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[78stonewobble]

diskoh wrote...

For months upon months I've had a lot of trouble wrapping my head around why it upsets some people if a previously unromancable character becomes a same sex option. I've heard all of the reasons, and all of them have an obvious answer to me and don't make sense. I guess it's just an emotional or intangible thing to people.

You could make the same argument against people wanting same sex romances in the first place.

It's different emotions, intangible, subjective, tastes or whatever we call it.

Still gonna buy the game though... And in reality it probably adds more to your immersion in the game than it detracts from mine. So it's more than fair in a way.

BUT: It's still my genuine oppinion that sexual preference is part of the character. If my character is gay I can't have the straight one. Adds a bit of realism imho and just seems to fit my view of the world better.

In any case your oppinion is just as valid for you as mine is for me.  (allthough I am offcourse allways correct in everything *lol* )

PS. Very glad that it's allowed to discuss this. Awesome bioware... You have guts.


Oh and kinda on the subject of implementation. I miss the option of getting npc's to open up about their background in a friendly way. All the LI persons takes that as romancing which I find pretty silly.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 14 juin 2011 - 08:22 .

[KawaiiKatie]

Comsky159 wrote...

diskoh wrote...

For months upon months I've had a lot of trouble wrapping my head around why it upsets some people if a previously unromancable character becomes a same sex option. I've heard all of the reasons, and all of them have an obvious answer to me and don't make sense. I guess it's just an emotional or intangible thing to people.

It's a matter of literary integrity. Changing sexuality of characters (particularly those we've known for a while) says that blatant fetishism is more important than the ME universe. It's been discussed a number of times and it's impossible to argue effectively about it without prominant literary theory on videogames.

I know that the OP didn't want discussion about continuity but I think it is the major issue with S/S romance at the moment and gravitation towards the topic in threads like this is quite evolutionary.

I believe that characters and sexualities can evolve, grow, and change throughout the course of a story, especially one as long as Mass Effect. Think of Willow from Buffy the Vampire Slayer--did her sexuality not grow and evolve with her character throughout the course of the story? Did you not know and love Willow for so very long as the shy, "straight" little bookworm with her quiet little crushes? Did you not learn to love her as the bold, confident lesbian unashamed of her sexuality?

I have faith that if the Bioware writers choose to show us a new side of old characters, they will do so with great care and consideration to the integrity of the established canon.

[Criz]

I wouldn't treat these tweets like the ultimate source of truth from now till all eternity
first it was like there will be no new LIs in ME3, then there was the news that there will be bi romances (coupled with the previous statement that meant people assumed some previous LIs are available for both Sheps), then it was more towards bi yes, but new LIs ... etcetc.

[diskoh]

And on the subject of love interests, I would really be happy with anything, I'm just incredibly excited and grateful that they've decided to include it. Literally any of the past or present squadmates would be good with me, because I love (almost) all of them as characters.

That said, I do have my favorites. My picks would be:

For femShep, Miranda. I know that's probably the least popular pick among femShep same-sex supporters, but I think it would be a lovely story. If you read the personal info about her in the Shadow Broker's base, it paints a very sorrowful picture of her. She's lonely but reluctant and hesitant, she's obviously looking for something/someone but nobody seems to be what she is looking for. Obviously if you're a male Shepard he ends up being exactly what she's looking for. But what about if you're femShep? Is Miranda destined to be alone and infertile and depressed? Maybe the reason her extranet logs have her rejecting potential suitors at the slightest whim isn't entirely because of high standards, maybe she does it because what she truly wants is femShep.

I have less to say about male Shepard just because I play him much less. My choice for him would be Kaidan or Thane, and ultimately I would pick Kaidan simply because he's human. They go back the farthest out of any squadmate, but they share a much deeper and more intense relationship than the "bro" that Garrus is.

[AlexMBrennan]

Re attack against people not buying the game if it includes/doesn't include same sex romance: IT'S MY MONEY. There's no default requirement to spend it on BW products unless they really, really suck. Is that so difficult to get?

And for all those who think Garrus should not be same-sex romance - if you spent a minute talking to him you would have noticed that turians look nothing like humans (in particular, female humans look nothing like female turians). At best I'd say your projecting your beliefs ("a manly hero MUST be interested in women").

[78stonewobble]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

I believe that characters and sexualities can evolve, grow, and change throughout the course of a story, especially one as long as Mass Effect. Think of Willow from Buffy the Vampire Slayer--did her sexuality not grow and evolve with her character throughout the course of the story? Did you not know and love Willow for so very long as the shy, "straight" little bookworm with her quiet little crushes? Did you not learn to love her as the bold, confident lesbian unashamed of her sexuality?

I have faith that if the Bioware writers choose to show us a new side of old characters, they will do so with great care and consideration to the integrity of the established canon.

Sure they can evolve allthough I mostly see this process of finding ones true self.

In that case I would like to be able to see and note in some way that this person is in that process. Could be done quite beautifully I think.

It would seem weird that if it just comes out of the blue and everyone does it.

[78stonewobble]

diskoh wrote...

And on the subject of love interests, I would really be happy with anything, I'm just incredibly excited and grateful that they've decided to include it. Literally any of the past or present squadmates would be good with me, because I love (almost) all of them as characters.

That said, I do have my favorites. My picks would be:

For femShep, Miranda. I know that's probably the least popular pick among femShep same-sex supporters, but I think it would be a lovely story. If you read the personal info about her in the Shadow Broker's base, it paints a very sorrowful picture of her. She's lonely but reluctant and hesitant, she's obviously looking for something/someone but nobody seems to be what she is looking for. Obviously if you're a male Shepard he ends up being exactly what she's looking for. But what about if you're femShep? Is Miranda destined to be alone and infertile and depressed? Maybe the reason her extranet logs have her rejecting potential suitors at the slightest whim isn't entirely because of high standards, maybe she does it because what she truly wants is femShep.

I have less to say about male Shepard just because I play him much less. My choice for him would be Kaidan or Thane, and ultimately I would pick Kaidan simply because he's human. They go back the farthest out of any squadmate, but they share a much deeper and more intense relationship than the "bro" that Garrus is.

I can see your point with miranda. Would work.

I'll admit that with my straight guy eyes the extranet logs looked more like a woman wanting to genuinely wanting a child. Willing to go far and then finding out the hard truth.

Too bad that atleast that aspect of her backstory wasn't explored at all in the conversations.

[diskoh]

Comsky159 wrote...

diskoh wrote...

For months upon months I've had a lot of trouble wrapping my head around why it upsets some people if a previously unromancable character becomes a same sex option. I've heard all of the reasons, and all of them have an obvious answer to me and don't make sense. I guess it's just an emotional or intangible thing to people.

It's a matter of literary integrity. Changing sexuality of characters (particularly those we've known for a while) says that blatant fetishism is more important than the ME universe. It's been discussed a number of times and it's impossible to argue effectively about it without prominant literary theory on videogames.

I know that the OP didn't want discussion about continuity but I think it is the major issue with S/S romance at the moment and gravitation towards the topic in threads like this is quite evolutionary.

See, I don't mean to insult you or your opinion, but this just seems silly to me. The idea that the slow or even sudden development of feelings is in any way lacking in literary integrity or breaks continuity.

I've had far too many things in my life happen for me to understand this. My best friend since childhood, who I knew from elementary school, came out to me in our third year of college. He had dated girls many times. My reaction was not "You've changed your sexuality, this is a retcon and lacks literary integrity." And as I've said in a million of these discussions before, my wife and I were friends for 6 years before we ever developed romantic feelings and started dating. I compare it to Tali and Shepard, which many people have expressed dislike for because they consider it a retcon. I didn't meet my wife in Diskoh Effect 1, and say "Hello, I'm attracted to you and right away I have feelings for you." No, our feelings developed over several years and through many experiences together. Then we admitted it to one another.

This is just how real human (and I assume alien) emotions develop. Nothing is static or set in stone or black and white. There is no such thing as a closed door.

[Criz]

so ... if Shepard was in the mess hall omnoming on some chicken and Kaidan comes in and says "yummy, I like chicken, too." then it's retcon if he later craves some beef, because he only told Shepard he likes chicken, but didn't already explicitly express that he also likes beef and their conversation was just about chicken, but not meat in general?
I'm sorry for the weird comparison, I sometimes do those ...

just because they're more open towards gay romances in the ME future, doesn't mean it's something you always run around telling everyone

[Comsky159]

78stonewobble wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...

I believe that characters and sexualities can evolve, grow, and change throughout the course of a story, especially one as long as Mass Effect. Think of Willow from Buffy the Vampire Slayer--did her sexuality not grow and evolve with her character throughout the course of the story? Did you not know and love Willow for so very long as the shy, "straight" little bookworm with her quiet little crushes? Did you not learn to love her as the bold, confident lesbian unashamed of her sexuality?

I have faith that if the Bioware writers choose to show us a new side of old characters, they will do so with great care and consideration to the integrity of the established canon.

Sure they can evolve allthough I mostly see this process of finding ones true self.

In that case I would like to be able to see and note in some way that this person is in that process. Could be done quite beautifully I think.

It would seem weird that if it just comes out of the blue and everyone does it.

I just wish Bioware would have made the decision to include S/S in ME1, introducing it now makes this option  far more problematic then it had to be. If they were going to be ultimately libertarian, then they should have just bitten the bullet when S/S was only a social issue, now there is the potential for gamebreaking literary problems to arise. I wouldn't have cared in ME1, now at this later stage I do.

[diskoh]

78stonewobble wrote...

I'll admit that with my straight guy eyes the extranet logs looked more like a woman wanting to genuinely wanting a child. Willing to go far and then finding out the hard truth.

All the more reason for her to end up with female Shepard. Clone Miranda, stick the clone egg in Shepard's uterus. Bingo bango, my two mommies.

[Aradace]

Well, this isnt going to scream fanservice or anything. /sarcasm
Seriously though, it's not that I mind BW putting it in, it's the fact that they're probably going to pull another DA2 and make ALL the LIs "bisexual" instead of only a couple of them. Kaiden, I can see being one of the "bisexual" ones. I can even see Miranda and/or Jack being one. But characters like Garrus, Tali, or Ashley? I hope not.

[Maugrim]

There is nothing in Mass Effect that isn't fanservice so I always chuckle when that's thrown around as an insult. Sometimes you're just not the fan they are servicing.  For some reason no one ever complains when they are a part of the fan group that is being served.  Funny how that works isn't it?<_<

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 14 juin 2011 - 08:51 .

[diskoh]

Criz-Zone wrote...

so ... if Shepard was in the mess hall omnoming on some chicken and Kaidan comes in and says "yummy, I like chicken, too." then it's retcon if he later craves some beef, because he only told Shepard he likes chicken, but didn't already explicitly express that he also likes beef and their conversation was just about chicken, but not meat in general?
I'm sorry for the weird comparison, I sometimes do those ...

just because they're more open towards gay romances in the ME future, doesn't mean it's something you always run around telling everyone

I was going to do the same weird analogy but with Tali and her favorite color

[Aradace]

makenzieshepard wrote...

There is nothing in Mass Effect that isn't fanservice so I always chuckle when that's thrown around as an insult. Sometimes you're just not the fan they are servicing.  For some reason no one ever complains about that.

It's not intended as an insult so much as its intended as a matter of fact statement.  I get your point however and agree that it's not the best term to use to describe whats going on here but I unfortunately dont know a better one.  As I said, a couple of the LIs being Bi wont be so bad.  But if they go full out DA2 and just make ALL of them Bi, I at least hope that they make it so that you can plainly tell whether or not you're about to say something that would be construed as "persuing" the romance.  

[78stonewobble]

diskoh wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...

I'll admit that with my straight guy eyes the extranet logs looked more like a woman wanting to genuinely wanting a child. Willing to go far and then finding out the hard truth.

All the more reason for her to end up with female Shepard. Clone Miranda, stick the clone egg in Shepard's uterus. Bingo bango, my two mommies.

ONLY if the dad donor get parental rights  ... which is also a problem in todays society I don't understand could be a problem.


In my humble oppinion the very best way to solve this would be for bioware just continue with most of the straight characters a bi and add a few new persons.

However they should technically add voice/script possibility to make every character bi, gay or straight.

Think of it as an ingame squadmate editor. Heck there are other things too you could wanna change. Like more options for how the different classes should be built also for NPC's.

Also leaves room for you to decide which squadmates are "enemies", friends or lovers themselves? Which some other people would like in the game.

Basically a standard canon version for biowares creative vision but add this optional or tweaking element. Which would ad a helluvalot of Roleplaying to it.

Everybody wins situation :

Especially because I oppinions are so different upon who would into what. Seems to me that part of the fun here is that you get to add something yourself to the different characters backstories.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 14 juin 2011 - 09:04 .

[diskoh]

78stonewobble wrote...

diskoh wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...

I'll admit that with my straight guy eyes the extranet logs looked more like a woman wanting to genuinely wanting a child. Willing to go far and then finding out the hard truth.

All the more reason for her to end up with female Shepard. Clone Miranda, stick the clone egg in Shepard's uterus. Bingo bango, my two mommies.

ONLY if the dad donor get parental rights  ... which is also a problem in todays society I don't understand could be a problem.

They have the technology to eliminate the 'dad' altogether. Miranda was created using a copy of her father's genome. She doesn't have a biological mother, they only needed 1 parent and were able to fill in the rest with genetic engineering.

Modifié par diskoh, 14 juin 2011 - 09:03 .

[Maugrim]

Aradace wrote...
 But if they go full out DA2 and just make ALL of them Bi, I at least hope that they make it so that you can plainly tell whether or not you're about to say something that would be construed as "persuing" the romance.  

You mean something like they did in DA2 with a big honking heart icon or its equivalent?  Sounds good to me. Even if they don't make them all bi this is something they should do.  I know many people who have complained about ninjamancing, though it's a phenomenon that is foreign to my experience.  It's an issue that is completely separate from the inclusion of s/s romances.  I still don't mind characters making a first romantic advance IF it fits that character, like it does in the case of Anders. 

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 14 juin 2011 - 09:08 .

[78stonewobble]

diskoh wrote...
They have the technology to eliminate the 'dad' altogether. Miranda was created using a copy of her father's genome. She doesn't have a biological mother, they only needed 1 parent and were able to fill in the rest with genetic engineering.

Good point... I'd forgotten about that. However isn't mirandas background something a reminder of not genetically "designing" children?

[diskoh]

78stonewobble wrote...

diskoh wrote...
They have the technology to eliminate the 'dad' altogether. Miranda was created using a copy of her father's genome. She doesn't have a biological mother, they only needed 1 parent and were able to fill in the rest with genetic engineering.

Good point... I'd forgotten about that. However isn't mirandas background something a reminder of not genetically "designing" children?

Indeed. She probably wouldn't want to do it anyways, considering how heavily her own engineering seems to weigh on her.

Still, if she is really desparate for a child, it's her only option besides adoption. And can you imagine a child with Miranda's genetic perfection mixed with Shepard's general badassery?

[Aradace]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Aradace wrote...
 But if they go full out DA2 and just make ALL of them Bi, I at least hope that they make it so that you can plainly tell whether or not you're about to say something that would be construed as "persuing" the romance.  

You mean something like they did in DA2 with a big honking heart icon or its equivalent?  Sounds good to me. Even if they don't make them all bi this is something they should do.  I know many people who have complained about ninjamancing, though it's a phenomenon that is foreign too my experience.  It's an issue that is completely separate from the inclusion of s/s romances.  I still don't mind characters making a first romantic advance IF it fits that character, like it does in the case of Anders. 

Precisely what Im talking about.  Off topic a bit but by doing this, they should also do the dialog wheel ala DA2 entirely IMO.  While not perfect, you at least knew the "intent" of what was going to be said instead of having to completely guess lol.  Ok, sorry about that back OT now 

[78stonewobble]

Anyways back to topic.

Just my view:

Kaidan could be gay or bi.

Ashley strikes me as straight. She might seem "repressed" in that there overly conservative way but since it's 2134? I think she would be quite aware of the chance that she was gay / bi. So I just think that she's past that.

Liara doesn't care. I don't think a 1 gender species would think much about the gender problem but offcourse have their own tastes. Goes for samara/morinth too.

Miranda: Could be anything. Good points from diskoh. Allthough I stiiiill kinda see her as mostly straight.

Tali could be an option for someone finding herself / evolving. However it does seem she crush or love canon mshep a bit too much. She is young though.

The rest seems straight in my oppinion. Sadly to some maybe but to me it's "in character".

[78stonewobble]

diskoh wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...

diskoh wrote...
They have the technology to eliminate the 'dad' altogether. Miranda was created using a copy of her father's genome. She doesn't have a biological mother, they only needed 1 parent and were able to fill in the rest with genetic engineering.

Good point... I'd forgotten about that. However isn't mirandas background something a reminder of not genetically "designing" children?

Indeed. She probably wouldn't want to do it anyways, considering how heavily her own engineering seems to weigh on her.

Still, if she is really desparate for a child, it's her only option besides adoption. And can you imagine a child with Miranda's genetic perfection mixed with Shepard's general badassery?

Hmm I guess my shephard have kind of a sensitive side and would carry the child for her.  Not that miranda's my cup of tea.

[AlexMBrennan]

ALL the LIs "bisexual" instead of only a couple of them. Kaiden, I can see being one of the "bisexual" ones. I can even see Miranda and/or Jack being one. But characters like Garrus, Tali, or Ashley? I hope not.

So, being raped by a woman makes Jack a lesbian whilst a quarian teenager's sexual orientation is fixed for life? Could you please explain how that makes any sense whatsoever?