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♂♂ • ♀♀ For The Love — The Same-Sex Romance Discussion Thread **may contain spoilers**


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#4201
Ryzaki

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As long as the them being bi regardless doesn't mean they hit on Shepard regardless. 

Would be nice say if Kaidan was an option that doctor turned out to be male. That way you know he's bi but he doesn't have to hit on Shepard for it to be known (and he'll go out with said doctor even if not romanced. Either way it's just a date). So there's a bi character who will be known as such throughtout all playthroughs but without the hitting on Shep factor . 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 juillet 2011 - 03:46 .


#4202
shepskisaac

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Ryzaki wrote...
Would be nice say if Kaidan was an option that doctor turned out to be male.

Finally something I can agree with you on. Even though people assume it was Dr. Michel, I would prefer if BW took the oppurtunity they've created by not referring to the said doctor with any details (not even gender!) and use it on Kaidan's bi-side. And even if they don't make the doctor be a guy, I don't want it to be Dr. Michel. Not only she was clearly after Garrus so why exactly would she go out with Kaidan, but having it be her is just an uber cliche. Millions of inhabitants on the Citadel and surely more than 1 doctor and it just happens to be her? Stuff like that makes RPGs feel like they take place in a little village where everyone knows everyone. The illusion of a big world gets broken when you notice that it's nothing more than re-use of existing NPCs/characters.

Jademoon121 wrote...
Don't forget Fallout New Vegas either. I've made many a courier, not a straight one among them. I really love on how Fallout handles their GLBT characters.

Ahhyes, forgot to list it after I put down other Fallout. And Obsidian's writing is impeccable. They're my favourite storytellers without a doubt. If they only could get bought by a big publisher with cash that would secure them time and money to polish their games :( Though Dungeon Siege 3 is very polished, let's hope it's a beginning of a new bug-free era for Obs.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 11 juillet 2011 - 04:07 .


#4203
Quething

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Ryzaki wrote...

As long as the them being bi regardless doesn't mean they hit on Shepard regardless. 

Would be nice say if Kaidan was an option that doctor turned out to be male. That way you know he's bi but he doesn't have to hit on Shepard for it to be known (and he'll go out with said doctor even if not romanced. Either way it's just a date). So there's a bi character who will be known as such throughtout all playthroughs but without the hitting on Shep factor . 


I think this might be the one place where I'm okay with "NPC behavior is dependent on PC behavior" as a concept - if Shep hits on the queer NPC, the NPC can be like "I've been waiting to hear that for three years," or whatever romantic awesomeness BioWare feels like, but if Shep says "yes I dig the dudes, but I'm not into you," Kaidan/Joker/Garrus/whoever should be like, "oh good. Because don't get me wrong, Shep, I like you, but I prefer my boyfriends to be less crazy/less dangerous/more turian/whatever."

I mean, it certainly hasn't done Liara any favors with the fanbase that she's in love with Shep regardless of how Shep feels about her.

Modifié par Quething, 11 juillet 2011 - 04:12 .


#4204
Ryzaki

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Quething wrote...
I think this might be the one place where I'm okay with "NPC behavior is dependent on PC behavior" as a concept - if Shep hits on the queer NPC, the NPC can be like "I've been waiting to hear that for three years," or whatever romantic awesomeness BioWare feels like, but if Shep says "yes I dig the dudes, but I'm not into you," Kaidan/Joker/Garrus/whoever should be like, "oh good. Because don't get me wrong, Shep, I like you, but I prefer my boyfriends to be less crazy/less dangerous/more turian/whatever."

I mean, it certainly hasn't done Liara any favors with the fanbase that she's in love with Shep regardless of how Shep feels about her.

 

That would be sweet! I wouldn't have to feel like they were pining after my Shep (would like if they also said that if Shep started romancing someone else). 

It really really didn't. 

#4205
Nashiktal

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Agreed with reactice NPC's.

It kind of makes me feel like a hypocrite, but I don't want the burden of having my squadmates pine after me when i'm trying to save the universe, but at the same time I pine after a squadmate during the game.

I'll romance ya when i'm good and ready dammit!

#4206
Augoeides

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I'm a Kaidan lover and would like to see him as a romance, but I do kind of like the look of James Vega at least (no idea about personality yet) so I think I'd be happy hitting that. Shepard gets enough meaningless (sometimes implied) sex from women as it is s don't judge me. xDDD

#4207
ElitePinecone

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I'm also a fan of the reactive sexuality bit, if only because it means one character can have two or three different facets depending on player choices.

It's the same backstory (just like how Anders is always bisexual but only reveals his relationship with Karl to a male Hawke), but the dialogue players choose affects which part of it we hear.

Does Kaidan mention Rahna to both genders of Shep? I distinctly remember that he didn't mention her by name to a modded mShep romance, and seemed to indicate that she was just a random classmate he saved from Vyrnus out of kindness rather than love.

If the dialogue is different, that's the sort of thing I'd love to see in ME3. The backstory remains the same but the parts of it we hear differ depending on our choices, leaving us to make our own interpretations.

#4208
Abispa

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Gamestop is a wonderful place to find teen-to-twenty-something-year-old boys who know ALL about "realistic" gay behavior and how it should be applied to Mass Effect 3. As in not at all. Except HAWT lesbians. That's cool.

One proposed scenario a "delightful" baby Chris Rock wannabe "knew" that EA is "just gonna have to" put into ME3 because it's been taken over by gay people (who are apparently everywhere now) is making spacer Shepard's mom gay (we never hear about his/her dad, after all). That would make gay people happy and TOTALLY ruin normal people's immersion and make ME3 the worst game in history.

Apparently middle-aged or elderly lesbians aren't a good thing.

I was going to bring this up last night, but I figured I should wait till I got a cooler head.

I've decided that I REALLY want a bisexual Garrus and mama Shepard now.

Modifié par Abispa, 11 juillet 2011 - 10:41 .


#4209
Augoeides

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I'm really trying to connect those points concerning Shepard's mom but I keep falling into a gaping chasm called logic. These kids are our future? God help us all I'm calling the Reapers for early harvesting, there's just no point in going on.

Quite frankly I think Kaidan should be, if romanceable by MShep be very distinctly Bisexual, with a clear higher inclination towards women. Honestly, due to the cut content, due to what remained in-game his interest in women in the released Mass Effect is clearly established, now while that obviously doesn't bar him from being Bisexual I still think it puts a lot of weight on an even attraction percentile when it comes to genders. Throw in some conservatism from the space marines, awkward presumptions and misinterpretations of Shepard's sexuality and you have a situation where Kaidan probably if he held any fleeting interest would not pursue anything unless Shepard gave him the green light.

Now I know some people will read this as a typical sexual angst story we all love to hate (because who doesn't hate a fictional retelling of a common story of the world we live in?) but it just seems more plausible to me, and let's face it, Kaidan is a man with a lot of discipline and self-control (and not just in the keeping himself in check, I mean it seems he actively holds himself back, I mean did with his Biotics for a while because of events in his past) so I wouldn't be surprised if a Bisexual angst story was right up his alley (pun definitely intended) especially if it brought about Kaidan losing some of that control due to the situation at hand (Reapers) and just the stress of pursuing a side of his life he's never really engaged before.

How does this all come about you say? With a distinct foil to his secretive Bisexual angst with an openly Gay, or more likely bisexual, because I find it very unlikely the Bioware team would do an Gay male, (female maybe, they've touched it before if I recall; Juhani?) but I digress...

So they have the foil character another companion, let's say... the new boy James Vega, who is openly Gay/Bi but not in that atrociously obnoxious and flamboyant way and whose openness (not in your face) about it when talking to Shep in some hypothetical getting to know you situation where Kaidan is present or hears about (running through the streets of earth in the reaper invasion, stumbling through a destroyed gay bar maybe? slightly contrived but it's just an idea) leads to Kaidan learning that Shepard is okay or not okay with gay as friends or relationships NOTE: I'm just using Gay here because it's easier but you all know I mean gay/bi, for likeliness' sake.

That's:
Okay with Gay Friends
or Okay with Gay Relationships (involving himself)
Or Not okay with Gay Relationships (involving himself) but okay with Gay Friends
or not okay with gay period.

This openness from Vega and revelation about Shepard's attitude maybe inspires Kaidan to become more open to the idea and perhaps begin to perceive some of Shepard's attitudes, movements and words towards him as flirts. Or if just friends, Vega could take on the role of mentor of sorts to Kaidan, so the newbie has something to teach the oh so experienced crew of the Normandy, even if it's just rambling. I'm not saying Vega and Alenko should hook up if Shepard doesn't pursue either, I'm talking just a good ol fashioned close friendship where they learn from each other, and they just happen to be Bi and Gay/Bi and one of the topics that's important is sexuality. Not trying to squeeze a message in there though.

Anyway, I'm rambling but that's my idea of how Kaidan and James could possibly be implemented in a dynamic scenario. :3

#4210
Game_Fan_85

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I've been reading over the last 15 or so pages since I made a post in here and I have to say, I am glad to see so much Garrus love! I thought I was a bit weird for thinking Garrus was a hot and wishing Shepard would speak of some "other" topics to him during their many convos in ME2. Also ME1 when I replayed it. It's kind of the reaction I had after playing DA:O for the first time and discovering "OK, the gays love Alistair, it is not just me"

I don't remember much about when my Kaidan died, but I wish I'd have realised that the 2 decisions at that point meant that he OR Ashley died. I couldn't stand Ashley, even though my Shepard ended up with her. I was just curious to see how the whole "romance" thing played out because I have never played a (non-Japanese) game with that sort of content before. Besides, I thought it was established that only the alien-lesbian-loving geeks/15 year olds were being catered to in Mass Effect and that they would not have Male romances. It never even entered my mind that it would happen in OTHER games like DA:O! That shocked me frankly. My Shepard ended up with Jack in the second game, I really liked how it played. Then again, I am a sucker for the sad/tortured/can only be healed by love type. Could be why I love Anders (and of course, that gorgeous Alistair, for different reasons) so much.

During my as yet unfinished second playthrough of ME1 (started in May), Shepard was a total arse to Ashley, the memories of her in ME2 were still strong :P I am also making sure Kaidan does not die this time. I really liked Kaidan's character, I still think he would have been perfect for M-Shepard in the first game. I am looking forward to re-playing ME2 again with my new save, I guess I'll have to use the second save for ME3 so Kaidan can return.

Thank you again BioWare, you guys are awesome. I wish I had discovered that prior to 2009. I'm making up for it now though.

#4211
ElitePinecone

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Abispa wrote...

snip


At least the speculation is wildly delusional :lol:

People can think what they want, all the doomsaying and pontifications of despair in the world will be irrelevant when the actual content is revealed. 

#4212
Game_Fan_85

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Augoeides wrote...

How does this all come about you say? With a distinct foil to his secretive Bisexual angst with an openly Gay, or more likely bisexual, because I find it very unlikely the Bioware team would do an Gay male, (female maybe, they've touched it before if I recall; Juhani?) but I digress...


Hang on, you mean the characer from KotOR?  I clearly remeber a story on joystiq where someone asked about s/s romance options in The Old Republic, and the reply from BW was that according to Lucasarts, "there are no gay characters in Star Wars" 

Oh waiiiit, I get it, they meant no MALE gay characters, of couuuuurse! :D

I wonder why the US has such a thing against Male gays in Sci-Fi?  This is the country that wanted to turn Captain Jack Harkness STRAIGHT afterall!

#4213
bleetman

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Abispa wrote...

EA is "just gonna have to" put into ME3 because it's been taken over by gay people


As if we didn't have better things to do

#4214
KillTheLastRomantic

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bleetman wrote...

Abispa wrote...

EA is "just gonna have to" put into ME3 because it's been taken over by gay people


As if we didn't have better things to do


I don't. In fact I'm conspiring to take over McDonalds with a legion of gay people right now.

#4215
ladyofpayne

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Who was kaidan first? He tell somwhow about his friends?

#4216
Dhiro

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Ryzaki wrote...

-snip-
I like the rerendering, He doesn't look so fugly. The original is on the left the retweaking on the right.  


Uh. I actualy liked the original better than the retweaking.

#4217
Rinji the Bearded

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I pretty much refuse to look at any edits or tweaking of Vega, except to show how the proportions of his face are off. Waiting for BW to give some updated look for him.

#4218
ElitePinecone

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RinjiRenee wrote...

I pretty much refuse to look at any edits or tweaking of Vega, except to show how the proportions of his face are off. Waiting for BW to give some updated look for him.


I'm guessing they're going for a Gears-esque deliberately exaggerated soldier look? 

But yes. it does look like the proportions are all wrong. It looks... squished, or something. 

#4219
Dhiro

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I would be happy is Vega looked a little more like Big Ben.

#4220
Jimmy Fury

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Game_Fan_85 wrote...
I wonder why the US has such a thing against Male gays in Sci-Fi?  This is the country that wanted to turn Captain Jack Harkness STRAIGHT afterall!

It's not just sci-fi. Nor is it just the US.
And in our defense, as I recall the only mention of turning Jack straight was Barrowman saying he hopes it doesn't happen and bloggers worrying that it would. There was never any actual plan to do so from anyone involved in the new series.

#4221
Game_Fan_85

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Jimmy Fury wrote...

Game_Fan_85 wrote...
I wonder why the US has such a thing against Male gays in Sci-Fi?  This is the country that wanted to turn Captain Jack Harkness STRAIGHT afterall!

It's not just sci-fi. Nor is it just the US.
And in our defense, as I recall the only mention of turning Jack straight was Barrowman saying he hopes it doesn't happen and bloggers worrying that it would. There was never any actual plan to do so from anyone involved in the new series.


Heh, of course it's not just the US, there just seems to a real anit-gay thing with Sci-Fi.

I read that FOX were involved with the US Torchwood at first and they planned to make him straight, but Barrowman wouldn't do it.  It may have been a load of crap, I dunno.  I haven't seen the US verion of Shameless yet, but I am wondering if characters were changed in that too.  Skins US was changed, removing the gay character Max and putting in a lesbian girl instead.

#4222
AngelicMachinery

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Game_Fan_85 wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Game_Fan_85 wrote...
I wonder why the US has such a thing against Male gays in Sci-Fi?  This is the country that wanted to turn Captain Jack Harkness STRAIGHT afterall!

It's not just sci-fi. Nor is it just the US.
And in our defense, as I recall the only mention of turning Jack straight was Barrowman saying he hopes it doesn't happen and bloggers worrying that it would. There was never any actual plan to do so from anyone involved in the new series.


Heh, of course it's not just the US, there just seems to a real anit-gay thing with Sci-Fi.

I read that FOX were involved with the US Torchwood at first and they planned to make him straight, but Barrowman wouldn't do it.  It may have been a load of crap, I dunno.  I haven't seen the US verion of Shameless yet, but I am wondering if characters were changed in that too.  Skins US was changed, removing the gay character Max and putting in a lesbian girl instead.


It seems that fox lost the contract for it anyway,  perhaps, it is because they wanted to remove Captian Jack's (<3) omnisexuality. Also,  I just discovered the first episode of the show was shown on stars on the eighth in america and will be shown on the 14th on the BBC.  I'll have to find the first episode somewhere.

#4223
KawaiiKatie

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Hey now, hey now, what about Gaeta and Hoshi from the re-imagined Battlestar Galactica? I mean, they were kind of an Easter Egg and 99.9% of their relationship existed off-screen and nobody ever talked about it ever, but they were totally canon! And not to mention, major characters on an American sci-fi TV show! (And shut up, don't even tell me that Hoshi wasn't a major character, he took over as Admiral when Adama couldn't and was totally there in the last minutes of the show.)

Um, so, what were we talking about...?

Oh yeah, Bioware is Canadian, so they shouldn't have to follow America's stuffy ol' rules about homosexuality anyway! Bring on the man-lovin' in ME3!

#4224
Trevbo

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Augoeides wrote...


Quite frankly I think Kaidan should be, if romanceable by MShep be very distinctly Bisexual, with a clear higher inclination towards women. Honestly, due to the cut content, due to what remained in-game his interest in women in the released Mass Effect is clearly established, now while that obviously doesn't bar him from being Bisexual I still think it puts a lot of weight on an even attraction percentile when it comes to genders. Throw in some conservatism from the space marines, awkward presumptions and misinterpretations of Shepard's sexuality and you have a situation where Kaidan probably if he held any fleeting interest would not pursue anything unless Shepard gave him the green light.

Now I know some people will read this as a typical sexual angst story we all love to hate (because who doesn't hate a fictional retelling of a common story of the world we live in?) but it just seems more plausible to me, and let's face it, Kaidan is a man with a lot of discipline and self-control (and not just in the keeping himself in check, I mean it seems he actively holds himself back, I mean did with his Biotics for a while because of events in his past) so I wouldn't be surprised if a Bisexual angst story was right up his alley (pun definitely intended) especially if it brought about Kaidan losing some of that control due to the situation at hand (Reapers) and just the stress of pursuing a side of his life he's never really engaged before.



From my recent playthrough of ME1, when I was pining for Kaidan, I got the impression that Kaidan is not very direct about what relationship he and Rana had. He never says he loved her. He does say he was close to her. And even if he had a relationship with her, he was a kid then. 

I dated a girl in high school, for 6 months. We broke up, and got back together, and dated for another 6 months. 
But I was still figuring out who I was. I am gay. Not Bi. And definitely not bi, with a stronger inclination towards women.

I'm not trying to stay everything you said has to be wrong. Just that it will be kind of sad if Bioware holds themselves back in developing Kaidan because they feel bound by a pretty vague mention of a girl from Kaidan's past.

#4225
Ryzaki

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Dhiro wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

-snip-
I like the rerendering, He doesn't look so fugly. The original is on the left the retweaking on the right.  


Uh. I actualy liked the original better than the retweaking.

 

Well opinions and preferences. 

By god I hope they fix him. He looks DERP.