25715 réponses à ce sujet

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

ArawnNox wrote...

Point of order: Morrigan's ultimatum does not play out differently based on her relationship to the Warden. It was intended to, but that, like s/s contend for ME 1 and 2, got cut.

I was counting Witch Hunt as part of the ultimate reprecussions of the ultimatum.

[jlb524]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
The issue I have with ME2 romances (ME1 is a different situation, esp. when you throw Virmire in there) is that they're basically hermetically sealed. So if MaleShep f*cks Tali, it doesn't affect her performance on the suicide mission, isn't noticed by anyone but Mordin or someone else he's "romancing" at the same time, and doesn't lead to getting to know Tali any better. Some are better or worse than this, but all of them could benefit from more dev time.

Interesting...you seem to have a problem with the ME2 romances the most (the straightest romances evar).  Though, I wonder why you bring up the complaints you have in the s/s romance thread and not the other romance threads for Tali, Miranda, etc....

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
And in terms of "integration into the plot," I'm talking like they did in Dragon Age. So for instance, Alistair sacrifices himself to save a Warden that romances him and Morrigan's ultimatum and character arc play out differently depending on what the Warden's relationship (friend? lover? uneasy ally?) with her is, and the player is forced to make a judgment call on how much he/she thinks the Warden should trust Morrigan.

The Alistair thing is a nice touch (but I almost want to say, 'big whoop?  Is that it?') and the Morrigan thing is relationship dependent but not necessarily romance dependent (I think you get a few extra lines if you are actually romancing her...the rest is the same). 

I'm still not sure why romances absolutely have to be tied to the plot in some way in order to be 'good'.   My favorite DA romances (Leliana and Merrill) were completely plot independent but I still enjoyed them for what they were...and I'm not about to go romance Morrigan or Anders instead cuz they have a couple of extra lines of dialog when something big happens.

[Maugrim]

elektrego

The bun effect...so is that why I lurve both Ashley and Gianna Parasini so much? Guess that explains it!

“I love nailing asari. So ageless and superior — then you get them, and they squeal like schoolgirls.”

I mean come on!  How can she not give femshep a kiss with lines like that >.<

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 05 juillet 2011 - 10:33 .

[Ianamus]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

That too, which makes the Bioware "everyone is bisexual, and everyone who is bisexual wants to have sex with you" formula even more problematic. That's why Samara was IMHO a step in the right direction.

After waiting two games for a m/m or (non-Asari) f/f LI, adding a bisexual character in ME3 and not making them romanceable would be a HUGE slap in the face for those people. If they add more than one bi person (so you can have a non-romanceable bi squadmember), then people will complain that "everyone is bi" just like you said in your post.

[ArawnNox]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

ArawnNox wrote...

Okay, this "the romance isn't incorporated into the story" nonsense is annoying me.

The romance/friendship stuff in the games (and it's like this in other media as well) is the sub-plot. Look at most action movies, the romance between two characters is the B-plot. Its secondary to the core story.

If the romance was fully integrated as a core element then it wouldn't be an action game anymore, but would be a romance/action story lacking a clear identity and then the "dating sim" complaints would actually have merit.

Die Hard. The romance in that is integrated in that the relationship between two characters has a significant bearing on the movie's central plot. That's literally all I'm asking.

The most it does is put John McClain in the Yakatomi Plaza building. That could have been accomplished without the strained marraige sub-plot.

Edit: And, at most, that is given 5 minutes of screen-time. Kinda comperable to the romances in the Bioware RPGs, if you were to cut out all travel time.

Modifié par ArawnNox, 05 juillet 2011 - 10:38 .

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

ArawnNox wrote...

Actually, if you play a mostly paragon Shep, she's very into him/her, but refuses to compromise her oath.

elektrego wrote...

Samara is into Shepard regardless of
gender, if he/she is a Paragon. Her reason for not pursuing a romance is
her age and her being a justicar. Just wanted to make that clear. And
at least you can hit on her, in most cases you can't even hit on the
same gender. It's annoying as hell to not be able to tell someone how
you feel about them.

Haha really? I must have missed that. Okay, so I'll have to put "bisexual squadmate not attracted to the protagonist" back on my long, long list of things I want Bioware to do.

jlb524 wrote...

Yes, and that's needed for some
reason, while it's perfectly okay that all the attractive heterosexual
characters always want to jump in the protagonists pants....but that
never needs qualified with an attractive hetero character that doesn't
want that.

Kasumi is an example of a hetero
character I like the romance subplot of, in that it's with someone other
than Shep and integrated into her loyalty mission in a pretty cool way.
And yeah, I don't like "all hetero characters are attracted to the
protagonist" either. See also: Witcher 1.

[jlb524]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Kasumi is an example of a hetero
character I like the romance subplot of, in that it's with someone other
than Shep and integrated into her loyalty mission in a pretty cool way.
And yeah, I don't like "all hetero characters are attracted to the
protagonist" either. See also: Witcher 1.

I'd say it's b/c Kasumi is just a DLC character (and not even a Day 1 DLC character) who lacks a conversation wheel, so it kinda makes sense they didn't go with her as an LI (and she could be bisexual for all we know).

Garrus and Tali though?  Their species weren't designed to be attractive or to be LIs in ME1, but people thought they were 'hot' for whatever reason and wanted to romance them...so they got em in ME2.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

ArawnNox wrote...

The most it does is put John McClain in the Yakatomi Plaza building. That could have been accomplished without the strained marraige sub-plot.

It actually plays a pretty big role in the plot re: the movie's final hostage situation, and gives things that would be generic action movie plot points an emotional resonance. There are reasons why Die Hard holds up well as a movie, and the integration of a romance subplot is a major one.

[Maugrim]

elektrego wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...

elektrego

The bun effect...so is that why I lurve both Ashley and Gianna Parasini so much? Guess that explains it!

“I love nailing asari. So ageless and superior — then you get them, and they squeal like schoolgirls.”

I mean come on!  How can she not give femshep a kiss with lines like that >.<

After a long series of studies on the phenomenon, I have come to the same conclusion.

And at least one of my FemSheps got a little sad mad, when I told her, that ManShep gets a peck on the cheek, because she thought, she got a certain vibe from her on Noveria.

Ok so now we need another chance to get Ash back into the bun look and haver her and Gianna in the same room again.  Purely so we can use the oh so witty pickup line "Nice set of buns!"

That'll work, right?

<_<

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 05 juillet 2011 - 10:46 .

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

jlb524 wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
The issue I have with ME2 romances (ME1 is a different situation, esp. when you throw Virmire in there) is that they're basically hermetically sealed. So if MaleShep f*cks Tali, it doesn't affect her performance on the suicide mission, isn't noticed by anyone but Mordin or someone else he's "romancing" at the same time, and doesn't lead to getting to know Tali any better. Some are better or worse than this, but all of them could benefit from more dev time.

Interesting...you seem to have a problem with the ME2 romances the most (the straightest romances evar).  Though, I wonder why you bring up the complaints you have in the s/s romance thread and not the other romance threads for Tali, Miranda, etc....

Oh, initially my comment was along the lines of "hey, they should make Vega exclusively gay because having a 'heavy weapons guy' type character who is gay would be somewhat original, and might give some of the TPS crossover demographic food for thought."

Modifié par DaveExclamationMarkYognaut, 05 juillet 2011 - 10:46 .

[VirtualStranger]

bleetman wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

So I just threw my hands into the air in my next play through and modded Bastila

I'm going to be requiring this, right now.

D:

http://knightsoftheoldrepublic.filefront.com/file/Bastila_Female_Revan_Untold_Love_Story;73255x

If I remember correctly the author tinkered a bit with the files try to make it seem more like a lesbian romance instead of a just the original M/F romance.

Thank you so much. Now I just need to figure out how to get KotOR working on Windows 7.

Modifié par VirtualStranger, 05 juillet 2011 - 10:46 .

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

EJ107 wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

That too, which makes the Bioware "everyone is bisexual, and everyone who is bisexual wants to have sex with you" formula even more problematic. That's why Samara was IMHO a step in the right direction.

After waiting two games for a m/m or (non-Asari) f/f LI, adding a bisexual character in ME3 and not making them romanceable would be a HUGE slap in the face for those people. If they add more than one bi person (so you can have a non-romanceable bi squadmember), then people will complain that "everyone is bi" just like you said in your post.

Or, you know, you could have some gay characters too. Or mix and match. It honestly doesn't need to be Mass Effect either - any bioware game where "this companion is bi, but not into you" would be a step forward.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

elektrego wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Haha really? I must have missed that. Okay, so I'll have to put "bisexual squadmate not attracted to the protagonist" back on my long, long list of things I want Bioware to do.

Note that you can only get the 'romantic' dialogue, with her, if you are mostly Paragon.
One of the reasons, I think the everyone-can-be-bi-option* is the best option for Mass Effect, is that romances are possible regardless of the way you play your character. You can be a murderous s.o.b. and still Ashley wants to be with you, which is hard to believe for me based on her character.
"Realism" is already stretched, when it comes to romances.
It is afterall only a minor sub-plot, that imo serves the purpose to deepen the emotional experience for the player. Why not allow players to choose the romance combination that actually accomplishes this?

* I am not saying everyone-is-bi, because if implemented right a LI's sexual orientation only comes up if the PC inittiates a romance path. If you feel the need to hit on everyone it's your own fault.

Well, if something's part of the game it's part of the game whether or not it's in a particular playthough. But I can actually get behind your argument for making some of the straight LIs in Mass Effect (in particular) bisexual. Honestly, the best way to do it would be to include a small set of well-integrated romances of any sexuality that check for stuff like actions the player takes, but the point that the ship has already left long ago on that is well-taken.

[shepskisaac]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
Or, you know, you could have some gay characters too. Or mix and match. It honestly doesn't need to be Mass Effect either - any bioware game where "this companion is bi, but not into you" would be a step forward.

Yeah, let's leave it for some other time. Making one of the guys bi/gay in ME3 and not able to romance would be basically just trolling gay guys who's been waiting for s/s option since day one.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 05 juillet 2011 - 11:13 .

[rudenotginger]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I have to say I'm a little puzzle by the people who are bothered by potential s/s romances, and the whole "everyone is bi" thing. The way I always figured it would be if I play FemShep and want a romance with Ashley, Ashley would be a lesbian. If I play MaleShep, then she would be straight. Either way, if I don't want to romance her, I don't. It doesn't change my gameplay as a whole no matter what I do. It doesn't change my game what other players do. I mean, loads of people romance Tali, but I have no interest in doing so, so I just don't. What exactly is the problem?

[ArawnNox]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

ArawnNox wrote...

The most it does is put John McClain in the Yakatomi Plaza building. That could have been accomplished without the strained marraige sub-plot.

It actually plays a pretty big role in the plot re: the movie's final hostage situation, and gives things that would be generic action movie plot points an emotional resonance. There are reasons why Die Hard holds up well as a movie, and the integration of a romance subplot is a major one.

That's not a romance, though. That's a character relationship. Could that scene have just as much emotional weight if it was his sister instead of his wife?
He wins her back (which officially ends by the third movie, don't forget) by killing a lot of german terrorists. Not through emotional connections or resolving the issues that put their marraige on the rocks to begin with.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

rudenotginger wrote...

I haven't read the whole thread, but I have to say I'm a little puzzle by the people who are bothered by potential s/s romances, and the whole "everyone is bi" thing. The way I always figured it would be if I play FemShep and want a romance with Ashley, Ashley would be a lesbian. If I play MaleShep, then she would be straight. Either way, if I don't want to romance her, I don't. It doesn't change my gameplay as a whole no matter what I do. It doesn't change my game what other players do. I mean, loads of people romance Tali, but I have no interest in doing so, so I just don't. What exactly is the problem?

Yeah, because a character's sexuality should totally be a choice they make based on the situation, just like it is in the real world. I'm not a fan of the whole DA2 "sitch sexuality" school of thought. I think if that Bioware wants to include gay romances (and they should), they should nut up and actually write gay and bisexual characters.

[PMC65]

IsaacShep wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
Or, you know, you could have some gay characters too. Or mix and match. It honestly doesn't need to be Mass Effect either - any bioware game where "this companion is bi, but not into you" would be a step forward.

Yeah, let's leave it for some other time. Making one of the guys bi/gay in ME3 and not able to romance would be basically just trolling gay guys who's been waiting for s/s option since day one.

C'mon @IsaacShep, don't you want to hand over your hard-earned $$$ to pay for rejection?

Oh, wait .. I do that already when I go clubbing.     

Not in my video games though ... unless I play a douchebag Shepard, then I would deserve it - tenfold.

[ArawnNox]

rudenotginger wrote...

I haven't read the whole thread, but I have to say I'm a little puzzle by the people who are bothered by potential s/s romances, and the whole "everyone is bi" thing. The way I always figured it would be if I play FemShep and want a romance with Ashley, Ashley would be a lesbian. If I play MaleShep, then she would be straight. Either way, if I don't want to romance her, I don't. It doesn't change my gameplay as a whole no matter what I do. It doesn't change my game what other players do. I mean, loads of people romance Tali, but I have no interest in doing so, so I just don't. What exactly is the problem?

The reaction to that seems to be that people can't put aside the meta-knowledge that in another playthrough universe their "bro-Kaidan" is getting it on with a Man!Shep.

Or that opening up characters to the s/s option (originally intended or not) is a compromise of characterization.

The current topic at hand seems to be the beleif that theres so many romance options that adiquate time can't be devoted to each of them.

I think that's not giving Bioware enough credit since they extended the dev time by almost a whole year.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

ArawnNox wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

ArawnNox wrote...

The most it does is put John McClain in the Yakatomi Plaza building. That could have been accomplished without the strained marraige sub-plot.

It actually plays a pretty big role in the plot re: the movie's final hostage situation, and gives things that would be generic action movie plot points an emotional resonance. There are reasons why Die Hard holds up well as a movie, and the integration of a romance subplot is a major one.

That's not a romance, though. That's a character relationship. Could that scene have just as much emotional weight if it was his sister instead of his wife?
He wins her back (which officially ends by the third movie, don't forget) by killing a lot of german terrorists. Not through emotional connections or resolving the issues that put their marraige on the rocks to begin with.

You should re-watch that movie, and pay attention to the number of times the fact that they're married has a bearing on the plot or creates some sort of character moment that wouldn't have been there otherwise. I think you'll be surprised.

(The point is that a work doesn't have to be a romance to include a romantic relationship. Die Hard is far from the only example of a non-romance story that strategically uses romance.)