size. We don't know, we probably won't know, and I don't really see the point in speculating about it.

[Quething]

Frozen83 wrote...

I guess somehow they figured that there are more gay gamers who save Kaidan than lesbian ones who save Ash. I don't know the numbers, but I guess BW did some research. Or maybe they just tossed a coin... M.

I think it's a feedback thing. The kind of dudebros who go "EW WTF GAY ICK GET IT AWAY FROM ME THAT STUFF IS JUST WRONG, MAN".... already hated Kaidan. And probably already thought he was kinda gay. So there was no reason to think they'd give a damn if Kaidan could actually hook up with dude!Shep; he was probably dead for them anyway, and it wasn't like, even if he weren't, that any part of the game they cared about was being changed in a way that would lose their support as fans. Meanwhile, among Kaidan's fans, I'm sure there were some who didn't want him to be bi, but the majority, as far as I could ever tell, were pretty much of the opinion that "I don't play dude!Shep anyway, why would I even care?" at worst, and "yay yaoi!" at best.

Those dudebros, though? They love Ash. If you ever wandered into the old Ash thread, before the ME3 one, and had the absolute gall to suggest that maybe Ash and femShep would be good together, you had best bring your asbestos panties and pull 'em on real snug, first. I found out after ME3 came out that actually, a huge number of people, queer fans especially, had wanted Ash for their femSheps. Why did I, a queer Ash fan, somehow not know this before ME3? Simple: there was nowhere that it was safe to talk about. Nowhere you wouldn't get shouted down, either by people who hated Ash, or people who loved her a little too much.

Now, does this mean the majority of Ash fans would have hated it, and BioWare was right to not do so, because it pleased the larger part of her fanbase? Or does it mean that BioWare didn't know that that wasn't the majority of Ashley's fanbase, because no one did, because how could they when the opposition viciously shut them down every time they tried to speak in a forum BioWare might actually see? I don't know. I do know that fan feedback was a factor. It's something BioWare's always been really good about. It's what gave us dextro romances in ME2, and weapon mods in ME3. They do listen and they do adjust. They picked Kaidan and not Ash for a reason, and part of that reason, if not most, was most definitely a belief that the majority of the fanbase would be happy with that decision. I don't think they were right, but I have only biased anectdata to back me up.

(There's also the possibility they totally went the wrong-ass direction in trying to ameliorate the "stop making Ash and Kaidan identical clones" complaint. Still a result of poor implementation of feedback response, though.)

Modifié par Quething, 01 juin 2012 - 07:27 .