25715 réponses à ce sujet

[DrNavi]

i'm not against M/M romance, I did it once in both dragon age games(but I think DA2 didn't do it very well) however I do think throwing it into the last game would be a bad choice as shep showed no interest in guys during the first or second, if they do it though it better be a new character and not a established character

it would probably be ok for femshep though as you can romance liara and flirt with kelly so you can already play her as gay

[ArawnNox]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

ArawnNox wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

ArawnNox wrote...

The most it does is put John McClain in the Yakatomi Plaza building. That could have been accomplished without the strained marraige sub-plot.

It actually plays a pretty big role in the plot re: the movie's final hostage situation, and gives things that would be generic action movie plot points an emotional resonance. There are reasons why Die Hard holds up well as a movie, and the integration of a romance subplot is a major one.

That's not a romance, though. That's a character relationship. Could that scene have just as much emotional weight if it was his sister instead of his wife?
He wins her back (which officially ends by the third movie, don't forget) by killing a lot of german terrorists. Not through emotional connections or resolving the issues that put their marraige on the rocks to begin with.

You should re-watch that movie, and pay attention to the number of times the fact that they're married has a bearing on the plot or creates some sort of character moment that wouldn't have been there otherwise. I think you'll be surprised.

(The point is that a work doesn't have to be a romance to include a romantic relationship. Die Hard is far from the only example of a non-romance story that strategically uses romance.)

I never said it has to be a romance to have a romantic plot. What I said was if you make the romance as important as the main plot then it becomes a romance. It changes genres because the focus of the story shifts.

Highlander is a romance, for example. I'm serious, look at it, the movie has more to do with Connor MacLeod's romantic engagements and learning to love again than it does with his conflict with the Kurgan.

[shepskisaac]

DrNavi wrote...
it would probably be ok for femshep though as you can romance liara and flirt with kelly so you can already play her as gay

And since ManShep and FemShep are the same character it's ok for ManShep as well. The fact ME1 & ME2 had an in-game inconsistency and logic flaw in the options for male and female Shepard shouldn't be a reason why ManShep would be deprived of an option to romance one of the old characters.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 05 juillet 2011 - 11:40 .

[DrNavi]

IsaacShep wrote...

DrNavi wrote...
it would probably be ok for femshep though as you can romance liara and flirt with kelly so you can already play her as gay

And since ManShep and FemShep are the same character it's ok for ManShep as well. The fact ME1 & ME2 had an in-game inconsistency and logic flaw in the options for male and female Shepard shouldn't be a reason why ManShep would be deprived of an option to romance one of the old characters.

romances are very different though, they have developed, as I say I would not be against it if they included it in the first game, throwing it into the third game in the series makes it  feel tacked on

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

elektrego wrote...

Of course it would be nice, to have a romance integrated into the main plot, but to make it feasable for a game like Mass Effect you would have to drastically cut down the number of LI's, but then only those players who like the availabe LI's get to enjoy this part of the game, everybody else loses out.

Maybe the problem is that a lot of people in the game industry tends to assume that LIs should be designed to be attractive to the player instead of as part of a story.

I mean, it turns out fine when LIs aren't designed to be attractive. Take Lili from Psychonauts - I'd certainly hope that she isn't attractive to anyone. She's a great addition, though, and has some of the funniest dialogue in the game. So you have love interests that, while not attractive to the player, make the game better.

[shepskisaac]

DrNavi wrote...
romances are very different though, they have developed,

Not between characters that didn't romance each other. Not all romances need to start right away. Tali & Garrus are good example people are sometimes friends first and only after some time they become romantically involved.

DrNavi wrote...
as I say I would not be against it if they included it in the first game, throwing it into the third game in the series makes it  feel tacked on

And I'm still very happy it's happening. As a gay guy, I've been waiting for this since ME1 where Kaidan was suppoused to be an option for me. Finally it will happen, better late than never for me.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 05 juillet 2011 - 11:48 .

[DrNavi]

IsaacShep wrote...

DrNavi wrote...
as I say I would not be against it if they included it in the first game, throwing it into the third game in the series makes it  feel tacked on

And I'm still very happy it's happening. As a gay guy, I've been waiting for this since ME1 where Kaidan was suppoused to be an option for me. Finally it will happen, better late than never for me.

why did they remove that? shoulda kept it, anyway I'm not sure I agree with better late than never, turning an established charecter suddenly gay just doesn't seem to work, it doesn't seem realistic. i'll use anders as an example, turning him suddenly gay didn't fit with awakening where it was already established that he was straight. Same with kaiden. 

I think they could probably pull off M/M romance if they made James Vaga or any other new charecter gay but not one already established 

[shepskisaac]

DrNavi wrote...
why did they remove that? shoulda kept it, anyway I'm not sure I agree with better late than never, turning an established charecter suddenly gay just doesn't seem to work, it doesn't seem realistic. i'll use anders as an example, turning him suddenly gay didn't fit with awakening where it was already established that he was straight. Same with kaiden.

I think they could probably pull off M/M romance if they made James Vaga or any other new charecter gay but not one already established

When does he establish his sexuality? He never declares anything regarding his attraction or lack of it towards men. Furthermore, if it wasn't for the time constraints, he would've been a bisexual romance option since ME1. Also, gay = exclusive attraction to same gender, bi = attraction to BOTH genders (means bisexual Kaidan likes both men AND women), straight = exclusive attraction to opposite gender. If someone was turned from straight to gay, then it would conflict with previously established facts such as attraction to the opposite gender. But if someone reveals he/she is bisexual, it doesn't conflict with anything.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 06 juillet 2011 - 12:03 .

[Siansonea]

DrNavi wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

DrNavi wrote...
as I say I would not be against it if they included it in the first game, throwing it into the third game in the series makes it  feel tacked on

And I'm still very happy it's happening. As a gay guy, I've been waiting for this since ME1 where Kaidan was suppoused to be an option for me. Finally it will happen, better late than never for me.

why did they remove that? shoulda kept it, anyway I'm not sure I agree with better late than never, turning an established charecter suddenly gay just doesn't seem to work, it doesn't seem realistic. i'll use anders as an example, turning him suddenly gay didn't fit with awakening where it was already established that he was straight. Same with kaiden. 

I think they could probably pull off M/M romance if they made James Vaga or any other new charecter gay but not one already established 

Somebody want to copy and paste the standard boilerplate about Anders being a fusion of Anders and Justice, and that his sexuality "change", if there is one, might be a by-product of, oh I don't know, fusing with a FADE SPIRIT, and is less of a continuity issue than say, the fact that he could be DEAD? Can anyone do that?

Yeah, if we're going to champion REALISM, let's get rid of stupid resurrection, stupid end bosses, stupid Cerberus railroad plots, and things like that, before we start nitpicking about whether so-and-so could believably be bisexual.

[Roachbugg]

DrNavi wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

DrNavi wrote...
as I say I would not be against it if they included it in the first game, throwing it into the third game in the series makes it  feel tacked on

And I'm still very happy it's happening. As a gay guy, I've been waiting for this since ME1 where Kaidan was suppoused to be an option for me. Finally it will happen, better late than never for me.

why did they remove that? shoulda kept it, anyway I'm not sure I agree with better late than never, turning an established charecter suddenly gay just doesn't seem to work, it doesn't seem realistic. i'll use anders as an example, turning him suddenly gay didn't fit with awakening where it was already established that he was straight. Same with kaiden. 

I think they could probably pull off M/M romance if they made James Vaga or any other new charecter gay but not one already established 

[DrNavi]

IsaacShep wrote...

DrNavi wrote...
why did they remove that? shoulda kept it, anyway I'm not sure I agree with better late than never, turning an established charecter suddenly gay just doesn't seem to work, it doesn't seem realistic. i'll use anders as an example, turning him suddenly gay didn't fit with awakening where it was already established that he was straight. Same with kaiden.

I think they could probably pull off M/M romance if they made James Vaga or any other new charecter gay but not one already established

When does he establish his sexuality? He never declares anything regarding his attraction or lack of it towards men. Furthermore, if it wasn't for the time constraints, he would've been a bisexual romance option since ME1. Also, gay = exclusive attraction to same gender, bi = attraction to BOTH genders (means bisexual Kaidan likes both men AND women), straight = exclusive attraction to opposite gender. If someone was turned from straight to gay, then it would conflict with previously established facts such as attraction to the opposite gender. But if someone reveals he/she is bisexual, it doesn't conflict with anything.

he just never struck me as being into guys, mentioning Rana and women a few time, also I do know what bisexual is (figured you would have guessed when I mentioned i did the gay options in dragon age)

hmm.....I guess if they made him bi it could work.....maybe 

Modifié par DrNavi, 06 juillet 2011 - 12:15 .

[shepskisaac]

DrNavi wrote...
he just never struck me as being into guys, mentioning Rana and women a few time, also I do know what bisexual is (figured you would have guessed when I mentioned i did the gay options in dragon age)

hmm.....I guess if they made him bi it could work.....maybe

If you save him on Virmire and then meet at Horizon, it's kinda obvious he's into ManShep, even though he doesn't say it openly. He wouldn't say anything excplictly by himself anyway, even in ME1 since Kaidan thinks Shep is straight. It's already part of the story. He admits to FemShep that he didn't realize she wasn't straight (triangle scene with FemShep/Kaidan/Liara) and he also makes it clear he wouldn't bother flirting/pursuing FemShep in the first place had he knew that. He assumes the same thing about ManShep. But with the obvious gender difference, it's only FemShep that he thinks he has a chance with since straight women likes men, so he doesn't hold back from flirting with her. Straight ManShep (in his assumption) doesn't like men, so no flirting/hitting on. It'll be Shepard that will have to make the first move and let Kaidan know he ain't straight before Kaidan makes any move himself.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 06 juillet 2011 - 12:27 .

[KawaiiKatie]

IsaacShep wrote...

Straight ManShep (in his assumption) doesn't like men, so no flirting/hitting on. It'll be Shepard that will have to make the first move and let Kaidan know he ain't straight before Kaidan makes any move himself.

Not to mention, femShep has the advantage of "saving" Kaidan from the Prothean Beacon on Eden Prime. He soon thanks femShep in the med-bay, and if she is kind to him, it's clear that Kaidan starts to become smitten with his rescuer.

But manShep has to save Ash. He doesn't have to be kind to her or flirtatous at all with Ash, but he does have to save her from the Beacon. He is denied the chance to save Kaidan, and possibly earn Kaidan's admiration the way femShep can.

So yes, it's entirely likely that Kaidan assumed that manShep was straight, even after manShep saves him on Virmire. After all, everyone seems to assume that manShep is straight (huge annoyance, btw) so I can hardly fault Kaidan for coming to that conclusion.

But the minute my manShep has the option to flirt with Kaidan, oh man, that misconception will be dispersed.

[DrNavi]

IsaacShep wrote...

DrNavi wrote...
he just never struck me as being into guys, mentioning Rana and women a few time, also I do know what bisexual is (figured you would have guessed when I mentioned i did the gay options in dragon age)

hmm.....I guess if they made him bi it could work.....maybe

If you save him on Virmire and then meet at Horizon, it's kinda obvious he's into ManShep, even though he doesn't say it openly. He wouldn't say anything excplictly by himself anyway, even in ME1 since Kaidan thinks Shep is straight. It's already part of the story. He admits to FemShep that he didn't realize she wasn't straight (triangle scene with FemShep/Kaidan/Liara) and he also makes it clear he wouldn't bother flirting/pursuing FemShep in the first place had he knew that. He assumes the same thing about ManShep. But with the obvious gender difference, it's only FemShep that he thinks he has a chance with since straight women likes men, so he doesn't hold back from flirting with her. Straight ManShep (in his assumption) doesn't like men, so no flirting/hitting on. It'll be Shepard that will have to make the first move and let Kaidan know he ain't straight before Kaidan makes any move himself.

as long as shepard makes the first move, didn't like how everyone hit on you in DA2, Mass Effect 2 did it perfectly where you pretty much initiated everything

[Maugrim]

DrNavi wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

DrNavi wrote...
he just never struck me as being into guys, mentioning Rana and women a few time, also I do know what bisexual is (figured you would have guessed when I mentioned i did the gay options in dragon age)

hmm.....I guess if they made him bi it could work.....maybe

If you save him on Virmire and then meet at Horizon, it's kinda obvious he's into ManShep, even though he doesn't say it openly. He wouldn't say anything excplictly by himself anyway, even in ME1 since Kaidan thinks Shep is straight. It's already part of the story. He admits to FemShep that he didn't realize she wasn't straight (triangle scene with FemShep/Kaidan/Liara) and he also makes it clear he wouldn't bother flirting/pursuing FemShep in the first place had he knew that. He assumes the same thing about ManShep. But with the obvious gender difference, it's only FemShep that he thinks he has a chance with since straight women likes men, so he doesn't hold back from flirting with her. Straight ManShep (in his assumption) doesn't like men, so no flirting/hitting on. It'll be Shepard that will have to make the first move and let Kaidan know he ain't straight before Kaidan makes any move himself.

as long as shepard makes the first move, didn't like how everyone hit on you in DA2, Mass Effect 2 did it perfectly where you pretty much initiated everything

This did not happen.  And repeating it won't make it true.  I guess your talking about Anders right?  Because he is the only one that flirts with you without you initiating it.  And then ONLY if you choose all the upper left/nice options.  He does this because it is in character and needy. It has nothing to do with the characters sexuality and everything to do with personality.  My femshep had to put up with unwanted advances in ME1 and ME2 from NPC's and I dealt with it.  I suggest you do the same.  If you must agitated against unwanted advances then apply it equally not just against gay/bisexuals or I will question your true motives.

[Ryzaki]

Yup I'm against unwanted advanceds across the board. Tali and Kaidan coming onto my dude Shep disturbs him in equal measure. DO NOT WANT.

[Maugrim]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yup I'm against unwanted advanceds across the board. Tali and Kaidan coming onto my dude Shep disturbs him in equal measure. DO NOT WANT.

And that's fair.  Personally I'm not against unwanted advances as long as they are in character and there is a big fat  "DENIED" option in several personality flavors.  But this isn't on topic so I'll knock off on this.

[shepskisaac]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yup I'm against unwanted advanceds across the board. Tali and Kaidan coming onto my dude Shep disturbs him in equal measure. DO NOT WANT.

Agree. Characters with unwanted goal to kill me disturbs my Shep as well. DO NOT WANT. BioWare needs to remove it.

Seriously, I'm for realism. It's realistic some characters will come onto you, some will remain shy, some will have a reason not to come onto you etc. It's part of a character.

[Isaidlunch]

DrNavi wrote...

as long as shepard makes the first move, didn't like how everyone hit on you in DA2, Mass Effect 2 did it perfectly where you pretty much initiated everything

Erm let's see:

Tali - Awkward conversation where she talks about how she'd be willing to do something with you that's considered intimate in her culture. If you press her on it she says how she's fallen for the "dashing commander".

Miranda - Flirts with you if choose a certain paragon line.

Jack - Asks you if you want sexy times.

Modifié par Kazanth, 06 juillet 2011 - 12:54 .

[Ryzaki]

IsaacShep wrote...
Agree. Characters with unwanted goal to kill me disturbs my Shep as well. DO NOT WANT. BioWare needs to remove it. 

Seriously, I'm for realism. It's realistic some characters will come onto you, some will remain shy, some will have a reason not to come onto you etc. It's part of a character.

 

 

If we require realism in the romances alot more have to change than just them choosing to come on to you.

makenzieshepard wrote...
And that's fair.  Personally I'm not against unwanted advances as long as they are in character and there is a big fat  "DENIED" option in several personality flavors.  But this isn't on topic so I'll knock off on this.

 


LOL. If I could turn Tali down cruely I wouldn't be so agitated. I'd be onboard unwanted advances as long as my Shep can hilariously overreact. 

Shep: "No Tali...just...no. No way. You have chicken feet. And with that bucket on your head for all I know you look like the predator. Just...no." (Shep walks away). Or even better. SHEPARD PAWNCH! 

Shep: "Look Alenko I don't swing that way." 

Kaidan: "Okay Commander." 

Shep: "I SAID I DON'T SWING THAT WAY!" 
Kaidan: Okay... 
Shep: "DON'T YOU LOOK AT MY ASS WHEN I'M WALKING AWAY EITHER!" *storms off* 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 juillet 2011 - 01:15 .

[DrNavi]

makenzieshepard wrote...

DrNavi wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

DrNavi wrote...
he just never struck me as being into guys, mentioning Rana and women a few time, also I do know what bisexual is (figured you would have guessed when I mentioned i did the gay options in dragon age)

hmm.....I guess if they made him bi it could work.....maybe

If you save him on Virmire and then meet at Horizon, it's kinda obvious he's into ManShep, even though he doesn't say it openly. He wouldn't say anything excplictly by himself anyway, even in ME1 since Kaidan thinks Shep is straight. It's already part of the story. He admits to FemShep that he didn't realize she wasn't straight (triangle scene with FemShep/Kaidan/Liara) and he also makes it clear he wouldn't bother flirting/pursuing FemShep in the first place had he knew that. He assumes the same thing about ManShep. But with the obvious gender difference, it's only FemShep that he thinks he has a chance with since straight women likes men, so he doesn't hold back from flirting with her. Straight ManShep (in his assumption) doesn't like men, so no flirting/hitting on. It'll be Shepard that will have to make the first move and let Kaidan know he ain't straight before Kaidan makes any move himself.

as long as shepard makes the first move, didn't like how everyone hit on you in DA2, Mass Effect 2 did it perfectly where you pretty much initiated everything

This did not happen.  And repeating it won't make it true.  I guess your talking about Anders right?  Because he is the only one that flirts with you without you initiating it.  And then ONLY if you choose all the upper left/nice options.  He does this because it is in character and needy. It has nothing to do with the characters sexuality and everything to do with personality.  My femshep had to put up with unwanted advances in ME1 and ME2 from NPC's and I dealt with it.  I suggest you do the same.  If you must agitated against unwanted advances then apply it equally not just against gay/bisexuals or I will question your true motives.

ok i'll apply it equelly....I hated kaiden taking every nice thing I said as flirting in ME1, ME2 it is much easier to avoid than other bioware games, that was my point

[ArawnNox]

DrNavi wrote...

ok i'll apply it equelly....I hated kaiden taking every nice thing I said as flirting in ME1, ME2 it is much easier to avoid than other bioware games, that was my point

Kaiden asks you, several times, if he's reading too much into things. Blame yourself for not listening.

[shepskisaac]

ArawnNox wrote...
Kaiden asks you, several times, if he's reading too much into things. Blame yourself for not listening.

Not to mention just a one single 'no' shuts any flirting from him forever and he even apologizes lol.