25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Terrorize69]

Quething wrote...

I'm just incredibly sick of the argument that DA2's "all bi" system was unrealistic or bad. Nobody who makes it actually cares about realism. If they did, why aren't they bothered by Tali dating a pro-geth Shepard, or Liara falling for a hardline renedouche? Why doesn't it bother them that Sebastian and Fenris can fall in love with a mage Hawke or that Izzy will go for a boring goody-two shoes she complains about constantly? "Four bi people in the same circle of friends is unrealistic and immersion-breaking!" is just a pretty way of saying "I don't want gay cooties on the character I romance."

DA2 worked just fine. It was an elegant way to save resources, allowing every love interest to be well-developed and allowing men and women, queer and straight players alike to all have access to a plot-important, strong and well-written romance. If someone objects to that, they either have no understanding of the complexities of game design, or they don't think queer people deserve as much choice as straight ones. Either way the argument is simply wrong, and it bugs me that it's such a convenient way for people to claim that they're worried about character fidelity and helping us poor queers get the representation we deserve, when that's basically the complete opposite of what the DA:O or Mass Effect method actually does.

I totally agree The everybody is bi system was perfect And really if it's not someones thing, it doesnt effect their game whats so ever. It would be like complaining that Shepard is male and female lol.

And anyone who moans about realism well... Blood Magic, Elfs, Darkspawn are realistic, but a bunch of people being bi is not? That. Makes. No. Sense. lol

Modifié par Terrorize69, 10 juin 2012 - 09:28 .

[Hvlukas]

Modifié par Hvlukas, 09 juillet 2012 - 06:15 .

[Hvlukas]

Modifié par Hvlukas, 09 juillet 2012 - 06:15 .

[Abispa]

No, I do NOT think it is the right of a VA to change a character's sexuality based on his/her own morality. HOWEVER, an actor is perfectly within his/her right to do so if Bioware gives him/her the option.

The ME series, and ME3 in particular, is a difficult barometer to judge how s/s romances should be handled since [male] s/s romances weren't put in the original game. And the ME games are the first to not have both genders able to start a romance with a bisexual character at the same point of the series.

This is different in Dragon Age. Each game is a new hero and adventure, and the romantic options can more easily be adjusted from game to game. Also, every VA for a LI will know before hand that s/he will probably be playing a hero-sexual character, and if s/he doesn't like it, s/he won't get the job.

[MACharlie1]

Only after the VA were comfortable with the decision?

What. The. ****. Is that for real? They are actors - they don't like something then don't play the character then. They are PAID to play a part. Disgusting. I hope this isn't why Ashley wasn't an option. My opinion of Miss Brooks would drop considerably....to like none.

[Abispa]

MACharlie1 wrote...

Only after the VA were comfortable with the decision?

What. The. ****. Is that for real? They are actors - they don't like something then don't play the character then. They are PAID to play a part. Disgusting. I hope this isn't why Ashley wasn't an option. My opinion of Miss Brooks would drop considerably....to like none.

It is dangerous to assume using second hand information on the internet. Even if it is in the book, it may be an assumption made by the author and MAY not be accurate. Regardless, it's too late to do anything about it now.

[Quething]

MACharlie1 wrote...

Only after the VA were comfortable with the decision?

What. The. ****. Is that for real? They are actors - they don't like something then don't play the character then. They are PAID to play a part. Disgusting. I hope this isn't why Ashley wasn't an option. My opinion of Miss Brooks would drop considerably....to like none.

Given interviews she's given over the years, I find the idea astonishingly unlikely.

Frankly, given that BioWare tends to hire a lot of very professional actors who've been serious about the business for years, I think it'd be pretty hard to find anyone on their studio regular list who had any problem with doing queer VA. If they did ask, they're jackasses, but I doubt it made a difference.

[Hvlukas]

Modifié par Hvlukas, 09 juillet 2012 - 06:15 .

[ElitePinecone]

Hvlukas wrote...
I also find Bioware’s previous comments about “Shepard” being a pre-defined character (that is: straight or lesbian, but not because s/he's written like that, only bevause that's the options they chose you could have) a bit unnerving. Why change their minds? Does anybody have any insights on that?

The comments about Shepard being a pre-defined character came from an interview with Ray Muzyka and Casey Hudson after ME2's release, we obviously don't know the full context but it sounded like they hadn't prepared for that kind of question. Muzyka responded with that line about a pre-defined character, and Hudson veered off into talking about Garrus and Tali (for some reason?) and how it was really a PG-13 action game at heart. Neither of them made any sense, and those kind of interviews where nobody has a PR answer rarely do. 

Point being: I *would not* take off-the-cuff comments like that as statements of Bioware's official views on anything. If there was an ulterior reason for not including s/s stuff in ME/ME2 (which I'm fairly sure there was, even if it was as mundane as they didn't have the time or resources to bother doing it), they wouldn't be saying it to a journalist that candidly, ever. The 'pre-defined character' nonsense sounds like something dreamed up on the spot to avoid an uncomfortable question. 

Is my ability as a gay gamer to actually play a gay character in Mass Effect just a result of the right people being in on the right day at Bioware, or do Bioware actually mean that even guys like me should have a choice, despite normally being drowned out by a larger and more loud majority? Is the good press on Bioware in the gay press justified? And will Bioware have more gay characters/choices in the future, or would they rather avoid it if they could?

I think it's slightly unfair to a) *expect* Bioware to crusade for more diversity in games without reference to the cost, time, effort or investment return for doing so, and question their motives without access to any of the internal debates that we'll never get to see. We don't know why s/s content was absent from ME/ME2 (well, Liara and Kelly aside) and we don't know why it was introduced for ME3, except references by Hudson to responding to fan requests like this thread. 

Certainly, I think, the fact that s/s content is in the game at all is testament to the right people being in the right place at Bioware. Most game companies don't touch this content at all, and when they do it's comic relief or stereotypes. The lack of outrage about s/s in ME3, the comments of the dev team and others at Bioware, specifically DA, make me think it's going to be a pretty constant feature of their games going forward. 

If the standards for being supportive of a company for including lgbt content are so high that they have to do it out of the goodness of their hearts and their crusading zeal to provide more options for players, then you're going to have a list of zero. Costs, audience size and capacity (as in, does it actually fit into the game? Cortez and Traynor were characters specifically created to be s/s romances; older scripts didn't have them) are far more important for a business, and I think it's naive to think otherwise. 

[Hvlukas]

Modifié par Hvlukas, 09 juillet 2012 - 06:16 .

[Fox In The Box]

Quething wrote...


I wasn't insulted, per se, and I apologize for snapping. I'm just incredibly sick of the argument that DA2's "all bi" system was unrealistic or bad. Nobody who makes it actually cares about realism. If they did, why aren't they bothered by Tali dating a pro-geth Shepard, or Liara falling for a hardline renedouche? Why doesn't it bother them that Sebastian and Fenris can fall in love with a mage Hawke or that Izzy will go for a boring goody-two shoes she complains about constantly? "Four bi people in the same circle of friends is unrealistic and immersion-breaking!" is just a pretty way of saying "I don't want gay cooties on the character I romance."

DA2 worked just fine. It was an elegant way to save resources, allowing every love interest to be well-developed and allowing men and women, queer and straight players alike to all have access to a plot-important, strong and well-written romance. If someone objects to that, they either have no understanding of the complexities of game design, or they don't think queer people deserve as much choice as straight ones. Either way the argument is simply wrong, and it bugs me that it's such a convenient way for people to claim that they're worried about character fidelity and helping us poor queers get the representation we deserve, when that's basically the complete opposite of what the DA:O or Mass Effect method actually does.

Oh God, thank you.

The "four bisexuals in the same group of friends is statistically unlikely, therefore unrealistic, therefore bad" argument is actually kind of hilarious (and by which, I mean infuriating) from an in-game perspective when you consider that the same group of friends in both games is made up by the wackiest statistical outliers Thedas has to offer. What are the odds that you'll get the legendary Flemeth's daughter, a bastard prince, the first golem in creation, a friendly spirit-possessed mage, a stray Qunari, an Orlesian bard, et cetera, et cetera, all end up in the same party? Next to none. Still no one raises an eyebrow at that, because colorful characters make the game more interesting, among other things. But if four of those people had, god forbid, been bisexual?

Impossible!

Unrealistic!

Fan service!

That's not even getting into the idea of how a "realistic" bisexual person would approach romantic relationships or that bisexuality is not as defined an orientation as homosexuality or heterosexuality. Like, that Kaidan wasn't realistically bisexual because he didn't mention any past male crushes or made any moves on a male!Shep in ME1 when there are a myriad of reasons why anyone might be more reserved about approaching someone of the same sex.

*Sigh* I'm sorry. I'm just tired and I needed to vent.

[ElitePinecone]

I think some employees at Bioware feel genuinely strongly about lgbt rights (the writers especially) and I don't want to sound totally cynical by saying that they only introduced s/s romances because it made business sense and there was an audience for it, but there *is* clearly a reason why it wasn't in the first two games and it is in ME3. That change had to have a purpose, and (although we have no idea) it could be a combination of having the time, seeing the fan response and an expectation that it wouldn't have caused the same controversy as five years ago.

A games company can't be entirely a vehicle for social change (especially when it needs to sell a product to a mainstream audience), and I think it's always a delicate balance between being risk-averse and trying to include wider perspectives.

[bas_kon]

I think what bioware is doing with their games concerning romances and lately Bethesda, is the right way to go. I mean, everyone gets options and enjoys the game the way they want.

Also, while our numbers might make us a minority playing general features of the game such as the main story or multiplayer, we might not be such a small minority when it comes to playing romance content.

Capcom, though, is another story, I felt insulted when they kept saying for months there was gonna be s/s romances in Dragon's Dogma but the truth was there was only female romances (even little girls) for both genders. I just didn't buy it, though.

Modifié par bas_kon, 11 juin 2012 - 02:14 .

[Hvlukas]

Modifié par Hvlukas, 09 juillet 2012 - 06:16 .

[devSin]

Ah, yes. The time-honored tradition of requiring your actors to verify that they are willing to debase themselves by reading gay lines before you consider even writing them.

I wonder if they asked permission first for female Shepard and Liara and Kelly?

[Ryzaki]

Yeah the "OMG unrealistic!" in DA2 had me roll my eyes. Plenty more things "unrealistic" or "immersion-breaking" in that game that had nothing to do with the LIs.

I'm going to refrain from commenting on the old Steve vs Kaidan romance debate. <_< Let's just say I have more issues with Kaidan's romance than Steve's. Of course this is simply from my Shep's POV.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 juin 2012 - 10:06 .

[Terrorize69]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yeah the "OMG unrealistic!" in DA2 had me roll my eyes. Plenty more things "unrealistic" or "immersion-breaking" in that game that had nothing to do with the LIs.

I'm going to refrain from commenting on the old Steve vs Kaidan romance debate. <_< Let's just say I have more issues with Kaidan's romance than Steve's. Of course this is simply from my Shep's POV.

When ever someone makes a comment saying "OMG such an such is so unrealistic" In a sci-fi or fantasy game (or film/book for that matter) I just want to reach through their monitor and stab them with my unrealistic blunt knife

[MACharlie1]

devSin wrote...

Ah, yes. The time-honored tradition of requiring your actors to verify that they are willing to debase themselves by reading gay lines before you consider even writing them.

I wonder if they asked permission first for female Shepard and Liara and Kelly?

I don't think Hale or Hillis had any objections...

As much as I get annoyed at Liara and disliked the VO in ME1, Ali Hillis seems like a nice lady. 

[devSin]

I don't think any of them had any objections.

I'm simply wondering if this "only if the actors are comfortable with it" was something that also came up for the gay romances in ME and ME2, or if this was something unique to ME3 to make sure the male actors wouldn't feel too emasculated and disgusted to read a couple gay lines.

Suddenly everybody has to be onboard with the idea, before you could even consider doing something so controversial and gross.

[Abispa]

devSin wrote...

I don't think any of them had any objections.

I'm simply wondering if this "only if the actors are comfortable with it" was something that also came up for the gay romances in ME and ME2, or if this was something unique to ME3 to make sure the male actors wouldn't feel too emasculated and disgusted to read a couple gay lines.

Suddenly everybody has to be onboard with the idea, before you could even consider doing something so controversial and gross.

It's my understanding that Joker's VA was allowed to ad lib to help define the character as he saw it. If true, that may be why I now hate Joker so much. Also, if true, it is possible that asking the actors if they were okay with s/s may have merely to see if the actor's envision their character this way (after two games). If s/s was the only time that question was asked, I would be upset. If other controversial aspects where discussed (Tali committing suicide, for example), I'd have less of a problem with it.

[Abispa]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yeah the "OMG unrealistic!" in DA2 had me roll my eyes. Plenty more things "unrealistic" or "immersion-breaking" in that game that had nothing to do with the LIs.

I'm going to refrain from commenting on the old Steve vs Kaidan romance debate. <_< Let's just say I have more issues with Kaidan's romance than Steve's. Of course this is simply from my Shep's POV.

You've always hated Kaidan any way.

Me? I DEMAND more realism in my game. Imagine the 50+ hour physical therapy Mass Effect mini game for the Kinect after ever mission. Almost makes me tinkle with excitement.

[Ryzaki]

Hey not my fault he and Ashley are lame.

LOL that intrigues and frightens me at the same time.

[Bellendaine]

MACharlie1 wrote...

Only after the VA were comfortable with the decision?

What. The. ****. Is that for real? They are actors - they don't like something then don't play the character then. They are PAID to play a part. Disgusting. I hope this isn't why Ashley wasn't an option. My opinion of Miss Brooks would drop considerably....to like none.

Well, I'm not a famous actor by any stretch, but I'm a theater professor in a big city and do a lot of V/O work.  Now it's mostly industrial and commercial stuff, not gaming, so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt:  but I've never been asked if I'm "comfortable" with the text I'm being paid to read.  My agent sends me the text beforehand, usually before auditions, and if it's something I'm not comfortable being associated with (like doing an ad for Walmart, for example, in my case), I don't do the audition.  They easily find someone else (there are lots of us out there), so I find that aspect of this ... unreliable.

[devSin]

Abispa wrote...

It's my understanding that Joker's VA was allowed to ad lib to help define the character as he saw it. If true, that may be why I now hate Joker so much. Also, if true, it is possible that asking the actors if they were okay with s/s may have merely to see if the actor's envision their character this way (after two games). If s/s was the only time that question was asked, I would be upset. If other controversial aspects where discussed (Tali committing suicide, for example), I'd have less of a problem with it.

Having some say in how you act the lines is fine. That's acting. Nobody cares. But this is the only time I know that question was asked, and I am upset. I wish it didn't bother me, but it does.

Did Garrus' actor have to confirm his willingness to play an alien and hook up with another alien? Did Joker's actor have to consent to having a relationship with a robot? Did Liara's actress have to confirm that it was OK that her character would be totally useless (not to mention uttering the line "capable of unquantifiable levels of destruction", which I can't imagine anybody in their right mind ever willingly agreeing to)? Did Jacob's actor have to be on board before they would have him impregnate some random woman and give the finger to female Shepard? Did they ask Ashley's actress if it was OK that she would be religious and judgmental? Did James' actor have to consent to him being close friends with a gay guy?

Maybe it's like you say, and the actors have been a part of the authoring process from the start. Given that this is the only time we've ever heard of it, however, I'm not convinced that this is at all the case.

Modifié par devSin, 12 juin 2012 - 12:49 .

[Ryzaki]

@Abispa: It would explain that actually. I adored Joker in ME1 and ME2. ME3? Just because a creepy douche. His few moments of old Jokerness was ruined by that damn sexbot.