25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Rinji the Bearded]

Errol Dnamyx wrote...

I'm just saying, that people might be led to believe, that the ME series has 9 heterosexual romance options, when in reality, half of those are human / alien. (and no, a human male + alien female does not make a heterosexual pairing)

But I guess you have to sell your point somehow.

Your point would hold more water if the aliens were available for both Shepards.  It's xenophilia but also heterosexual.

[Siansonea]

Errol Dnamyx wrote...

I believe the term only applies, when both partners are from the same species.

Yeah, it's probably technically "xenoheterosexual" or somesuch thing. The point is that in the eyes of the player, it's perceived as heterosexual, even though getting it on with an alien is many orders of magnitude more bizarre than any combo of humans having the sexytimes, at least it would be in "reality". I personally am an "eww aliens" type of person (except for asari), but I don't begrudge the folks who like aliens their romances. It would be nice if there were "same-sex" or "xenohomosexual" options for those folks, many of them are my dear friends. 

[Rinji the Bearded]

Considering how many "NO ****** BRO" comments I've seen about Garrus, I would definitely count the romances in ME2 as being heterosexual.

[Siansonea]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Without arguing semantics, it's clear that Bioware intended the Shepard/alien romances to be heterosexual ones (even if the gender distinction is artificially imposed) and players certainly perceived them as heterosexual or male/female. Whether or not they were actually 'male', or 'female' is irrelevant, they were offered as such to players, who generally accepted this definition.

I don't think many males who romanced Liara or Tali, or females who romanced Garrus or Thane, would be arguing that these were not heterosexual, regardless of whether we deign to call the aliens by human genders.

Just like we're perceiving Liara/FemShep as same-sex even though Bioware resolutely insists that Liara is actually some kind of asexual, genderless blob. With bewbs and a female voice.

Yeah, that asari Marketing Doublespeak was FAIL from the word go. "Female" just means "produces egg cells", and "male" just means "produces sperm cells". As we've seen from the flora and fauna of our own planet, there are many different forms those two sexes can take. And since in order to reproduce sexually, all species need a female type, and since asari reproduce sexually (they don't split in half and regenerate to form two new individuals, they have babies) we know for a fact that they're female. I've had many a chortle, many a guffaw, at the lengths people have gone to in order to somehow "prove" that asari aren't female. And then there's the Codex, which pretty much forestalls the argument before it even starts. 

[KillTheLastRomantic]

I'm sure at one point on the old forums on the discussion of same-sex pairing one of the developers came on and said that the Liara/femshep relationship was, of course, lesbian and was designed as such. I'm not sure at what point their stances changed on that =/

[Tric]

Truth be told the worst part, for me at least, was marketing attempting to use the whole monogendered detail as meaning something completely different than what they imply with it.
The word "monogendered" is formed with mono, meaning one, and gender, that has to do with biological characteristics, taking in the information in the codex, the visual appearance of asari and the fact that they can reproduce and give birth implies that all asari are of the female gender.
The terms of "woman" or "man" may not exist in their society due to this but that doesn't change the fact that they are a race of only females.

Modifié par SomethingSome, 06 juillet 2011 - 02:52 .

[AngelicMachinery]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Considering how many "NO ****** BRO" comments I've seen about Garrus, I would definitely count the romances in ME2 as being heterosexual.

I personally think some people should revaluate their obsession with Garrus.  It's almost like they don't want to risk being seduced by the guy or something.

[Rinji the Bearded]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I personally think some people should revaluate their obsession with Garrus.  It's almost like they don't want to risk being seduced by the guy or something.

They've already been seduced, they just don't know it yet.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

SomethingSome wrote...

Truth be told the worst part, for me at least, was marketing attempting to use the whole monogendered detail as meaning something completely different than what they imply with it.
The word "monogendered" is formed with mono, meaning one, and gender, that has to do with biological characteristics, taking in the information in the codex, the visual appearance of asari and the fact that they can reproduce and give birth implies that all asari are of the female gender.
The terms of "woman" or "man" may not exist in their society due to this but that doesn't change the fact that they are a race of only females.

Really, they don't have nearly as fun with the Asari and gender as they should. Or aliens and gender in general. Why would something that evolved on a completely different planet have biological traits that correspond to our concept of "male" and "female?"

[ElitePinecone]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
Why would something that evolved on a completely different planet have biological traits that correspond to our concept of "male" and "female?"

It breaks realism, certainly, but making them *too* alien would reduce the appeal of romances, not to mention everyday conversarion (it's the non-humanoid aliens, the hanar, volus and elcor, that are shafted in terms of game characters and squadmates). 

Not to mention, even if the biological divide did exist, giving them mannerisms and gender roles close to human norms is fairly unbelievable. 

Many players might find a sufficiently alien squadmate threatening, even frightening, not to mention unappealing for romance. 

It's pretty much the sci-fi conundrum, anything too unfamiliar and we begin to react badly to it. Humanoid, and with human characteristics (voice, face, etc) is something we can relate to. 

[hwf]

Zevran was an interesting character for me, as a "straight male gamer".
It gave me some interesting insight on how the "straight female gamer" would perceive or react to a character like Liara (for humans Asari appear all-female, no nuance possible in my opinion).

It'd say a bisexual character definately adds some spice to the game if done like Zevran; somewhat subtle, persuant, suggestive.
It also creates an excellent opportunity for some gamers to deal with their fear of... well, you know.

[upsettingshorts]

RinjiRenee wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I personally think some people should revaluate their obsession with Garrus.  It's almost like they don't want to risk being seduced by the guy or something.

They've already been seduced, they just don't know it yet.

Rayin Shepard would need to re-calibrate his sexuality for anything like that to happen.

Not that there's anything wrong with that ™.

[Siansonea]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

SomethingSome wrote...

Truth be told the worst part, for me at least, was marketing attempting to use the whole monogendered detail as meaning something completely different than what they imply with it.
The word "monogendered" is formed with mono, meaning one, and gender, that has to do with biological characteristics, taking in the information in the codex, the visual appearance of asari and the fact that they can reproduce and give birth implies that all asari are of the female gender.
The terms of "woman" or "man" may not exist in their society due to this but that doesn't change the fact that they are a race of only females.

Really, they don't have nearly as fun with the Asari and gender as they should. Or aliens and gender in general. Why would something that evolved on a completely different planet have biological traits that correspond to our concept of "male" and "female?"

Yup. Who says turians and quarians have naughty bits that even remotely resemble humans'? And do drell lay eggs? Does the male carry the baby to term in any of these species?

[AngelicMachinery]

hwf wrote...

Zevran was an interesting character for me, as a "straight male gamer".
It gave me some interesting insight on how the "straight female gamer" would perceive or react to a character like Liara (for humans Asari appear all-female, no nuance possible in my opinion).

It'd say a bisexual character definately adds some spice to the game if done like Zevran; somewhat subtle, persuant, suggestive.
It also creates an excellent opportunity for some gamers to deal with their fear of... well, you know.

Unfortunatly,  Zevran doesn't seem to be one of the much loved characters in the community.  It seems people were to busy pining after Alistair and didn't realize how "Ridiciously Awesome" and gorgeous Zevran was.  Admittedly though,  I would prefer that promiscuity wasn't a common factor in all Bi love interests.

[hwf]

It seems people were to busy pining after Alistair and didn't realize how "Ridiciously Awesome" and gorgeous Zevran was.  Admittedly though,  I would prefer that promiscuity wasn't a common factor in all Bi love interests.

Alistair might have been scientifically designed to appeal to the straight female gamer!

I didn't mean to imply promiscuity; it's just that that particular trait of Zhevran forces you to "deal with it" as a player. Which was an interesting experience, at least for me.
Having every character's bisexual LI path open up when you as a player push towards that feels synthetic to me.

It needs to be in the character itself, not some artificial option, which allows it.
Might require too much dialogue depth for a game like Mass Effect though.

[upsettingshorts]

Liara is promiscuous?

What about Sky?  Silk Fox?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 06 juillet 2011 - 03:45 .

[KawaiiKatie]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Really, they don't have nearly as fun with the Asari and gender as they should. Or aliens and gender in general. Why would something that evolved on a completely different planet have biological traits that correspond to our concept of "male" and "female?"

Liara's blanket "We Asari don't recognize gender" statement always bothered me. The Asari have had contact with other sapient races who do have a concept of gender for thousands of years, and not every Asari everywhere could have possibly been raised with traditional "gender blind" Asari values. Somewhere in the universe, there has to be genderqueer Asari. And I refuse to believe that all Asari are attracted to every gender and every race simply because they can reproduce with anything--Asari sexual preference must be wide and varied. And yet Bioware never touches on any of that, because I guess it would destroy the "point" of their hyper-idealized race of blue space lesbians.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Rayin Shepard would need to re-calibrate his sexuality for anything like that to happen.

Not that there's anything wrong with that ™.

Logan Shepard isn't attracted to Garrus because the turians have what is called "frog butt," which is to say, no butt at all.

[Maugrim]

I'm puzzled by the implications as to that a relationship can't be xenophilic and ******/bi/hetero, there is nothing in the defintion of the words that rules out the other. Hell we may find out that nope the male/female paradigm is exactly how it work on thousands of other worlds. Or maybe we are alone in the universe....either way the realism arguments amount to a big fat we don't know yet.

On the other hand we have the species we can romance constantly referring to themselves in gendered terms. Even the asari are still female despite one screwup from Casey. They aren't exactly females as we are used to but they are female. And if you romance her with a femshep that's gay. Deal with it.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 06 juillet 2011 - 03:46 .

[upsettingshorts]

I thought she said gender had "no meaning for them." Which would make sense, because they're an all-female species. They would have no internal concept of what makes a "masculine" or "feminine" Asari because neither concept exists for them.

That some would have a preference for males (or say, Male Turians) or females (say, Female Humans) - even when it came to a single Asari - isn't beyond reason. An individual person can have preferences. I don't think Liara was trying to convey anything wildly different.

And FemShep/Liara is gay for FemShep.  There's no such thing as gay for Liara. But "gay for FemShep" is the only point of view that really matters in that sense.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 06 juillet 2011 - 03:53 .

[AngelicMachinery]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Liara is promiscuous?

What about Sky?  Silk Fox?

It was the "Done live Zevran" I was referring to.  Which I probably misinterpeted.

[AngelicMachinery]

hwf wrote...

It seems people were to busy pining after Alistair and didn't realize how "Ridiciously Awesome" and gorgeous Zevran was.  Admittedly though,  I would prefer that promiscuity wasn't a common factor in all Bi love interests.

Alistair might have been scientifically designed to appeal to the straight female gamer!

I didn't mean to imply promiscuity; it's just that that particular trait of Zhevran forces you to "deal with it" as a player. Which was an interesting experience, at least for me.
Having every character's bisexual LI path open up when you as a player push towards that feels synthetic to me.

It needs to be in the character itself, not some artificial option, which allows it.
Might require too much dialogue depth for a game like Mass Effect though.

We’ve already been told/assured that the entire cast isn’t going to suddenly go bissexual.  I personally wouldn’t have minded either way,  more options is always good but it’s not necessary.   So you won’t have to worry about it feeling to “synthetic, contrived,  or reality shattering.”  At most you’ll probably have one or two characters as bisexual.  Their sexuality probably won’t be a core to there personality like it was Zevran,  and instead it will just be a passing trait which isn’t bad.  Not everyone is defined by sexual desires.

[KawaiiKatie]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I thought she said gender had "no meaning for them." Which would make sense, because they're an all-female species. They would have no internal concept of what makes a "masculine" or "feminine" Asari because neither concept exists for them.

Gender can have "no meaning" for Liara, or most Asari who were raised in Asari space with traditional Asari values. But the Asari have spread to many places across the galaxy, and have been in contact with other sapient, gender-recognizing races for thousands of years. It's just not possible that every Asari would just take her own (lack of) gender for granted. There just has to be a not-insignificent percentage of Asari who do recognize gender (both of themselves and others) and find meaning in it, if only because they were raised in a society that recognizes them as female. For example, as Asari who grew up on Earth surrounded by Earth media and human gender-tropes would have a much different view on gender than Liara, who was raised in Asari space and had little contact with other species.

But no, Liara treats herself as the spokeswoman for all Asari everywhere.

Back to the original point, Bioware does not have as much fun with the Asari gender as they should. I, for one, would be fascinated with a genderqueer Asari, but I doubt that Bioware's future Asari plans detail anything more than "hot and obstinately bisexual."

[upsettingshorts]

She was making a general point about Asari culture and to an extent, Asari history. I don't think she would need to account for outliers - especially given that the potential examples you mention are by their nature entirely hypothetical, even if significant numbers of said Asari you mention exist, there's no reason to expect Liara herself knows about them - and considering Shepard's general ignorance at that moment. He asks, she does her best to answer - in that sense she is temporarily the spokeswoman for Asari everywhere because Shepard makes her one with his questioning.

Also in the metagame sense she is, because... she's the Asari companion. Kinda like Tali for the Quarians, Wrex for the Krogans, and Garrus for the Turians.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 06 juillet 2011 - 04:06 .

[Siansonea]

The only instance where "homosexual" makes sense from the standpoint of an asari is if she prefers other asari as sex partners. Since that's the only species/gender that is the same as her. Preferring aliens of either gender makes the asari xenophilic, not "heterosexual", since that term would only have meaning if asari were a two-gendered species.

And frankly, it disturbs me that the "pureblood" bias among asari so strongly corresponds to bias against human homosexuality. Can't have the hawt alien babes preferring to sleep with each other, now can we?

Modifié par Siansonea II, 06 juillet 2011 - 04:34 .