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[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Abispa wrote...

2) Romances are accessories, like armor or weapons. They are another means by which we can customize our Shepards.

And that, ladies and gents, is the problem with sexual relationships in Mass Effect in a nutshell.

[Abispa]

ukrainianator wrote...

There's things we can't really relate to (Future Technology and the Physics behind it), and there's things which we deal with every day - relationships between sentinent beings. The conversational interactions with characters in Mass Effect, regardless of character species, is largely based on human cultural norms of interaction. Therefore, even from just a continuity standpoint, it's highly strange that every single of your same-sex companions will be open to a sexual encounter with you.

Doesn't mean it will always be strange.

In the past, a supermodel from today would be considered hideous. In the recent past, no "respectable" White man would consider a Black woman "sexy." Today men and women can marry someone of the same gender legally in some states and nations, but still run the risk of being killed because of their sexuality.

In the ME future Bioware have the Asari helping to break down cultural barriors to sexual relations between sapient species, and that same company may now have the audacity to allow players to have a gay Shepard who digs aliens. Not my thing, but I'll have Ashley, so I'm happy.

[Maugrim]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Abispa wrote...

2) Romances are accessories, like armor or weapons. They are another means by which we can customize our Shepards.

And that, ladies and gents, is the problem with sexual relationships in Mass Effect in a nutshell.

And yet people don't write angry screeds about them and make that the line that can't be crossed.  It's the bisexuals and gays that are the problem.

We didn't buy it yesterday, we aren't buying it today and we won't buy it tommorrow.  Or to put it into more gamer flavored speak that might get through to some people I will let Yahtzee take it from here.

"But as the disbelieving friend said to the inventor of the feces-powered helicopter, "This **** will not fly!"


Beside your worrying over nothing.  Bioware has only had one 'all bisexual game to date and that was DA2.  And no matter how some people howl over it there is nothing unreasonable about 4 people in a group to be bisexual. None. Zip. Zero. Nada. The 10+ from ME might be unusual but not impossible and it doesn't matter because it's not going to happen.  People would realize this if they remember to take their practicality pills each morning.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 05 juillet 2011 - 09:52 .

[Abispa]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Abispa wrote...

2) Romances are accessories, like armor or weapons. They are another means by which we can customize our Shepards.

And that, ladies and gents, is the problem with sexual relationships in Mass Effect in a nutshell.

So YOU are unhappy that someone ELSE may want to play a game differently using the options that BIOWARE SAYS they are going to make available to them. THAT is the problem in a nutshell, for YOU.

And since the primary focus of M.E. SHOULD ALWAYS be a warrior and two buddies weilding machine guns and rocket launchers to save the universe from destruction at the hands of god-like machines, it seems silly to complain about how the understandably limited nature of VIDEO GAME romance ruins realism and immersion.

[AngelicMachinery]

Abispa wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

ArawnNox wrote...

Looking back a few pages, I kinda like Liara's outfit. Makes me eager to see how her character has evolved since ME 2.

Something is seriously wrong with her face though...

Don't worry, I chatted with Chris Priestly about this. Her face is SUPPOSED to be blue.

Yo lie!

[ukrainianator]

Abispa wrote...

ukrainianator wrote...

There's things we can't really relate to (Future Technology and the Physics behind it), and there's things which we deal with every day - relationships between sentinent beings. The conversational interactions with characters in Mass Effect, regardless of character species, is largely based on human cultural norms of interaction. Therefore, even from just a continuity standpoint, it's highly strange that every single of your same-sex companions will be open to a sexual encounter with you.

Doesn't mean it will always be strange.

In the past, a supermodel from today would be considered hideous. In the recent past, no "respectable" White man would consider a Black woman "sexy." Today men and women can marry someone of the same gender legally in some states and nations, but still run the risk of being killed because of their sexuality.

In the ME future Bioware have the Asari helping to break down cultural barriors to sexual relations between sapient species, and that same company may now have the audacity to allow players to have a gay Shepard who digs aliens. Not my thing, but I'll have Ashley, so I'm happy.

I understand your point. But the interactions of Mass Effect have been thus far based on contemporary human interaction, not those of the future, that's the key.

In any regard, argumentation is pointless at this stage because I'm sure that the vast majority of the voice acting has been completed for months, so it's set in stone now.

What I'm worried about is not having enough non-romance character interactions. Thane was the only Romance-available character who really had interesting, somewhat lengthy conversations with Shepard in ME2. Everyone else just set into their "I'm doing calibrations" or "I'm not big into forcing these talks, can we talk later?" 

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Abispa wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Abispa wrote...

2) Romances are accessories, like armor or weapons. They are another means by which we can customize our Shepards.

And that, ladies and gents, is the problem with sexual relationships in Mass Effect in a nutshell.

So YOU are unhappy that someone ELSE may want to play a game differently using the options that BIOWARE SAYS they are going to make available to them. THAT is the problem in a nutshell, for YOU.

And since the primary focus of M.E. SHOULD ALWAYS be a warrior and two buddies weilding machine guns and rocket launchers to save the universe from destruction at the hands of god-like machines, it seems silly to complain about how the understandably limited nature of VIDEO GAME romance ruins realism and immersion.

No, it annoys me that Mass Effect has relationships (at the expense of non-relationship content) but doesn't bother to portray them in a way that is remotely integrated into the story, characters, or really any part of the game. In other words, it turns what should be a storytelling device into another box to check on a given playthrough.

And the argument that "Mass Effect is a video game, of course this story element's gonna suck" is a terrible excuse, because there are works in every medium where relationships are portrayed much more effectively than they are in Mass Effect.

[Maugrim]

ukrainianator wrote...

What I'm worried about is not having enough non-romance character interactions. Thane was the only Romance-available character who really had interesting, somewhat lengthy conversations with Shepard in ME2. Everyone else just set into their "I'm doing calibrations" or "I'm not big into forcing these talks, can we talk later?" 

If what you say is true then don't make it about them being all bisexual.  Your issue is with how they write romances vs friendships.  That has NOTHING to do with orientation.  My lesbian Shepards can't talk with Garrus past a certain point without romancing him, same with Jacob and Thane.... do you see me going around demanding that straight relationships get taken out?  No.  On the characters that didn't romance Liara do you think I would like being stopped at pre-romance interaction? No.  Again I don't ask for stuff to be removed.  I ask for better writing and perhaps more of it.

[ukrainianator]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
No, it annoys me that Mass Effect has relationships (at the expense of non-relationship content) but doesn't bother to portray them in a way that is remotely integrated into the story, characters, or really any part of the game. In other words, it turns what should be a storytelling device into another box to check on a given playthrough.

My thoughts exactly on Romance. It seems to detract from the storytelling of the characters involved.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

makenzieshepard wrote...

And yet people don't write angry screeds about them and make that the line that can't be crossed.  It's the bisexuals and gays that are the problem.

Well, the lack of gays and lesbians is certainly a problem. Another problem is that romances are poorly integrated into the story. These are, IMO, actually symptoms of the same issue - Bioware wants to maximize the number of romances in a given playthrough, and is apparently willing to make inclusion and/or storytelling sacrifices to do so.

[ukrainianator]

makenzieshepard wrote...

ukrainianator wrote...

What I'm worried about is not having enough non-romance character interactions. Thane was the only Romance-available character who really had interesting, somewhat lengthy conversations with Shepard in ME2. Everyone else just set into their "I'm doing calibrations" or "I'm not big into forcing these talks, can we talk later?" 

If what you say is true then don't make it about them being all bisexual.  Your issue is with how they write romances vs friendships.  That has NOTHING to do with orientation.  My lesbian Shepards can't talk with Garrus past a certain point without romancing him, same with Jacob and Thane.... do you see me going around demanding that straight relationships get taken out?  No.  On the characters that didn't romance Liara do you think I would like being stopped at pre-romance interaction? No.  Again I don't ask for stuff to be removed.  I ask for better writing and perhaps more of it.

The problem with romance is that it seems to detract from character storytelling. Being able to romance anyone compounds the problem. Plus it is silly that every one of your companions is open to a sexual encounter with a same-sex individual, considering the statistical distribution of homosexuality (and no, it's not a choice - cultural shift will not change this in the future). That's the problem.

Modifié par ukrainianator, 05 juillet 2011 - 10:05 .

[Ianamus]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

No, it annoys me that Mass Effect has relationships (at the expense of non-relationship content) but doesn't bother to portray them in a way that is remotely integrated into the story, characters, or really any part of the game. In other words, it turns what should be a storytelling device into another box to check on a given playthrough.

And the argument that "Mass Effect is a video game, of course this story element's gonna suck" is a terrible excuse, because there are works in every medium where relationships are portrayed much more effectively than they are in Mass Effect.

Mass Effect 1 had a fair ammount of dialogue with characters whether or not you were in a relationship with them. It was a problem in the second, I agree, but that was due to the huge number of squadmates.

I don't agree at all that the way the romances are handled are bad. They are relevant to the characters and their story archs, and Liara is a perfect example of this. If you make the romances vital or a collosal part of the story then you run the risk of making the romance taking away from the other sections of the game, essentially making it a dating simulator with combat.

I'd also like to point out that the only bisexual squadmember so far, Liara, is the squadmember with the most dialogue over the games outside of a romance (LotSB hadd a crapton of dialogue and character development both in and out of romance) so all those people saying that making the characters bisexual would mean less dialogue are completely wrong.

[ukrainianator]

EJ107 wrote...
I'd also like to point out that the only bisexual squadmember so far, Liara, is the squadmember with the most dialogue over the games outside of a romance (LotSB hadd a crapton of dialogue and character development both in and out of romance) so all those people saying that making the characters bisexual would mean less dialogue are completely wrong.

Now here's a really good point. I hope you're right.

[Maugrim]

ukrainianator wrote...

EJ107 wrote...
I'd also like to point out that the only bisexual squadmember so far, Liara, is the squadmember with the most dialogue over the games outside of a romance (LotSB hadd a crapton of dialogue and character development both in and out of romance) so all those people saying that making the characters bisexual would mean less dialogue are completely wrong.

Now here's a really good point. I hope you're right.

I EJ107...


Maybe we should make the all bisexual.  I mean if we use the same faulty logic that's beeing tossed around here that means all the bisexual romances will be better.  I am so onboard with this

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 05 juillet 2011 - 10:17 .

[jlb524]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

That too, which makes the Bioware "everyone is bisexual, and everyone who is bisexual wants to have sex with you" formula even more problematic. That's why Samara was IMHO a step in the right direction.

The irony being that Samara is a 'bisexual' character...zing!

It's those damn heterosexual romances that ruined ME2!!!

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

EJ107 wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

No, it annoys me that Mass Effect has relationships (at the expense of non-relationship content) but doesn't bother to portray them in a way that is remotely integrated into the story, characters, or really any part of the game. In other words, it turns what should be a storytelling device into another box to check on a given playthrough.

And the argument that "Mass Effect is a video game, of course this story element's gonna suck" is a terrible excuse, because there are works in every medium where relationships are portrayed much more effectively than they are in Mass Effect.

Mass Effect 1 had a fair ammount of dialogue with characters whether or not you were in a relationship with them. It was a problem in the second, I agree, but that was due to the huge number of squadmates.

I don't agree at all that the way the romances are handled are bad. They are relevant to the characters and their story archs, and Liara is a perfect example of this. If you make the romances vital or a collosal part of the story then you run the risk of making the romance taking away from the other sections of the game, essentially making it a dating simulator with combat.

I'd also like to point out that the only bisexual squadmember so far, Liara, is the squadmember with the most dialogue over the games outside of a romance (LotSB hadd a crapton of dialogue and character development both in and out of romance) so all those people saying that making the characters bisexual would mean less dialogue are completely wrong.

Yeah, I think that stretching themselves too thin is the root issue here - there's something like 10 LIs (Liara, Kelly, Ash, Miranda, Jack, Tali, Garrus, Thane, Jacob, Kaidan) with more on the way, and given their dev cycle I think they're biting off way more than they can chew.

The issue I have with ME2 romances (ME1 is a different situation, esp. when you throw Virmire in there) is that they're basically hermetically sealed. So if MaleShep f*cks Tali, it doesn't affect her performance on the suicide mission, isn't noticed by anyone but Mordin or someone else he's "romancing" at the same time, and doesn't lead to getting to know Tali any better. Some are better or worse than this, but all of them could benefit from more dev time.

And in terms of "integration into the plot," I'm talking like they did in Dragon Age. So for instance, Alistair sacrifices himself to save a Warden that romances him and Morrigan's ultimatum and character arc play out differently depending on what the Warden's relationship (friend? lover? uneasy ally?) with her is, and the player is forced to make a judgment call on how much he/she thinks the Warden should trust Morrigan.

[Maugrim]

jlb524 wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

That too, which makes the Bioware "everyone is bisexual, and everyone who is bisexual wants to have sex with you" formula even more problematic. That's why Samara was IMHO a step in the right direction.

The irony being that Samara is a 'bisexual' character...zing!

It's those damn heterosexual romances that ruined ME2!!!

Heterosexuals ruin everything OMG!

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Morrigan's ultimatum and character arc play out differently depending on what the Warden's relationship (friend? lover? uneasy ally?) with her is, and the player is forced to make a judgment call on how much he/she thinks the Warden should trust Morrigan.

Just think how much more heart-wrenching that would be for a female warden who was in a relationship with Morrigan. Would make the M!Warden stuff look like a walk in the park, I mean at least he can be the one to knock her up! Gah it was bad enough sending Loghain to do the deed on my first playthrough if my Warden had been with Morrigan as I had hoped pre-LI annoucements....

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 05 juillet 2011 - 10:22 .

[ukrainianator]

jlb524 wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

That too, which makes the Bioware "everyone is bisexual, and everyone who is bisexual wants to have sex with you" formula even more problematic. That's why Samara was IMHO a step in the right direction.

The irony being that Samara is a 'bisexual' character...zing!

It's those damn heterosexual romances that ruined ME2!!!

Yes, he was pointing out that Samara is a step in the right direction because she is a bisexual character (by default) yet can't be romanced, and I agree.

[ArawnNox]

Okay, this "the romance isn't incorporated into the story" nonsense is annoying me.

The romance/friendship stuff in the games (and it's like this in other media as well) is the sub-plot. Look at most action movies, the romance between two characters is the B-plot. Its secondary to the core story.

If the romance was fully integrated as a core element then it wouldn't be an action game anymore, but would be a romance/action story lacking a clear identity and then the "dating sim" complaints would actually have merit.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

jlb524 wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

That too, which makes the Bioware "everyone is bisexual, and everyone who is bisexual wants to have sex with you" formula even more problematic. That's why Samara was IMHO a step in the right direction.

The irony being that Samara is a 'bisexual' character...zing!

It's those damn heterosexual romances that ruined ME2!!!

Samara's cool because she's a bisexual character who's not into Shep, which is to my knowledge the first time Bioware has made a companion like that. Oh, and speaking of stereotypical depictions of bisexual people, Kelly. That is all.

And yeah, 8+ hetero romances (and 10+ total romances) is going to be a drain on any game's resources. Mass Effect 2 compensated for the sheer number of romances by making them all hilariously shallow.

[ArawnNox]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

No, it annoys me that Mass Effect has relationships (at the expense of non-relationship content) but doesn't bother to portray them in a way that is remotely integrated into the story, characters, or really any part of the game. In other words, it turns what should be a storytelling device into another box to check on a given playthrough.

And the argument that "Mass Effect is a video game, of course this story element's gonna suck" is a terrible excuse, because there are works in every medium where relationships are portrayed much more effectively than they are in Mass Effect.

Mass Effect 1 had a fair ammount of dialogue with characters whether or not you were in a relationship with them. It was a problem in the second, I agree, but that was due to the huge number of squadmates.

I don't agree at all that the way the romances are handled are bad. They are relevant to the characters and their story archs, and Liara is a perfect example of this. If you make the romances vital or a collosal part of the story then you run the risk of making the romance taking away from the other sections of the game, essentially making it a dating simulator with combat.

I'd also like to point out that the only bisexual squadmember so far, Liara, is the squadmember with the most dialogue over the games outside of a romance (LotSB hadd a crapton of dialogue and character development both in and out of romance) so all those people saying that making the characters bisexual would mean less dialogue are completely wrong.

Yeah, I think that stretching themselves too thin is the root issue here - there's something like 10 LIs (Liara, Kelly, Ash, Miranda, Jack, Tali, Garrus, Thane, Jacob, Kaidan) with more on the way, and given their dev cycle I think they're biting off way more than they can chew.

The issue I have with ME2 romances (ME1 is a different situation, esp. when you throw Virmire in there) is that they're basically hermetically sealed. So if MaleShep f*cks Tali, it doesn't affect her performance on the suicide mission, isn't noticed by anyone but Mordin or someone else he's "romancing" at the same time, and doesn't lead to getting to know Tali any better. Some are better or worse than this, but all of them could benefit from more dev time.

And in terms of "integration into the plot," I'm talking like they did in Dragon Age. So for instance, Alistair sacrifices himself to save a Warden that romances him and Morrigan's ultimatum and character arc play out differently depending on what the Warden's relationship (friend? lover? uneasy ally?) with her is, and the player is forced to make a judgment call on how much he/she thinks the Warden should trust Morrigan.

Point of order: Morrigan's ultimatum does not play out differently based on her relationship to the Warden. It was intended to, but that, like s/s contend for ME 1 and 2, got cut.

[shepskisaac]

ukrainianator wrote...
But now, the ability to romance any of your squad, regardless of species or sex... Beyond nonsensical.

Source please whe you got this breaking news how you can romance anyone from the squad with both fem and mShep.

[ArawnNox]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

That too, which makes the Bioware "everyone is bisexual, and everyone who is bisexual wants to have sex with you" formula even more problematic. That's why Samara was IMHO a step in the right direction.

The irony being that Samara is a 'bisexual' character...zing!

It's those damn heterosexual romances that ruined ME2!!!

Samara's cool because she's a bisexual character who's not into Shep, which is to my knowledge the first time Bioware has made a companion like that. Oh, and speaking of stereotypical depictions of bisexual people, Kelly. That is all.

And yeah, 8+ hetero romances (and 10+ total romances) is going to be a drain on any game's resources. Mass Effect 2 compensated for the sheer number of romances by making them all hilariously shallow.

Actually, if you play a mostly paragon Shep, she's very into him/her, but refuses to compromise her oath.

[jlb524]

ukrainianator wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

That too, which makes the Bioware "everyone is bisexual, and everyone who is bisexual wants to have sex with you" formula even more problematic. That's why Samara was IMHO a step in the right direction.

The irony being that Samara is a 'bisexual' character...zing!

It's those damn heterosexual romances that ruined ME2!!!

Yes, he was pointing out that Samara is a step in the right direction because she is a bisexual character (by default) yet can't be romanced, and I agree.

Yes, and that's needed for some reason, while it's perfectly okay that all the attractive heterosexual characters always want to jump in the protagonists pants....but that never needs qualified with an attractive hetero character that doesn't want that.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

ArawnNox wrote...

Okay, this "the romance isn't incorporated into the story" nonsense is annoying me.

The romance/friendship stuff in the games (and it's like this in other media as well) is the sub-plot. Look at most action movies, the romance between two characters is the B-plot. Its secondary to the core story.

If the romance was fully integrated as a core element then it wouldn't be an action game anymore, but would be a romance/action story lacking a clear identity and then the "dating sim" complaints would actually have merit.

Die Hard. The romance in that is integrated in that the relationship between two characters has a significant bearing on the movie's central plot. That's literally all I'm asking.