25715 réponses à ce sujet

[bleetman]

jlb524 wrote...

Plus, if they did something like this (say, make a lesbian only character), the complaining over "the hottest chick in the game being gay and not available for my dude character" would be epic.

It makes me sad that such things are taken into consideration in the first place.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

jlb524 wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
I would prefer that Bioware had a smaller number of romances that actually did something plot-wise and weren't afterthoughts - DA:O did it pretty well, IMO.

If you romanced Morrigan and Alistair...sure.  If Leliana/Zevran...not so much.  The same could be said of DA2 (Anders/Isabela...yes.   Merrill/Fenris...no).

Yeah, I agree there. I'm honestly just happy they did it at all for any of the characters, given how 90% of RPGs do romances.

jlb524 wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
More to the point, however, there's no particular reason Bioware can't write an exclusively gay character if we think it's okay that they also write an exclusively straight character.

Gaider commented on this...they will not write exclusively gay characters.  Romances are already a small part of the game.   While a significant amount of fans do play the s/s content, those that play o/s content are in the majority and they will not add content that the majority can't see.  Plus, if they did something like this (say, make a lesbian only character), the complaining over "the hottest chick in the game being gay and not available for my dude character" would be epic.

Yeah, that's a big part of why I think Gaider, EA, et al. need to nut up and focus on writing a good game instead of a game that tries to pander to as large of a market share as possible. Of course, the whole "art > money" perspective is also why nobody in their right mind would let me design AAA games.

[jlb524]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
I'm actually drawing the line at the lack of exclusively s/s relationships. Bioware not including gay or lesbian characters in their games is kind of an issue considering that they pride themselves on inclusiveness.

So, including bisexuals and giving a homosexual PC the same amount of romance options as a heterosexual PC isn't being inclusive?   Heck then, why just not make them all gay?

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
It takes a trivial amount of resources to cut off paths based on your
choices, and adds a lot to the game in terms of responsiveness to player
decisions.

Their philosophy seems to be:  If something is a minor part of the game, why not make it open to as many players as possible?  This is why I think they did away with class, race, morality checks on romances....let the player have the freedom to decide what type of PC 'fits' with a romance option.

[Maugrim]

Saying your for s/s exclusive doesn't really mean bupkiss because it's already been mentioned by a Bioware developer that chance of it happening in the foreseeable future might as well be nothing, on the forums in the proverbial 'black and white'. Their word has more weight here than your wish and thought that they would/should be inclusive. Not to mention I'd say the majority of our community has very little desire for "exclusive" romances. We know what it's like to miss out and it brings us no joy to lock other people out. There are a few of course but they aren't representative. What the hell would I gain from locking say... Liara to female only? Nothing in my opinion and if yours is different well your just going to have to accept that because you don't have any facts to back up that your opinion is more valid than mine. Not to mention I don't want to hear the b!tchfest there would be if a well liked character would be revealed as s/s only....they whine when they have to share WTH do you think the reaction will be if they can't partake at all? Thanks but no thanks!

David Gaider wrote...


And the person who says that the only way to please them is to restrict options for others is, if you ask me, the one who deserves it least. And that's my opinion, expressed as politely as possible.

Maybe one day that quote will sink in to everyone's brain.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 05 juillet 2011 - 08:01 .

[Siansonea]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

So if we're campaigning to Stop Fanservice OMG, s/s human relationships are a really odd place to draw the line, in my opinion.

I'm actually drawing the line at the lack of exclusively s/s relationships. Bioware not including gay or lesbian characters in their games is kind of an issue considering that they pride themselves on inclusiveness.

Sounds like code for "don't make Existing LI Name Here gay!!!!" to me. We all understand the practical consideration of presenting options in a video game. Bisexual characters is easier to implement than twice as many Heterosexual/Homosexual characters. In a perfect world, we'd have straight, bi, gay and lesbian characters. Maybe on the next console generation.

Siansonea II wrote...

And Witcher 2 wasn't a dating sim, it was a soft-core porn sim. Yeah, THAT'S an improvement over Mass Effect's system. <_<

Cooper Lawrence? Is that you?

I'm making a hand gesture. I'll leave you to figure out what it is. I have SEEN the Witcher 2's much-vaunted "love" scenes, with all the magically disappearing clothes, the camera's love affair with Triss' F-cups and landing strip, and all her grunting. Don't recall seeing much of Geralt's bod. Hmmmm. If anyone thinks that dreck is a sensitive, mature portrayal of an adult relationship, and not blatantly exploitative cheesy faux-porn, well, I've got some beach-front property in Arizona to sell you.

jlb524 wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Why not? That would be awesome.

Resources.

It takes a trivial amount of resources to cut off paths based on your choices, and adds a lot to the game in terms of responsiveness to player decisions.

I'm all for cutting off paths based on the player character's actions. I think Shepard's actions should have far more repercussions with the people in the game. And not just with romance. Some people should up and leave if Shepard does anything too questionable according to their world view. I liked the way DA2 gave Anders, Fenris, Isabela, Sebastian and Merrill a defined world view that came into play when dealing with Hawke. I did not like how Varric just went along with anything, and I even had problems with Aveline's non-committal nature at times. I liked that Carver was a hothead, while Bethany was a quieter, but no less principled, person. I liked that the things they witnessed Hawke doing influenced their attitude toward Hawke. Is was awfully inconvenient at times, and that was great.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 05 juillet 2011 - 08:04 .

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

jlb524 wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
I'm actually drawing the line at the lack of exclusively s/s relationships. Bioware not including gay or lesbian characters in their games is kind of an issue considering that they pride themselves on inclusiveness.

So, including bisexuals and giving a homosexual PC the same amount of romance options as a heterosexual PC isn't being inclusive?   Heck then, why just not make them all gay?

Why not just make them all gay? To my knowledge, an RPG with a gay protagonist hasn't been done yet. Of course, you can't do it with Mass Effect since Shep has already been established as either straight or bi, but it would be a great idea for a future series. Not gonna happen for the forseeable future because of the homophobic backlash a choice like that would result in, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't (artistically) be an awesome decision.

What was the sign I saw at the SF pride parade last week? It was something along the lines of "gays are people, not genitalia." Inclusiveness = including gay characters, not just gay sex.

[Nashiktal]

And for those who are curious, This is a dating sim. 

 

Modifié par Nashiktal, 05 juillet 2011 - 08:06 .

[bleetman]

I suppose the benefit of several lighter romances rather than one or two directly-intertwined-into-the-plot ones is how to balance making them optional without it taking away from said plot. I got the same feeling out of Morrigan or Alistair's romance as I did from Bastila's in KotOR, when compared to the other options: not activating the romance or choosing to play in such a way as to make doing so impossible made several events feel a lot weaker.

Bastila's involvement in the events of KotOR is pretty significant when viewed from a romance angle: the whole force bond thing, Jolee's story about fighting his wife, her capture and fall, and then facing her towards the end. Carth, by contrast, is basically just a guy who's there. The overlapping plot moments as a female Revan felt significantly weaker.

Not that having it essentially removed from everything else that's going on is ideal, but I can sort of see why they did it.

Modifié par bleetman, 05 juillet 2011 - 08:08 .

[jlb524]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Yeah, that's a big part of why I think Gaider, EA, et al. need to nut up and focus on writing a good game instead of a game that tries to pander to as large of a market share as possible. Of course, the whole "art > money" perspective is also why nobody in their right mind would let me design AAA games.

Ah, but art doesn't pay the bills.  That's why they focus on making the most people happy...I guess that's pandering and fan service, but it is what it is.

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

What was the sign I saw at the SF pride parade last week? It was something along the lines of "gays are people, not genitalia." Inclusiveness = including gay characters, not just gay sex.

But, it isn't gay sex, it's gay romance.

Modifié par jlb524, 05 juillet 2011 - 08:10 .

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

makenzieshepard wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

And the person who says that the only way to please them is to restrict options for others is, if you ask me, the one who deserves it least. And that's my opinion, expressed as politely as possible.

Maybe one day that quote will sink in to everyone's brain.

Exactly. I, as a straight person, am wondering why I can't play a game that has a single actual gay or lesbian character in it. It strikes me as pretty problematic, honestly, that the industry is apparently not over its homophobia yet. David Gaider can rationalize however he wants to, but I strongly suspect that at the end of the day the lack of gay characters in Bioware games thus far was a marketing decision,* not an artistic one.

*and/or intervention by LucasArts, where applicable.

[Maugrim]

There have been gay and lesbian characters in Bioware works I can name several off the top of my head. And there are probably more that we just don't know of.  Because being gay doesn't really lend itself to being discussed unless you are trying to sex someone up or vice versa.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 05 juillet 2011 - 08:12 .

[AngelicMachinery]

Nashiktal wrote...

And for those who are curious, This is a dating sim. 

 

Holy ****, there are stats!  If you get loot this is almost an RPG!

[jlb524]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
Exactly. I, as a straight person, am wondering why I can't play a game that has a single actual gay or lesbian character in it. It strikes me as pretty problematic, honestly, that the industry is apparently not over its homophobia yet. David Gaider can rationalize however he wants to, but I strongly suspect that at the end of the day the lack of gay characters in Bioware games thus far was a marketing decision,* not an artistic one.

*and/or intervention by LucasArts, where applicable.

Some games do have actual gay/lesbian characters (FO: NV).

As for romances (in BW games) I only have a problem with a lack of gay/lesbian exclusive characters when there are always heterosexual exclusive characters included (and in ME2's case a crap-load) while those that want s/s content get their 'single token bisexual LI' (if they even get that).  Ultimately, I prefer the removal of gender checks and the 'all bi LI' thing.

[Nashiktal]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

And for those who are curious, This is a dating sim. 

/snip

Holy ****, there are stats!  If you get loot this is almost an RPG!

Well there is item management, and items you get from certain events depending on how you build your stats. (For example sometimes the god of a particular trait will come down to reward you for your efforts in body builiding, or for maintaining your looks.)

You also have to train your stats depending on what job you want, and what girl you are after. You also have to manage money, and manage your school work. 

[bleetman]

Meta Ray Mek wrote...

Yeah, p. much. I can only think of a small handful of openly LGBT characters in the Star Wars universe. Juhani (who was the first gay Star Wars character ever) and the gay Mandalorian couple from some books. That's it.

Kinda sad, really.

Ironic that a fictional background set "a long, long time ago" has such outdated values, really.

[AngelicMachinery]

Nashiktal wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

And for those who are curious, This is a dating sim. 

/snip

Holy ****, there are stats!  If you get loot this is almost an RPG!

Well there is item management, and items you get from certain events depending on how you build your stats. (For example sometimes the god of a particular trait will come down to reward you for your efforts in body builiding, or for maintaining your looks.)

You also have to train your stats depending on what job you want, and what girl you are after. You also have to manage money, and manage your school work. 

And here I thought persona 3-4 were hard core dating sims. 

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Siansonea II wrote...

Sounds like code for "don't make Existing LI Name Here gay!!!!" to me. We all understand the practical consideration of presenting options in a video game. Bisexual characters is easier to implement than twice as many Heterosexual/Homosexual characters. In a perfect world, we'd have straight, bi, gay and lesbian characters. Maybe on the next console generation.

No, it's actually code for "make Vega gay, and specifically a gay dudebro" because IMHO a gay "heavy weapons dudebro guy" type would be awesome and possibly get some people who played the game to reconsider stereotypes. The conversation got turned into a larger discussion of why Bioware has no gay or lesbian characters.

Siansonea II wrote...

I'm making a hand gesture. I'll leave you to figure out what it is. I have SEEN the Witcher 2's much-vaunted "love" scenes, with all the magically disappearing clothes, the camera's love affair with Triss' F-cups and landing strip, and all her grunting. Don't recall seeing much of Geralt's bod. Hmmmm. If anyone thinks that dreck is a sensitive, mature portrayal of an adult relationship, and not blatantly exploitative cheesy faux-porn, well, I've got some beach-front property in Arizona to sell you.

Haha, I was originally just joking about the Cooper Lawrence thing, but now that I see you juding all the content in a game relating to sex, sexuality, and relationships based on an out-of-context sex scene that you saw on the internet somewhere...

(But I do agree with you that the "camera" work in those scenes is hilariously sexist, and an element that definitely undermines the stuff they're doing with the relationship outside of the sex scenes.)

Siansonea II wrote...

I'm all for cutting off paths based on the player character's actions. I think Shepard's actions should have far more repercussions with the people in the game. And not just with romance. Some people should up and leave if Shepard does anything too questionable according to their world view. I liked the way DA2 gave Anders, Fenris, Isabela, Sebastian and Merrill a defined world view that came into play when dealing with Hawke. I did not like how Varric just went along with anything, and I even had problems with Aveline's non-committal nature at times. I liked that Carver was a hothead, while Bethany was a quieter, but no less principled, person. I liked that the things they witnessed Hawke doing influenced their attitude toward Hawke. Is was awfully inconvenient at times, and that was great.

This I also agree with you on. I'm not a huge fan of a lot of the writing relating to Romance in DA2, but that's subjective anyway. What I do like is that the relationships between characters in that game actually influence the plot - that's a really cool step for Bioware to be taking their RPGs in.

[Nashiktal]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

And for those who are curious, This is a dating sim. 

/snip

Holy ****, there are stats!  If you get loot this is almost an RPG!

Well there is item management, and items you get from certain events depending on how you build your stats. (For example sometimes the god of a particular trait will come down to reward you for your efforts in body builiding, or for maintaining your looks.)

You also have to train your stats depending on what job you want, and what girl you are after. You also have to manage money, and manage your school work. 

And here I thought persona 3-4 were hard core dating sims. 

Oh no, Persona is nowhere near a dating sim, and neither is Mass Effect!

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

jlb524 wrote...

Some games do have actual gay/lesbian characters (FO: NV).

 Haha yet another reason I love that game despite the bugs.

[AngelicMachinery]

Nashiktal wrote...



Oh no, Persona is nowhere near a dating sim, and neither is Mass Effect!

I knew mass effect wasn't,  but,  I thought Persona might qualify.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Nashiktal wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

And here I thought persona 3-4 were hard core dating sims. 

Oh no, Persona is nowhere near a dating sim, and neither is Mass Effect!

Yeah, I learned something today.

Modifié par DaveExclamationMarkYognaut, 05 juillet 2011 - 08:38 .

[Nashiktal]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...



Oh no, Persona is nowhere near a dating sim, and neither is Mass Effect!

I knew mass effect wasn't,  but,  I thought Persona might qualify.

Actually romances, along with every other interaction in the person series, is one big play on words. The game is about choosing the right options, and assuming a "persona" to gain bonuses and strengthen your social links. The character has the mighty "zero" persona (in the fool class), that allows him to assume ANY persona.

Its all big commentary in game. 

Modifié par Nashiktal, 05 juillet 2011 - 08:35 .

[Quething]

jlb524 wrote...

Ah, but art doesn't pay the bills.  That's why they focus on making the most people happy...I guess that's pandering and fan service, but it is what it is.

You know, I don't get the whole "fan service" thing. Well, okay, actually, I do get it, but it's utterly wrongheaded. Saying that appealing to your audience is somehow a bad thing, like "art" and fanservice are somehow mutually exclusive, is just inaccurate. The two don't inherently interfere at all. In fact, good writing actually requires a degree of fanservice. Because good writing engages the audience! It gives them a foothold into the world you're creating, a reason to care about and identify with your story and characters, and that means taking into consideration who you're writing for and what they want to see and what they connect with.

I mean obviously you can do fanservice really badly, and just toss stuff out there that you think will please people without consideration toward the integrity of your story. But that's not a fundamental result of fanservice, that's just bog-standard bad writing. Stories don't spring magically from the earth, fully-formed without any input or control from the writer. We put them together with hard work and deep thought, out of our own experiences and cultural context, and we revise them and rewrite them and rework them the same way an engineer revises and reworks a car design, until it feels good, does what we want and has the features we think are important. And just as an engineer might go "well I hadn't originally planned on adding a moonroof, but that seems to be something the customers want," and then seamlessly integrate the moonroof into her design, a writer might go "well it hadn't originally occurred to me to add a s/s romance but that seems to be something the customers want" and seamlessly integrate a s/s romance into his story. And if either of them is worth the money it took to hire them, the result will be a perfectly elegant work of art.

(Though actually I'd call s/s romance more equivalent to a safety feature like front seat airbags or whatever, it's there not just to satisfy the customer but out of an actual desire to make the world a slightly better place, but that's a bit tangent to the fanservice issue, so.)

[PMC65]

I prefer characters to be bi-characters and not het/gay tinged. As I have said in previous posts, having a bi-character just means that you can in either gender role play a romance with that character. So, let’s say my femshep romances Tali … I can role play that Tali is gay. You determine that layer of their sexuality. Making a character restricted to any gender limits your role play on either side.
Where I would like to see limits in the romance (if there are any) is based on the player’s “character” actions … Say my Shepard shot Shaila in the head with Liara there … Why in god’s name would she still want to be with that Shepard? Or take the more douche-baggery options as you kill Benezia .. yep, Liara no longer an option. That was what I really liked about Samara .. While she turns you down, based on your para-ren you get two responses. Paragon (almost kiss) / renegade (pretty much a slap in the face, figuratively speaking).

And if having a “one-way” lover means that “oh, look .. the other team can’t have him/her” … really? How many guys play girls & vice versa? You aren’t keeping anyone from romancing said character … I think the bi-character is the best so that ALL of us can role play as we want. After all, I spent my $$$ and you spent your $$$ and she spent her $$$, all of us should have the ability to dive in, create our stories and romance who we think is appropriate to that character based on actions not gender/species.

But that is just my $.02 on that subject.