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[Abispa]

bleetman wrote...

And then Shepard would punch them in the face.

Chris Hudson has cleverly shown us all that such a reaction is only appropriate for female reporters.

[bleetman]

Abispa wrote...

I always took that scene as a "you didn't do anything wrong" rather than "you made THE good decision." Given Vega's perspective on that mission, it was a logical and understandable decision to make.

That depends entirely on your particular perception. I've a Shepard or two out there who'd never have considered that to be a reasonable decision, and would've readily chewed him out over it.

But I basically can't ever import those, any more than I can import my Cerberus supporting renedouche. I might as well not bother. They're not who they used to be.

Modifié par bleetman, 05 juin 2012 - 10:42 .

[Quething]

Yeah, like Bleet says, that doesn't really help, because main!Shep does, in fact, believe he did do something badly wrong there.

Abispa wrote...

Yeah, he's a dog, which would have made it a bit less of sexual harassment on Shepard's part if he WAS a LI for female Shepard. Otherwise they would have him stumbling over himself like past LIs or have female Shepard go into predator mode like she can with Kelly and Samantha. In hindsight I would have preferred if he were a LI for female Shepard ALONG WITH the option tell him to shape up and be professional. And if he were a muscle-bound Zevran and treated male Shepard like he does female Shepard, this thread would be so... damn... sad/awesome...

Can you imagine a scene where Vega looks down and says something like, "Wow! Look at the size of your unit! Just sayin'!"

I can now, and it is wonderful.

The thing with Vega that baffles me is that they actually did give you the option to shut down the nickname. Which is, pretty clearly, the point at which you decide your relationship with him, right? Same as with Kelly in 2; either you agree to call her Kelly, and she gets all personal with you and spills her... Kelly-ness... all over you for the rest of the game, or you tell her "lolno" and she's professional and straightforward from there on out. If you, for whatever bizarre reason, actually enjoy a guy treating you like a piece of meat and want the flirtation, you say "sure, go ahead, Beefstick McManly, call me Lola!" and encourage his disrespectful douchebaggery.

But you tell him "fuck no" and... he still harasses and/or flirts with you. Why on earth does the rest of the relationship not change at that point? And why do I never get to call out Joker or Donnelly? Who is running BioWare these days, and when did they forget that they used to respect female gamers?

Also, is your save where Donnelly's not an asswipe also your Kaidan save? There's a dialog bug where most of the engineering lines don't fire if you're not at a certain level of friendly with Ash.

Modifié par Quething, 05 juin 2012 - 10:49 .

[Abispa]

bleetman wrote...

Abispa wrote...

I always took that scene as a "you didn't do anything wrong" rather than "you made THE good decision." Given Vega's perspective on that mission, it was a logical and understandable decision to make.

That depends entirely on your particular perception. I've a Shepard or two out there who'd never have considered that to be a reasonable decision, and would've readily chewed him out over it.

But I basically can't ever import those, any more than I can import my Cerberus supporting renedouche. I might as well not bother. They're not who they used to be.

I've seen a lot of people complain that Shepard seems to gloss over too many problems in this game where you can be more disagreeable in the past. I myself do not mind it in THIS game since the Reaper invasion is overwhelming the galaxy and virtually every Shepard would be forced to swallow a lot of guff from potential allies no matter  how annoying they may be. Hell, you can even work with Wreav...

[Abispa]

Quething wrote...

Also, is your save where Donnelly's not an asswipe also your Kaidan save? There's a dialog bug where most of the engineering lines don't fire if you're not at a certain level of friendly with Ash.

Hmm. Ashley survives in most of my saves, and now that you mention it, I believe he was a non stop perv when I was in my series long romance with Ashley.

If only there were a way to just have Gabby and Adams...

[Abispa]

Quething wrote...

But you tell him "fuck no" and... he still harasses and/or flirts with you. Why on earth does the rest of the relationship not change at that point? And why do I never get to call out Joker or Donnelly? Who is running BioWare these days, and when did they forget that they used to respect female gamers?

I actually don't mind it if Bioware gives a game a bunch of jackasses, even if they're on the hero's team. But I agree with you that there should be an option for the hero to lay down the law, especially to those under his/her command.

[bleetman]

Abispa wrote...

I've seen a lot of people complain that Shepard seems to gloss over too many problems in this game where you can be more disagreeable in the past. I myself do not mind it in THIS game since the Reaper invasion is overwhelming the galaxy and virtually every Shepard would be forced to swallow a lot of guff from potential allies no matter  how annoying they may be. Hell, you can even work with Wreav...

Yes, but there's a difference between not antagonising a particular racial or factional leader for the sake of securing their assistance (Balak being a good example, and one that - at least in the import I used where she shot him and left him to bleed to death - Shepard is clearly only doing through gritted teeth) and not telling an Alliance marine under Shepards direct command that they screwed up.

Or hell, how about just ordering him to stop staring at her breasts. He's not that beneficial to the war effort.

Modifié par bleetman, 05 juin 2012 - 11:06 .

[Tiberis]

Abispa wrote...

I have to admit that I probably like Vega more than I should because his thread was one of the most fun on the BSN for the longest time pre-game release. The guy was obviously designed to be the Halo-dude in the game, but his thread was the girly-est and gay-est thread in existence since most fans assumed he would be a LI for female and/or the Bioware "bi" guy.

Yeah, he's a dog, which would have made it a bit less of sexual harassment on Shepard's part if he WAS a LI for female Shepard. Otherwise they would have him stumbling over himself like past LIs or have female Shepard go into predator mode like she can with Kelly and Samantha. In hindsight I would have preferred if he were a LI for female Shepard ALONG WITH the option tell him to shape up and be professional. And if he were a muscle-bound Zevran and treated male Shepard like he does female Shepard, this thread would be so... damn... sad/awesome...

Can you imagine a scene where Vega looks down and says something like, "Wow! Look at the size of your unit! Just sayin'!"

I'm a guy,  and I've played femShep in ME3 (only partly though). I actually felt odd with the way he talked to femShep and I was initially inclined to tell him to shove the nickname up his bum; but I was going for a mostly paragon Shepard. I absolutely love him while playing my usual Sheploo. I kind of wish he was a bi LI though.

[Abispa]

bleetman wrote...

Or hell, how about just ordering him to stop staring at her breasts. He's not that beneficial to the war effort.

Unless you totally wiped out the suicide squad in ME2. You NEED Vega. Your decisions have consequences...

[Quething]

bleetman wrote...

He's not that beneficial to the war effort.

Yeah, that's the other thing I don't get about Vega. Shep has known him for like five minutes, has seen him fight for three, and is suddenly like "you're a hell of a soldier and this war needs you." Later in the game they're like "they want him in N7!" which, you know, is not even how that works even a little but whatever. He's sold to us as this amazing, supercompetent warrior who's so incredibly good at his job!

Except, we never see even a scrap of evidence for it. It's a completely informed ability. No cutscenes, no heroic moments... even the gameplay doesn't bear it out, he makes the top three in just about every "which squadmate is most useless" discussion I've ever seen. The one thing we learn about him as a soldier is a time when he totally failed - a sort of combination Torfan/Akuze without the "impossible odds" credit of one or the "accomplished a meaningful and long-lasting objective" of the other.

Much as I love both VS, I think there's room to question whether they merit the Spectre appointment in ME3, but at least with them we've seen them fight, seen them survive impossible odds, and can count "helped save the galaxy" on their resume. Garrus earns his bragging rights with a difficult high-risk shot in the clinic and being the only cop at C-Sec who can see through Saren. Jack rips up three YMIRs in three seconds. Most of the NPCs in this game, if they're sold to us as total badasses, at least appear a few times to be total badasses. Vega... I guess they were so enthralled with his breast-drooling dialog that they forgot to add him actually being good at his job.

(That actually is one thing I appreciate a lot about Steve and Sam; the game gets across fairly well that they're extremely strong in their fields in a show-don't-tell sort of way, so they don't feel out of place on the Leet Shepard Team of Leetness, but also don't stand out as totally obnoxious "you should be so impressed with these guys look how great they are" the way Vega or some of the ME2 guys got, and occasionally totally failed to back up.)

[bleetman]

Abispa wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Or hell, how about just ordering him to stop staring at her breasts. He's not that beneficial to the war effort.

Unless you totally wiped out the suicide squad in ME2. You NEED Vega. Your decisions have consequences...

Only until such time as I get Javik.

[Bellendaine]

Quething wrote...

Yeah, that's the other thing I don't get about Vega. Shep has known him for like five minutes, has seen him fight for three, and is suddenly like "you're a hell of a soldier and this war needs you." Later in the game they're like "they want him in N7!" which, you know, is not even how that works even a little but whatever. He's sold to us as this amazing, supercompetent warrior who's so incredibly good at his job!

Vega's actually been guarding Shep for most of the six months since Shep turned himself and the Normandy in, based on the lore.  Anderson hand picks him.  So they haven't *just* met and have known each other awhile.  Vega even mentions that when he comes to Shep's defense re: Cereberus with the VS on Mars. 

Now your comment about the fighting/N7, etc., I can't quibble with.

Modifié par Bellendaine, 05 juin 2012 - 11:38 .

[bleetman]

They can't have known each other that long if Vega's only just now applying nicknames and Shepard had no idea what his service history was.

Standing guard duty whilst Shepard sits around under house arrest lamenting what complete jackasses the Alliance are as they waste time the galaxy doesn't have cheerfully sewing Alliance banners and thinking about how great they are because apparently that's the only opinion she's allowed these days doesn't really allow for a lot of demonstrations of what an amazing soldier he is, either.

[Bellendaine]

bleetman wrote...

They can't have known each other that long if Vega's only just now applying nicknames and Shepard had no idea what his service history was.

Standing guard duty whilst Shepard sits around under house arrest lamenting what complete jackasses the Alliance are as they waste time the galaxy doesn't have cheerfully sewing Alliance banners and thinking about how great they are because apparently that's the only opinion she's allowed these days doesn't really allow for a lot of demonstrations of what an amazing soldier he is, either.

I didn't argue with the second part, as stated in my posting above.  And I'm not saying they know each other well or not, but according to the Mass Effect:  Conviction comic written by Walters, Anderson picked Vega to guard Shepard during his imprisonment, and Shepard says he's been gone from the Normandy for "six months" when he talks to Chakwas, so it's unlikely that they met "five minutes" ago. 

That's all I'm saying ... nothing more.

Modifié par Bellendaine, 06 juin 2012 - 12:32 .

[bleetman]

Ah. This felt like one of those "you'll not really know what's going on unless you've read some annoying tie in comic" situations. Again. Marvelous. I never tire of those.

[Abispa]

bleetman wrote...

Abispa wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Or hell, how about just ordering him to stop staring at her breasts. He's not that beneficial to the war effort.

Unless you totally wiped out the suicide squad in ME2. You NEED Vega. Your decisions have consequences...

Only until such time as I get Javik.

But you need him to get Garrus or Javik.

Now if you want to argue just WHY the hell Shepard bothers sending Liara back to the Normandy (meaning you HAVE to take Vega and Garrus) when EDI goes bonkers, I surrender.

[Abispa]

bleetman wrote...

Ah. This felt like one of those "you'll not really know what's going on unless you've read some annoying tie in comic" situations. Again. Marvelous. I never tire of those.

It's like listening to Star Wars fans defend Bobba Fett's rep as a total badass when the movies made him a joke. "Dude! If you'd just go out and read the novel/comic..!"

Perhaps Bioware should do some SW related games... oh, wait.

BTW, did Bioware ever release the "gay patch" for Star Wars?

[Quething]

Not yet.

The most annoying thing about Menae is that the plot flags are tied to Vega dialog. So even if you use Gibbed you can't hack him out of the mission and keep Liara and Garrus on hand; it makes it impossible to get back into the compound after fighting the marauders for the first time.

[PhoenixAeon]

Ok not to change the conversation.. but had to share..

I personally had issue with MaleShep and Steve Cortez LI/story line/hooking up the way they did. I was like, the guy just was at the memorial letting go of Robert and here you go hooking up with him .. like that? at a bar? really?

I think the story LI with Kaiden and Shepard was way better than with Steve and Shepard mainly because there was a depth to it. You started off kinda deep with Steve and then it felt like fluff after the bar scene. How does someone go from grieving the loss of their husband to playing it lose and wild the next. I am not sure the amount of time that was suppose to pass between the two but it just seemed contradictory to the initial involvement. Also the romance scene with Steve just didn't feel right to me.

I think making James Vega a LI for both MaleShep and FemaleShep would of been more appropriate for the Bar Scene and all that. But James Vega seems too immature for Shepard. But hey there was no other real value to James Vega IMHO. He was not interesting. He reminded me a lot of Jacob, they both didn't have a compelling story. In fact, I felt like they did not belong there. They didn't really earn to be there. Like the others seemed they belonged there, they had a story and a compelling reason that fit perfectly. They seemed more like filler, or an afterthought.

I wish I could of dropped off James Vega at the Citadel and tell him to get a ride back on an alliance ship. Sorry to say, but I just didn't want anything to do with him. As good looking as he was, he just wasn't interesting. you can only go so far with your looks. Perhaps if they crafted a more interesting story around him, I would feel differently.

[AndreasShepard]

PhoenixAeon wrote...

Ok not to change the conversation.. but had to share..

I personally had issue with MaleShep and Steve Cortez LI/story line/hooking up the way they did. I was like, the guy just was at the memorial letting go of Robert and here you go hooking up with him .. like that? at a bar? really?

I think the story LI with Kaiden and Shepard was way better than with Steve and Shepard mainly because there was a depth to it. You started off kinda deep with Steve and then it felt like fluff after the bar scene. How does someone go from grieving the loss of their husband to playing it lose and wild the next. I am not sure the amount of time that was suppose to pass between the two but it just seemed contradictory to the initial involvement. Also the romance scene with Steve just didn't feel right to me.

I think making James Vega a LI for both MaleShep and FemaleShep would of been more appropriate for the Bar Scene and all that. But James Vega seems too immature for Shepard. But hey there was no other real value to James Vega IMHO. He was not interesting. He reminded me a lot of Jacob, they both didn't have a compelling story. In fact, I felt like they did not belong there. They didn't really earn to be there. Like the others seemed they belonged there, they had a story and a compelling reason that fit perfectly. They seemed more like filler, or an afterthought.

I wish I could of dropped off James Vega at the Citadel and tell him to get a ride back on an alliance ship. Sorry to say, but I just didn't want anything to do with him. As good looking as he was, he just wasn't interesting. you can only go so far with your looks. Perhaps if they crafted a more interesting story around him, I would feel differently.

I kind of agree that Cortez jumped into the Shepard relationship a little too quickly considering his emotional state. However he seems pretty determined to try and move on and with someone as hot as Sheploo trying to help it's easy to see why he'd be open to some kind of romance to get over Robert, so it didn't bother me or anything.  But having tried both romances I also feel the Kaidan pairing is the one that feels more natural.

[Frozen83]

PhoenixAeon wrote...

Ok not to change the conversation.. but had to share..

I personally had issue with MaleShep and Steve Cortez LI/story line/hooking up the way they did. I was like, the guy just was at the memorial letting go of Robert and here you go hooking up with him .. like that? at a bar? really?

Well, I'm guessing that at least 9 months have passed between Ferris Fields and ME3. And after tht you have the whole Palaven-Tuchanka-Citadel bussiness. That's another couple of months. And remember, they are on a ship, spending a lot of off-screen time together. That bond people, sometime in an unusual way. Besides, everything is falling appart, everyone is looking for some comfort. Shepard did "bully" Steve out of his self-pity, true, but if you don't pair up with him it is implied he'll still have some fun that night with the "creepy guy" (which is okay I guess). Anyway, what I'm trying to say, sometimes your heart flips 180 in just a moment and you find yourself somewhere... Else. Kaidan's romance arc does have more "meat", but Steve's doesn't seem that strange to me. But all this is just my personal view of things. I could also say that after ME1, Horizon, Mars, Shepard can loose all respect and intrest in Kaidan and that this particular pairing seeme odd to me as well... Romances are awkward sometimes . M.

[Tiberis]

PhoenixAeon wrote...

Ok not to change the conversation.. but had to share..

I personally had issue with MaleShep and Steve Cortez LI/story line/hooking up the way they did. I was like, the guy just was at the memorial letting go of Robert and here you go hooking up with him .. like that? at a bar? really?

I think the story LI with Kaiden and Shepard was way better than with Steve and Shepard mainly because there was a depth to it. You started off kinda deep with Steve and then it felt like fluff after the bar scene. How does someone go from grieving the loss of their husband to playing it lose and wild the next. I am not sure the amount of time that was suppose to pass between the two but it just seemed contradictory to the initial involvement. Also the romance scene with Steve just didn't feel right to me.

The way I see it is as such:

Cortez loses Robert during the middle of ME2 (there is dialogue on the Normandy about Ferris Fields being attacked by the collectors) and subsequently I assume he returns to Earth. ME2 takes place over I think several months. Time doesn’t seem to have a huge role in the ME universe or not that I personally can tell (correct me if I’m wrong). After the events of ME2 conclude, he is assigned to the Normandy’s retrofit team. I believe ME3 then begins about half a year later; reapers invade and he gets stuck on the Normandy during its escape (why he doesn’t appear till after the first visit to the Citadel seems to be due to the plot). By this point at least a year, give or take, has passed since Robert’s death. For most people, that is plentiful time to move on.

Throughout the dialogue you get with Steve, you obviously found out how heartbroken he still is. My impression is that he tried putting it behind him initially after Robert’s death by burying himself in work; something he continues to do on the Normandy until Shepard intervenes. The recording he has was a mistake. He says himself that in the rush and panic of the Reaper invasion he erroneously grabs the recording. “The one thing I grab is this?!” He says it with discontentment; so it seems he did move on but his mistake in grabbing the recording brought back the bad memories. Thus the arc you witness in ME3 is helping him to finally put the bad memories down and make him realize he can be happy again.

With the romance you are put into the theme of “in the moment”, which is why Steve’s romance seems to have a more spontaneous overtone and the hints in his ambient dialogue of what Steve and Shepard do off camera. While Kaidan is more about finally connecting, realizing what was in front of you the whole time; something that was born out of the lack of s/s romance in ME1 as well as the urgent theme of ME3. Admittedly, the romance with Kaidan is much more poetic and romantic; though lackluster in its ambience. Steve is on the opposite side of this. He has a warm, spontaneous ambience; the romantic portion is there but relies on personal interpretation. I think both are in need of expanding; all romances need expanding though.

Sorry for the wall of text. I personally liked Steve’s romance quite a bit. Get kind of irritated by the comments on how it “moved too fast” because you can take most romances from ME3, ME2, and even ME1 and also see them as “moving too fast”. It’s up to perception though; so don’t hate me too much. :innocent:

Modifié par Tiberis, 06 juin 2012 - 04:19 .

[mauro2222]

^ You made me smile :happy:

Regarding Kaidan... they changed writers? I got that feeling from
his dialogue. I think he lost some of the romantic/cute and chivalrous
vibe that I got from him in ME1.

Modifié par mauro2222, 06 juin 2012 - 05:17 .

[bleetman]

Abispa wrote...

BTW, did Bioware ever release the "gay patch" for Star Wars?

No. Nor do I expect they ever will, even if they originally intended to.

Not that I think they ever did, but they've got slightly bigger problems right now. Like keeping the game from failing completely.

[ElitePinecone]

It was probably the best they could do while constrained by a) having to introduce the character in the third act and making Cortez's personal story a tragic one. The trilogy-arc with Kaidan has the advantage of longevity and familiarity, while if Cortez hadn't been grieving over his recently-deceased husband the storyline would've obviously played out differently.

We can hope that future series with a consistent protagonist won't get to the point where they need to shoehorn in the s/s stuff in the final chapter; if nothing else it would make the character interactions seem a little less... hurried.