25715 réponses à ce sujet

[ToriJay]

Oh and to head off the ninjamancing perhaps needing to flag a few flirtatious conversations for it to be considered a 'romance'.

[Jademoon121]

ToriJay wrote...

ElitePinecone you got in while I was typing!! I like the way DA2 made it clear if a conversation option lead to a romantic path. Perhaps something for BioWare to consider applying to ME3 so we know if we're just being friendly or 'friendly'. As for the other stuff, everyone has a right to an opinion, if they don't wish to play a particular way they really don't have to, that is something they should keep in mind.

Although I didn't like how every character was bi in DA2, the dialogue screen didn't leave a lot to the imagination and risk. ME3 should use the romance version of it, if anything else from DA2. No matter if you're for or against S/S LI, no one likes ninjamances.

[Abispa]

About the all-bisexual menu options in RPGs, I have mixed feelings about that. While, in theory, I'd LOVE for there to be well written characters of various persuasions that are established, the degree of modding in RPGs shows that if there's a well written character who is straight, there are fans who wish s/he was gay. I can also see this going the other way if a gay character happens to be the popular (good-looking, hot, etc.) one.

RPGs are basically a (hopefully) entertaining exercise on customizing your character, and that's what fictional video game lovers are, accessories. Listen to them for hours, ignore them, love them, or kill them, the fun in the game is that it's up to you. Just as it may be "realistic" to restrict the player's choices in armor, weapons, sexuality, and power upgrades, as is the case IRL, most people don't want to reality, they want entertaining fantasy.

And let's face it, until the DA2 bi-bomb was dropped, I was beginning to think that the only alternative lifestyle characters Bioware was going to introduce were hot bisexual women and the male rogue (Jade Empire and DA, looking at you). Lots of gay guys wanted Alistair and Kaidan apparently, so I can just imagine what kind of fan outrage there would have been if Liara or Liliana were gay only, though I'm sure there would have still been a lot of guys who'd get their kicks.

[Jademoon121]

Abispa wrote...

About the all-bisexual menu options in RPGs, I have mixed feelings about that. While, in theory, I'd LOVE for there to be well written characters of various persuasions that are established, the degree of modding in RPGs shows that if there's a well written character who is straight, there are fans who wish s/he was gay. I can also see this going the other way if a gay character happens to be the popular (good-looking, hot, etc.) one.

RPGs are basically a (hopefully) entertaining exercise on customizing your character, and that's what fictional video game lovers are, accessories. Listen to them for hours, ignore them, love them, or kill them, the fun in the game is that it's up to you. Just as it may be "realistic" to restrict the player's choices in armor, weapons, sexuality, and power upgrades, as is the case IRL, most people don't want to reality, they want entertaining fantasy.

And let's face it, until the DA2 bi-bomb was dropped, I was beginning to think that the only alternative lifestyle characters Bioware was going to introduce were hot bisexual women and the male rogue (Jade Empire and DA, looking at you). Lots of gay guys wanted Alistair and Kaidan apparently, so I can just imagine what kind of fan outrage there would have been if Liara or Liliana were gay only, though I'm sure there would have still been a lot of guys who'd get their kicks.

If it can be implemented correctly, it could work, although I hated Fenris and Anders in DA2. The key thing I think in doing this right, it making them all available, not bisexual. Look at Anders for example; if you're ManHawke, he's gay, if you're FemHawke, he's straight. Merrill, we assume is only into men, but over time she falls for FemHawke out of adoration for her. In short, if we're going to see this ME3. we need more "Shepherd-sexuals", not bisexuals.

Edit for grammer.

Modifié par Jademoon121, 02 juillet 2011 - 03:31 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Jademoon121 wrote...

If it can be implemented correctly, it could work, although I hated Fenris and Anders in DA2. The key thing I think in doing this right, it making them all available, not bisexual. Look at Anders for example; if you're ManHawke, he's gay, if you're FemHawke, he's straight. Merrill, we assume is only into men, but over time she falls for FemHawke out of adoration for her. In short, if we're going to see this ME3. we need more "Shepherd-sexuals", not bisexuals.

Edit for grammer.

Actually, this isn't true.   Anders is bisexual either way, he just never tells femhawke about his encounters with men.  I forgot what thread it was, but Gaider talked about it.

[Jademoon121]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Jademoon121 wrote...

If it can be implemented correctly, it could work, although I hated Fenris and Anders in DA2. The key thing I think in doing this right, it making them all available, not bisexual. Look at Anders for example; if you're ManHawke, he's gay, if you're FemHawke, he's straight. Merrill, we assume is only into men, but over time she falls for FemHawke out of adoration for her. In short, if we're going to see this ME3. we need more "Shepherd-sexuals", not bisexuals.

Edit for grammer.

Actually, this isn't true.   Anders is bisexual either way, he just never tells femhawke about his encounters with men.  I forgot what thread it was, but Gaider talked about it.

oh...uh. Well, that can be a good way to implement this system in later games.

[dantares83]

so far, there is only one gay character and even that wasn't explicitly state...

and there is Hendel... the only lesbian character would be Kelly who can sleep with a femShep

the Asari don't count and any character (male/female) who slept with them don't count...

[demonic_cookie]

ElitePinecone, I usually group the "characters would be retconned" and especially the "but character X clearly CAN'T be bi! S/he didn't ACT bi!" with the homophobes, because that's what it is. It's not just "kill Zevran to never have his bisexual cooties touch me", it's also denying that sexual identity changes through life, or that being bisexual doesn't make a character any less strong/realistic/etc. Maybe the second camp will "allow" us to have a new character so we don't "sully" their favorites, it doesn't make them not homophobic.

I would like to see some characters flirt first, but it should come from their characterization. Zevran and Isabela are obvious choices, and Liara&Ashley are both young in ME1 and get away with flirting first. Tali shows signs of a crush too, even though I can't really call it flirting, and that's in character. On the other hand, Kaidan, Jacob and Miranda are all too professional to really start something, Garrus is clueless and Thane thinks about other things. I can personally see Virmire Survivor starting something in ME3 simply by saying "I was such a turd on Horizon, forgive me. Wanna make out?" ^___________^

we need more "Shepherd-sexuals", not bisexuals.

I don't really think it's that much of a problem, though. Real-life sexuality is not just a box you tick. I am as lesbian as they come but I had a guy in my life who I was debating "going bi for". Never happened, but it could have. There is a spectrum, not just "only menz" only "womenz" and "anyone ever".

[Jademoon121]

dantares83 wrote...

so far, there is only one gay character and even that wasn't explicitly state...

and there is Hendel... the only lesbian character would be Kelly who can sleep with a femShep

the Asari don't count and any character (male/female) who slept with them don't count...

Uuhh, Kelly is bi, manShep can go after her too; and the Asari do count. They're women(at least look like women) and a human would only be interested in one if they're into women.

[Jademoon121]

demonic_cookie wrote...

we need more "Shepherd-sexuals", not bisexuals.

I don't really think it's that much of a problem, though. Real-life sexuality is not just a box you tick. I am as lesbian as they come but I had a guy in my life who I was debating "going bi for". Never happened, but it could have. There is a spectrum, not just "only menz" only "womenz" and "anyone ever".

lol, I don't believe in orientation myself, I just belief in preferances; hence hearing people saying "I'd go bi for X" because they prefer them, and that's why I'm for more Shepherd-sexuals; people who want to date their commander for reasons beyond basic biology. Heck, Garrus dates femShep simply because he respects her, not because she's a woman. Still makes me wonder though why that wasn't extended to men though....

[dantares83]

Jademoon121 wrote...

dantares83 wrote...

so far, there is only one gay character and even that wasn't explicitly state...

and there is Hendel... the only lesbian character would be Kelly who can sleep with a femShep

the Asari don't count and any character (male/female) who slept with them don't count...

Uuhh, Kelly is bi, manShep can go after her too; and the Asari do count. They're women(at least look like women) and a human would only be interested in one if they're into women.

oh yah... so I guess there are no lesbian characters yet... n no bisexual male characters too..

I don't think Asari can be defined sexually. They are attracted to both male/female species and likewise, both male/female species are attracted to them (regardless whether they are actually lesbian/bi) simply because they are sexuality themselves... anyway, their version of initmate moment aka "embracing eternality" can't be considered anything in human terms... it just hugging and getting shocks...  

[ElitePinecone]

demonic_cookie wrote...
 it's also denying that sexual identity changes through life, or that being bisexual doesn't make a character any less strong/realistic/etc. Maybe the second camp will "allow" us to have a new character so we don't "sully" their favorites, it doesn't make them not homophobic.

This is true, there's probably a strong undercurrent of personal discomfort in many of these arguments. But I don't think it's entirely helpful to brand all opponents of S/S as blatant homophobes. There are some arguments that can be made against certain aspects while still supporting it in principle. 

In regards to the whole 'Shepardsexual' issue, it's interesting to note that Kaidan's cut romance in Mass Effect actually exhibited some of this. 

In the femShep romance, and the un-modded maleShep romance, he mentions Rahna by name and that he had a special relationship with her (suggested to be romantic). In the modded mShep/Kaidan romance, he never mentions her as anything more than a random female classmate who he saved from Vernus out of kindness, rather than love. It's a small change but it would've had significant implications for the character, if it had stayed in the game. 

Also, speaking of some of the traditional 'alternative romances' Bioware has offered (someone mentioned Sky and Zevran) - one of the more welcome aspects of Kaidan as a character, and something I think the company has come a long way on, is that bisexual characters are no longe troubled souls with a tarnished past, or otherwise debauched libertines with no morals or scruples. It's refreshing that if Kaidan really is an s/s option in ME3, it'll be as a relatively grounded and stable character, rather than an emotional basket case or sexually liberated bisexual assassain/pirate/thief. 

[ElitePinecone]

dantares83 wrote...

I don't think Asari can be defined sexually. They are attracted to both male/female species and likewise, both male/female species are attracted to them (regardless whether they are actually lesbian/bi) simply because they are sexuality themselves... anyway, their version of initmate moment aka "embracing eternality" can't be considered anything in human terms... it just hugging and getting shocks...  

I'd have to disagree with the first part of this, at least. While it's totally true that asari are alien, and that they might percieve human gender differently, I'd find it impossible to argue that any human male would not see them as female, and that any human female would not also see them as female. 

MaleShep, as a human, would be attracted to Liara sexually because he's into (at least) women. FemShep, as a human, would be the same. The player, if they were following their own preferences, would percieve the asari as a woman and act accordingly. 

The "actual gender" of the asari is far less important than our perception of that gender - and in Mass Effect's case it's overwhelmingly been presented as female, with female pronouns, names, mannerisms, titles, voice acting and appearance.  

So while an asari might not regard a relationship with a human woman as a lesbian relationship, because the term wouldn't exist in their language, I don't think it could be argued (despite attempts by Bioware) that femShep and Liara isn't a lesbian relationship, from our perspective and from the in-universe perspective of the human characters.

Kaidan even says as much when he points out to femShep, when she romances Liara, that he didn't realise she was into women. 

[Abispa]

dantares83 wrote...

I don't think Asari can be defined sexually. They are attracted to both male/female species and likewise, both male/female species are attracted to them (regardless whether they are actually lesbian/bi) simply because they are sexuality themselves... anyway, their version of initmate moment aka "embracing eternality" can't be considered anything in human terms... it just hugging and getting shocks...  

Hmm, I don't know. Just because Asari CAN mate with either gender doesn't mean that an individual Asari can't have her preferences. There have been a few Asari who prefer their own species despite the fact that cultural norm is to find a lover from off world, and they even have their own anti-pureblood cultural stigma.

Plus, in the ME universe, males and females of the bipedal species do seem to have a similar male or female "vibe" that we 21st century humans do, ie. crass males and flirty females. I'm sure given the prevelence of "male" and "female" attitudes, an Asari could prefer males or females exclusively.

Even Aria made gender specific lover recommendations to Shepard, possibly giving away her own perspective.

[ElitePinecone]

elektrego wrote...

snip

It's a tremendously difficult problem for Bioware's writers, and I don't envy the task they've set themselves by announcing S/S romances - if it's true, as has been suggested, that former LIs will be open for ME3. 

It could be solved so easily by making purely new characters bisexual, but a lot of people who wanted a trilogy-spanning romance and who would be disappointed with a 'one-game' cop-out would be upset. 

But there are probably people in one form or another who want a S/S romance with *all* of the range of ME/ME2 LIs, and catering to this demand while also trying to mollify those with an objection to the content is a near-impossible task. 

In the end it has to fall somewhere between 'no characters at all' and 'everyone's bi!!!' with some new characters, or else have solely new characters available. Whichever option Bioware thinks is feasible, affordable, managable and marketable will probably be the one chosen, but it must be extremely difficult to decide. 

[dantares83]

anyway, I do not agree with turning the existing characters to all bi just because some fans complained that they can't romanced their favorite character (e.g. Kaiden and Tali).. it is silly and have proven failure with DA2...

no doubt they can 'hide' their sexuality from ME1 to 2... but it is ridiculous that everyone is shepard-sexual and/or bi... not everyone are like Asari. I don't see the obession with making Kaiden bi/gay just because he is too hot and some guys should have a chance with him 2... 

but I would definitely welcomed a (or even a few) new gay/bi character(s)... it would make sense because they are gay players out there who refused to romance any of the female characters till now just because it is not who they are...  who is to say that you can't fall in love with someone (FINALLY) while saving Earth...

n don't complain about choices because there aren't many (for the straight) to choose from too... 

Modifié par dantares83, 02 juillet 2011 - 04:30 .

[dantares83]

deleted

Modifié par dantares83, 02 juillet 2011 - 04:30 .

[HopHazzard]

I really don't see how the fact that all the LI's were available for both genders had anything to do with the weak romances in DA2. It was the restrictive conversation system.

[Rinji the Bearded]

dantares83 wrote...

anyway, I do not agree with turning the existing characters to all bi just because some fans complained that they can't romanced their favorite character (e.g. Kaiden and Tali).. it is silly and have proven failure with DA2...

no doubt they can 'hide' their sexuality from ME1 to 2... but it is ridiculous that everyone is shepard-sexual and/or bi... not everyone are like Asari. I don't see the obession with making Kaiden bi/gay just because he is too hot and some guys should have a chance with him 2... 

but I would definitely welcomed a (or even a few) new gay/bi character(s)... it would make sense because they are gay players out there who refused to romance any of the female characters till now just because it is not who they are...  who is to say that you can't fall in love with someone (FINALLY) while saving Earth...

n don't complain about choices because there aren't many (for the straight) to choose from too... 

I don't know how all the LIs being bi was a problem in DA2.  It was how the romances were structured.  And how is it a proven failure?  Where is this so-called proof?

[lazuli]

dantares83 wrote...
n don't complain about choices because there aren't many (for the straight) to choose from too... 

Consult ElitePinecone's signature:

M/F: 9
F/F: 1
M/M: 0

[demonic_cookie]

But I don't think it's entirely helpful to brand all opponents of S/S as blatant homophobes. There are some arguments that can be made against certain aspects while still supporting it in principle.

They're not 'blatant' homophobes. It's possible to be homophobic, have homophobic attitudes, and not be a raging fundamentalist, like it is possible to have racist attitudes and not join the Klan. It is possible not to even be aware of your own homophobic attitudes and sincerely think that you 'have no problems with gays'. I can agree with, for example, not wanting all characters to be bi without any explanation (an immersion thing), and I can sympathize with worrying about bisexual characters being written as stereotypes, but there are very few objections a person can voice to same sex romance and not betray their own homophobic bias in the process.

Also, asari are female ffs. The codex says they're female. Everything in the game says they're female. Quit it with the 'Shepard is not a lesbian/bisexual for sleeping with Liara' bull.

[dantares83]

RinjiRenee wrote...

dantares83 wrote...

anyway, I do not agree with turning the existing characters to all bi just because some fans complained that they can't romanced their favorite character (e.g. Kaiden and Tali).. it is silly and have proven failure with DA2...

no doubt they can 'hide' their sexuality from ME1 to 2... but it is ridiculous that everyone is shepard-sexual and/or bi... not everyone are like Asari. I don't see the obession with making Kaiden bi/gay just because he is too hot and some guys should have a chance with him 2... 

but I would definitely welcomed a (or even a few) new gay/bi character(s)... it would make sense because they are gay players out there who refused to romance any of the female characters till now just because it is not who they are...  who is to say that you can't fall in love with someone (FINALLY) while saving Earth...

n don't complain about choices because there aren't many (for the straight) to choose from too... 

I don't know how all the LIs being bi was a problem in DA2.  It was how the romances were structured.  And how is it a proven failure?  Where is this so-called proof?

coz in the real universe, it is unlikely that every of your teammates/friends is falling in love with you...