25715 réponses à ce sujet

[AngelicMachinery]

dantares83 wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

dantares83 wrote...

anyway, I do not agree with turning the existing characters to all bi just because some fans complained that they can't romanced their favorite character (e.g. Kaiden and Tali).. it is silly and have proven failure with DA2...

no doubt they can 'hide' their sexuality from ME1 to 2... but it is ridiculous that everyone is shepard-sexual and/or bi... not everyone are like Asari. I don't see the obession with making Kaiden bi/gay just because he is too hot and some guys should have a chance with him 2... 

but I would definitely welcomed a (or even a few) new gay/bi character(s)... it would make sense because they are gay players out there who refused to romance any of the female characters till now just because it is not who they are...  who is to say that you can't fall in love with someone (FINALLY) while saving Earth...

n don't complain about choices because there aren't many (for the straight) to choose from too... 

I don't know how all the LIs being bi was a problem in DA2.  It was how the romances were structured.  And how is it a proven failure?  Where is this so-called proof?

coz in the real universe, it is unlikely that every of your teammates/friends is falling in love with you...

Eh,  I find it just as "LOLWUT?" when every member of the opposite sex on the ship falls for Shepard. While the probability isn't as high when compared to every member of the crew falling for you...  it just shatters my IMMERZIONZ.  Than I think to myself "Self,  everyone wants Shepard because she's the PC.  Get the hell over it and go kick harbinger's exhaust pipe."

[Siansonea]

Can we not throw the word "homophobe" around? I mean it sounds like by some people's definition around here that I am a homophobe because I think that Ashley and Jack are less favorable candidates for f/f than Miranda and Tali. People can have legitimate concerns about character continuity. It's not always a knee-jerk response to homophobia. Now, of course some people will latch onto character continuity as a pretext, a smokescreen to "defend" their cherished character's exclusively heterosexuality. It's important not to assume that is ALWAYS what is happening when someone expresses a negative opinion about a specific character as a bisexual LI.

For instance, I've always felt that Ashley was such a forthcoming, direct, assertive person, that if she harbored any s/s interest in ME1, she would have said something, much in the same way she's pretty direct in her flirtation with ManShep. If she does become a s/s option in ME3, I hope the scenario is written in such a way that either explains her lack of interest in ME1, or her lack of expressing interest if some interest was present. Maybe she's predominantly o/s in her bisexuality, and maybe she had a crush on Kaidan, and maybe it's only because Kaidan died that she was able to see Shepard as a potential romance prospect. Who knows.

The point is, don't automatically assume that everyone is coming from a bad place emotionally when discussing the subject, give people the benefit of the doubt, and treat everyone with respect, even if you don't agree. And don't just label people homophobes, because all that does is kill the conversation.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 02 juillet 2011 - 05:33 .

[dantares83]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

dantares83 wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

dantares83 wrote...

anyway, I do not agree with turning the existing characters to all bi just because some fans complained that they can't romanced their favorite character (e.g. Kaiden and Tali).. it is silly and have proven failure with DA2...

no doubt they can 'hide' their sexuality from ME1 to 2... but it is ridiculous that everyone is shepard-sexual and/or bi... not everyone are like Asari. I don't see the obession with making Kaiden bi/gay just because he is too hot and some guys should have a chance with him 2... 

but I would definitely welcomed a (or even a few) new gay/bi character(s)... it would make sense because they are gay players out there who refused to romance any of the female characters till now just because it is not who they are...  who is to say that you can't fall in love with someone (FINALLY) while saving Earth...

n don't complain about choices because there aren't many (for the straight) to choose from too... 

I don't know how all the LIs being bi was a problem in DA2.  It was how the romances were structured.  And how is it a proven failure?  Where is this so-called proof?

coz in the real universe, it is unlikely that every of your teammates/friends is falling in love with you...

Eh,  I find it just as "LOLWUT?" when every member of the opposite sex on the ship falls for Shepard. While the probability isn't as high when compared to every member of the crew falling for you...  it just shatters my IMMERZIONZ.  Than I think to myself "Self,  everyone wants Shepard because she's the PC.  Get the hell over it and go kick harbinger's exhaust pipe."

ok... it's weird that all the female/male characters start falling in love with you but hey, u just did them a strong favour and feelings tend to go haywire during those times... 
but it is still more believable that people like Garrus and Kaiden falling in love with a maleShep and Ashley falling in love with femShep

[demonic_cookie]

Siansonea II, if you read more closely you can see that I used the phrase 'mostly homophobes', and admitted to there being possible concerns that do not stem from that. I do not have the problem with your reasoning, and as much as I would love to see Jack turn bisexual I also have doubts because she had already said that she wasn't. You cannot dispute though, that most people who roll out the "OMG CHARACTERIZATION" cart are doing it because they think that characters "didn't act bisexual" in the series. And that is a homophobic reason.

I for one think that the word 'homophobic' should be used when it is appropriate, and not have people go into a rage and claim that I'm omg blaming them or branding them or throwing it around. Because people should be able to call homophobia by its name. People might not 'consider' themselves homophobes, but that doesn't mean they aren't, and shouldn't be called on it, and shouldn't learn to deal with the fact that yes, the attitudes that their society instilled in them are problematic. Tali is "too innocent" to be bisexual? Garrus is 'too manly' to be bisexual? Male!Shepard "would never be gay"? Sorry, those are all homophobic statements, no matter from what place they come emotionally, and I reserve the right not to give people who voice those opinions the benefit of the doubt.

Modifié par demonic_cookie, 02 juillet 2011 - 05:56 .

[bleetman]

dantares83 wrote...

coz in the real universe, it is unlikely that every of your teammates/friends is falling in love with you...

Two things: one, that's not possible to achieve in a single Dragon Age 2 playthrough without a level of pre-emptive planning bordering on machiavelian. Two, there are nine companions in total. Eight if you count Hawke's siblings as one character. Of these, four are romance options, plus one painfully under-developed one who is mutually exclusive with the others.

Male Shepard, on the other hand, can sleep with virtually every female crew member aboard the Normandy across both games. Plus the handful of acquaintances who start flirting with him.

Modifié par bleetman, 02 juillet 2011 - 06:00 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

dantares83 wrote...

ok... it's weird that all the female/male characters start falling in love with you but hey, u just did them a strong favour and feelings tend to go haywire during those times... 
but it is still more believable that people like Garrus and Kaiden falling in love with a maleShep and Ashley falling in love with femShep

Not all of them do.  Name one game where everyone in the protagonist's party falls in love with the protagonist.  

[Abispa]

The reason "homophobe" is thrown around is that homosexuality brings out the loudest complaints from fans about a sci-fi video game being unrealistic.

I have a problem with the way sex with Tali was handled. She basically comes off as a woman who has no self esteem and wants to be used since she falls for Shepard even if he treats her like garbage. And the whole magic Mordin sex gel that makes it "safer" for her and Shepard to get some action stretches credulity to the breaking point.

I have seen some fans bring up these complaints, but most are trolls who just want to upset the Talimancers and are called out as such. A great many threads they start are shut down. The others who complain on the basis of realism and logic do not say the game is ruined and that they'll never buy a Bioware game again. The seem to accept the "unrealism" is the result of video game limitations and the reality of catering to a fan base that think sex with aliens is hot.

Put such over-reactions to s/s romance in ME3 (even from the "moderates" who say they're okay with s/s ONLY with new characters) against the backdrop of current advances in LGBT acceptance versus a passionate backlash from "traditional" groups. If you see the 24 hour coverage on FOX and MSNBC and then read these threads, it's not surprising if "homophobia" is the first word to jump into your mind.

A game that is predominately about saving the universe with machine guns and explosives is NEVER going to be able to devote enough resources for "realistic" romances. That's why I don't object to the "all-bi" option, and why I don't understand fans being upset about the gay options in ME3 because they *gasp* are a fan service.

[bleetman]

There's also the nagging issue that character romances tend to be, in the grand scheme of things, minor details. They're nowhere near as central to what goes on as they could be (or, for that matter, more so than anything else about the game), and yet we get nonsense accusations of "dating simulator" and "focus on romance is ruining the game". I'd be willing to bet my Shepard spent more time punching people. Run 'n' gun gameplay takes up dozens of hours. Romance content is, what, five minutes?

That the inclusion of a presumable handful of s/s romances is causing such levels of concern - more so than anything else I've seen - just infuriates me no end.

Modifié par bleetman, 02 juillet 2011 - 06:59 .

[jlb524]

I agree with Abispa and bleetman...it's all about double standards.

The 'dating simulator' thing really gets to me...considering all the 'romantic' encounters in a game like The Witcher, I wonder why the same critique isn't levied against that game?

[demonic_cookie]

The reason "homophobe" is thrown around is that homosexuality brings out the loudest complaints from fans about a sci-fi video game being unrealistic.

The reason the word "homophobe" is used so much (although I am actually yet to see it "throwing around" everyone keeps talking about) is because a lot of people on this board are homophobic.

[Abispa]

demonic_cookie wrote...

The reason "homophobe" is thrown around is that homosexuality brings out the loudest complaints from fans about a sci-fi video game being unrealistic.

The reason the word "homophobe" is used so much (although I am actually yet to see it "throwing around" everyone keeps talking about) is because a lot of people on this board are homophobic.

Actually, the word "homophobe" really isn't thrown around a lot. Usually the word is brought up by those complaining about s/s romances in the form of "I'm not a homophobe, but...", or "I don't care if you all think I'm a homophobe, but I think..." I'm pretty sure those who disagree with s/s Shepard options feel that being branded a homophobe, real or imagined, gives them some kind of moral victim status.

My own view on this is similar to how I treat overweight people. I don't treat an over-weight person as "fat" until I know for certain that the weight isn't caused by a medical condition. Once I see him or her scarf down a ton of junk food and spend and entire afternoon snacking and refusing to exercise, THAT'S when I'll start suggesting that s/he's had enough, suggest healthier snacks, or that we do some activity that doesn't involve sitting around for hours.

When a person posting complains about s/s ruining his/her immersion into a game, I start reading the post to see how they comment on other aspects of the game, especially previous romances. I don't think I've ever openly accused a commentor on being homophobic, but I have decided that quite a few deserve the label.

[Siansonea]

demonic_cookie wrote...

The reason "homophobe" is thrown around is that homosexuality brings out the loudest complaints from fans about a sci-fi video game being unrealistic.

The reason the word "homophobe" is used so much (although I am actually yet to see it "throwing around" everyone keeps talking about) is because a lot of people on this board are homophobic.

Regardless, we were specifically asked by Chris Priestly to be much more circumspect with the use of that word. I just don't want to see the thread locked. If someone comes in and makes blatantly homophobic remarks, that's a "report it and ignore it" situation. If there is ANY doubt, then that word should probably not be included in a response, as it will just serve to up the aggression factor in the discussion. Anyone who isn't homophobic will bristle at being called a homophobe, as will someone who IS homophobic. So regardless of how accurate the characterization is, you're only going to antagonize the person you're trying to have a rational discussion with. Really, there are less aggressive ways to make our points, let's use those.

[Siansonea]

Abispa wrote...

demonic_cookie wrote...

The reason "homophobe" is thrown around is that homosexuality brings out the loudest complaints from fans about a sci-fi video game being unrealistic.

The reason the word "homophobe" is used so much (although I am actually yet to see it "throwing around" everyone keeps talking about) is because a lot of people on this board are homophobic.

Actually, the word "homophobe" really isn't thrown around a lot. Usually the word is brought up by those complaining about s/s romances in the form of "I'm not a homophobe, but...", or "I don't care if you all think I'm a homophobe, but I think..." I'm pretty sure those who disagree with s/s Shepard options feel that being branded a homophobe, real or imagined, gives them some kind of moral victim status.

My own view on this is similar to how I treat overweight people. I don't treat an over-weight person as "fat" until I know for certain that the weight isn't caused by a medical condition. Once I see him or her scarf down a ton of junk food and spend and entire afternoon snacking and refusing to exercise, THAT'S when I'll start suggesting that s/he's had enough, suggest healthier snacks, or that we do some activity that doesn't involve sitting around for hours.

When a person posting complains about s/s ruining his/her immersion into a game, I start reading the post to see how they comment on other aspects of the game, especially previous romances. I don't think I've ever openly accused a commentor on being homophobic, but I have decided that quite a few deserve the label.

People are free to disclaim homophobia all they want, that's not the same thing as calling someone homophobic. Believe me, I'm not in favor of coddling people who actually ARE homophobic, that's not what I'm saying. But destroy them with logic, with dispassion, and with class, not with a one-word dismissal.

[Abispa]

Siansonea II wrote...

People are free to disclaim homophobia all they want, that's not the same thing as calling someone homophobic. Believe me, I'm not in favor of coddling people who actually ARE homophobic, that's not what I'm saying. But destroy them with logic, with dispassion, and with class, not with a one-word dismissal.

Yeah, but unfortunately ME has trained me to destroy things with mass drivers, high speed projectiles and explosives. I'm having trouble readjusting to civilization.

[demonic_cookie]

destroy them with logic, with dispassion, and with class, not with a one-word dismissal.

If you noticed, I was not using the word 'homophobe' in a discussion. I was sharing my feelings with a like-minded individual in a thread that is supposed to be gay-friendly. And I can understand your desire to promote calm and intelligent discussion but was policing my language in this situation really that necessary? Was I hurting anyone by using the word 'homophobe' to describe homophobes? Was it that important to try and dictate my language to me in a supposedly safe (or well, half-safe) space?

[bleetman]

jlb524 wrote...

The 'dating simulator' thing really gets to me...considering all the 'romantic' encounters in a game like The Witcher, I wonder why the same critique isn't levied against that game?

Mmm.

On the bright side, it's moderately amusing. If Dragon Age 2 is a dating simulator, and thus the idea of dating is to sleep together one time then kiss four years later, that does explain where I've been going wrong all these years.

[ArawnNox]

bleetman wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

The 'dating simulator' thing really gets to me...considering all the 'romantic' encounters in a game like The Witcher, I wonder why the same critique isn't levied against that game?

Mmm.

On the bright side, it's moderately amusing. If Dragon Age 2 is a dating simulator, and thus the idea of dating is to sleep together one time then kiss four years later, that does explain where I've been going wrong all these years.

XD

[AngelicMachinery]

dantares83 wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

dantares83 wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

dantares83 wrote...

anyway, I do not agree with turning the existing characters to all bi just because some fans complained that they can't romanced their favorite character (e.g. Kaiden and Tali).. it is silly and have proven failure with DA2...

no doubt they can 'hide' their sexuality from ME1 to 2... but it is ridiculous that everyone is shepard-sexual and/or bi... not everyone are like Asari. I don't see the obession with making Kaiden bi/gay just because he is too hot and some guys should have a chance with him 2... 

but I would definitely welcomed a (or even a few) new gay/bi character(s)... it would make sense because they are gay players out there who refused to romance any of the female characters till now just because it is not who they are...  who is to say that you can't fall in love with someone (FINALLY) while saving Earth...

n don't complain about choices because there aren't many (for the straight) to choose from too... 

I don't know how all the LIs being bi was a problem in DA2.  It was how the romances were structured.  And how is it a proven failure?  Where is this so-called proof?

coz in the real universe, it is unlikely that every of your teammates/friends is falling in love with you...

Eh,  I find it just as "LOLWUT?" when every member of the opposite sex on the ship falls for Shepard. While the probability isn't as high when compared to every member of the crew falling for you...  it just shatters my IMMERZIONZ.  Than I think to myself "Self,  everyone wants Shepard because she's the PC.  Get the hell over it and go kick harbinger's exhaust pipe."

ok... it's weird that all the female/male characters start falling in love with you but hey, u just did them a strong favour and feelings tend to go haywire during those times... 
but it is still more believable that people like Garrus and Kaiden falling in love with a maleShep and Ashley falling in love with femShep

Your logic can apply to S/S as well.  It's really no less believable on one side as it is the other...  it's difficult to discuss realism when we're talking about mass effect romances anyway as you can literally treat them like crap but they still totally want you...  Of course this is more common with male Shepard to be truthful.  It is kind of depressing to see a male happily abusing a female while she still fiends for his sweet sweet man musk,

[xassantex]

the company being Bioware , Shep is bipolar with his paragon/renegade , and he's bisexual ,it all makes sense.
and people who don't agree are just bias(s)ed.

Modifié par xassantex, 02 juillet 2011 - 09:01 .

[Siansonea]

demonic_cookie wrote...

destroy them with logic, with dispassion, and with class, not with a one-word dismissal.

If you noticed, I was not using the word 'homophobe' in a discussion. I was sharing my feelings with a like-minded individual in a thread that is supposed to be gay-friendly. And I can understand your desire to promote calm and intelligent discussion but was policing my language in this situation really that necessary? Was I hurting anyone by using the word 'homophobe' to describe homophobes? Was it that important to try and dictate my language to me in a supposedly safe (or well, half-safe) space?

I'm not trying to attack you, I'm only trying to maintain a peaceful atmosphere in this thread. That means that people who disagree should be allowed to disagree in a civil manner. Much of what I was reading would lead to an adversarial atmosphere if it were directed toward other forumites rather than being discussed as a hypothetical, and I simply wanted to forestall any unpleasant situations that might arise. No offense was intended, and I didn't want to single anyone out. My goal, as always, is to facilitate a lively, but respectful discussion.

[demonic_cookie]

I'm not trying to attack you, I'm only trying to maintain a peaceful atmosphere in this thread.

And I repeat: I was not attacking anybody. I was not calling anyone specific a homophobe. I was calling homophobes homophobes to a person that supports same-sex romance. I was acknowledging everywhere and making every disclaimer that people who disagree respectfully can still disagree. I stated time and again that if they disagree respectfully and have non-homophobic reasons to provide I have no problem with them.

All I said was that a lot of people on these boards are homophobic, and most people don't have non-homophobic arguments for their protest of s/s relationships, which is simply telling the truth. Once again I repeat: I was doing all of these things in a discussion with a supporter, without pointing fingers, and without getting confrontational. Yet you have taken it upon yourself to police my language for the sake of hypothetical people who might feel an "adversarial atmosphere" in a thread that is supposed to make gay people feel accepted and welcomed and not those who can (in most cases rightly) decide that the remark about homophobia by a random person in a random discussion that doesn't involve them for some reason is aimed at them. I do not feel that my right as a gay person to call out homophobia is being respected at all right now, regardless of your intent.

[Siansonea]

@demonic_cookie: I sent you a PM, I think we've just got our wires crossed.

[bleetman]

I'll just drop this here, for no other reason than because I find it amusing.

Also hot. Amusing and hot.

[ArawnNox]

bleetman wrote...

I'll just drop this here, for no other reason than because I find it amusing.

Also hot. Amusing and hot.

Arg! The sandpaper comment... no.. ick!