Shep: you must have someone you care about?Darkhour wrote...
Criz-Zone wrote...
I liked that Jack implied being lesbian, but wasn't interested in femShep; but I can also understand how some femShep players wouldn't like this if they intended to romance her
She implied she was a in a 3-some with a man and a woman. That doesn't mean she did anything with the other woman.
Darkhour wrote...
Criz-Zone wrote...
I liked that Jack implied being lesbian, but wasn't interested in femShep; but I can also understand how some femShep players wouldn't like this if they intended to romance her
She implied she was a in a 3-some with a man and a woman. That doesn't mean she did anything with the other woman.
Darkhour wrote...
I lie implies willful deceit. As I have never experienced a high level of recognition of a heterosexual relationship in DA2, my comments are made in truth. I can't comment or make judgements based on other people's (at that point unknown) experiences.
Modifié par diskoh, 14 juin 2011 - 03:45 .
Guest_CaptainIsabela_*
Siansonea II wrote...
Darkhour wrote...
Criz-Zone wrote...
I liked that Jack implied being lesbian, but wasn't interested in femShep; but I can also understand how some femShep players wouldn't like this if they intended to romance her
She implied she was a in a 3-some with a man and a woman. That doesn't mean she did anything with the other woman.
I do find it significant that she calls the woman by her name (Marana) but just refers to the man as "her boyfriend". Clearly Marana was the person Jack was most attached to, whether romantically or otherwise. I've often thought that Jack's hatred of Miranda was rather disproportionate, especially given her complete indifference toward Jacob. Jack should hate Jacob just as much as she hates Miranda, him being a Cerberus operative and all. For that matter, Jack should hate everyone with a Cerberus logo on their uniform, including Joker, Dr. Chakwas, Kelly, Ken, Gaby, etc. And yet the only one she hates is Miranda.
My point is that characters can often be "unreliable narrators" of their own lives, and that there is hopefully a lot left to learn about them, surprises and contradictions. I do hope that not all of those surprises and contradictions involve romance, though, and I certainly hope they're not buried in romance-only dialogue. I could definitely see a point being made for Jack being bi. In fact, I wouldn't even mind if Jack was still limited to romancing MaleShep, because FemShep isn't the type of woman Jack goes for (maybe she prefers a more submissive woman?).
diskoh wrote...
To me, the most obvious bisexual squaddie to me isn't really Jack, but Tali.
All the signs of the crush are still there with femShep. All the hints and the overt flirting. The only difference is that when Tali says she'd want to link suits with Shepard, when femShep starts flirting back she gets flustered and drops it. "Tali, are you blushing?!" That doesn't mean she's not interested, just that she was hella embarrassed.
Also, it was probably just overlooked, but as we're all aware if you're in a femShep playthrough in LotSB, Tali's dossier says she looked up the same stuff about human mating and courtship.
CaptainIsabela wrote...
Siansonea II wrote...
Darkhour wrote...
Criz-Zone wrote...
I liked that Jack implied being lesbian, but wasn't interested in femShep; but I can also understand how some femShep players wouldn't like this if they intended to romance her
She implied she was a in a 3-some with a man and a woman. That doesn't mean she did anything with the other woman.
I do find it significant that she calls the woman by her name (Marana) but just refers to the man as "her boyfriend". Clearly Marana was the person Jack was most attached to, whether romantically or otherwise. I've often thought that Jack's hatred of Miranda was rather disproportionate, especially given her complete indifference toward Jacob. Jack should hate Jacob just as much as she hates Miranda, him being a Cerberus operative and all. For that matter, Jack should hate everyone with a Cerberus logo on their uniform, including Joker, Dr. Chakwas, Kelly, Ken, Gaby, etc. And yet the only one she hates is Miranda.
My point is that characters can often be "unreliable narrators" of their own lives, and that there is hopefully a lot left to learn about them, surprises and contradictions. I do hope that not all of those surprises and contradictions involve romance, though, and I certainly hope they're not buried in romance-only dialogue. I could definitely see a point being made for Jack being bi. In fact, I wouldn't even mind if Jack was still limited to romancing MaleShep, because FemShep isn't the type of woman Jack goes for (maybe she prefers a more submissive woman?).
Maybe Jack is jealous of what Miri portrays on the outside - perfect body, perfect face, success blah blah blah. Sometimes people are envious of what they perceive another to be..
So Jack attacks... I have done that before so empathise if this is the case :s
Abispa wrote...
I do find it odd that so many people have said something to the effect that if ME3 makes previously introduced party members bisexual that they will either not buy the game or never by a Bioware game again.
First, let me say that if ME3 is such a flimsy game that a romance options are the deciding factor on whether or not its a good game, the game sucks, period. You + 2 mass murdering buddies (at a time) taking on an invasion of evil, god-like sapient starships with nothing but your wits, machine guns, rocket launchers and some dramatic cut scenes of Joker piloting the Normandy is what I'm going to base my review on.
Everything else is candy. If you don't like that candy, don't try it. It's optional. Having a temper tantrum because somebody else is weeping for joy that s/he can have male Shepard romancing Garrus seems incredibly sad to me.
For the record, I was one of the ones rolling my eyes when I stumbled into discovering that you could romance Tali and Garrus in ME2, but that didn't kill the game for me. In fact, I still enjoyed it very much. If you're a Talimancer, cool, and my girlfriend loves Garrus. *sigh* I was more upset that my "survivor" Shepard didn't have the option of throwing Cerberus personnel out the airlock.
And I'd like some specific romance talk, some flirting.
Guest_CaptainIsabela_*
Siansonea II wrote...
True, and Miranda also represents something Jack doesn't: control. Jack embraces wanton destruction, complete abandon, "chaotic evil", as it were, whereas Miranda represents a regimented and codified approach, rules and regulations, "lawful evil". The first thing Miranda says to Jack on the Normandy is "on this ship, we follow orders". I could see Miranda's prissy perfection and rule-following getting under Jack's skin, but it still makes me wonder, why doesn't Jacob elicit some parallel degree of animosity? Jacob is kind of a "perfect specimen" himself, and he's just as much of a Cerberus lackey as Miranda, though not "second in command" like Miranda. Miranda's position of authority (which is still second to Shepard) can't be the only reason for Jack's hatred of her.
i think jack also has a little bit of a crush on miri as well and also because miri refuses to admit that it was cerberuse that did those things to jackCaptainIsabela wrote...
Siansonea II wrote...
True, and Miranda also represents something Jack doesn't: control. Jack embraces wanton destruction, complete abandon, "chaotic evil", as it were, whereas Miranda represents a regimented and codified approach, rules and regulations, "lawful evil". The first thing Miranda says to Jack on the Normandy is "on this ship, we follow orders". I could see Miranda's prissy perfection and rule-following getting under Jack's skin, but it still makes me wonder, why doesn't Jacob elicit some parallel degree of animosity? Jacob is kind of a "perfect specimen" himself, and he's just as much of a Cerberus lackey as Miranda, though not "second in command" like Miranda. Miranda's position of authority (which is still second to Shepard) can't be the only reason for Jack's hatred of her.
Maybe it is a gender/sex thing then. If Jack perhaps does connect stronger with women, she may feel more threatened by Miranda, than she does Jacob. Plus, obviously Miri's personality is stronger. Jack will likely react to this rather than someone as regimented but sits in the background.
I don't think the threat is the authority (though given what has happened to Jack in the past, she obviously dislikes being couped under in strictness and a pecking order, as such). The threat is Miranda's personality for sure..and attitude. And possibly beautiful looks.
They seem complete oppisites. She might have distain for her also, due to the anger.. something Miri is showing her is triggering emotions from her past. I am babbling now and just typing out loud..interesting though
Modifié par rolson00, 14 juin 2011 - 04:27 .
RinjiRenee wrote...
diskoh wrote...
To me, the most obvious bisexual squaddie to me isn't really Jack, but Tali.
All the signs of the crush are still there with femShep. All the hints and the overt flirting. The only difference is that when Tali says she'd want to link suits with Shepard, when femShep starts flirting back she gets flustered and drops it. "Tali, are you blushing?!" That doesn't mean she's not interested, just that she was hella embarrassed.
Also, it was probably just overlooked, but as we're all aware if you're in a femShep playthrough in LotSB, Tali's dossier says she looked up the same stuff about human mating and courtship.
I was wondering about that dossier stuff, thanks for that. I haven't gotten to my femshep playthrough yet and wondered if that was the case.
Guest_CaptainIsabela_*
rolson00 wrote...
i think jack also has a little bit of a crush on miri as well and also because miri refuses to admit that it was cerberuse that did those things to jackCaptainIsabela wrote...
Siansonea II wrote...
True, and Miranda also represents something Jack doesn't: control. Jack embraces wanton destruction, complete abandon, "chaotic evil", as it were, whereas Miranda represents a regimented and codified approach, rules and regulations, "lawful evil". The first thing Miranda says to Jack on the Normandy is "on this ship, we follow orders". I could see Miranda's prissy perfection and rule-following getting under Jack's skin, but it still makes me wonder, why doesn't Jacob elicit some parallel degree of animosity? Jacob is kind of a "perfect specimen" himself, and he's just as much of a Cerberus lackey as Miranda, though not "second in command" like Miranda. Miranda's position of authority (which is still second to Shepard) can't be the only reason for Jack's hatred of her.
Maybe it is a gender/sex thing then. If Jack perhaps does connect stronger with women, she may feel more threatened by Miranda, than she does Jacob. Plus, obviously Miri's personality is stronger. Jack will likely react to this rather than someone as regimented but sits in the background.
I don't think the threat is the authority (though given what has happened to Jack in the past, she obviously dislikes being couped under in strictness and a pecking order, as such). The threat is Miranda's personality for sure..and attitude. And possibly beautiful looks.
They seem complete oppisites. She might have distain for her also, due to the anger.. something Miri is showing her is triggering emotions from her past. I am babbling now and just typing out loud..interesting though
Stardusk78 wrote...
KawaiiKatie wrote...
Comsky159 wrote...
It's a matter of literary integrity. Changing sexuality of characters (particularly those we've known for a while) says that blatant fetishism is more important than the ME universe. It's been discussed a number of times and it's impossible to argue effectively about it without prominant literary theory on videogames.
I know that the OP didn't want discussion about continuity but I think it is the major issue with S/S romance at the moment and gravitation towards the topic in threads like this is quite evolutionary.
I believe that characters and sexualities can evolve, grow, and change throughout the course of a story, especially one as long as Mass Effect. Think of Willow from Buffy the Vampire Slayer--did her sexuality not grow and evolve with her character throughout the course of the story? Did you not know and love Willow for so very long as the shy, "straight" little bookworm with her quiet little crushes? Did you not learn to love her as the bold, confident lesbian unashamed of her sexuality?
I have faith that if the Bioware writers choose to show us a new side of old characters, they will do so with great care and consideration to the integrity of the established canon.
Doe real people's sexuality grow and develop? Am I straight for 5 years, bi for 4 after that and gay for 20 after that? Terrible argument.
Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 14 juin 2011 - 04:41 .
mopotter wrote...
For the most part, this I agree with.
If they make every member of your team bisexual in ME3 and they all want to have sex with Shepard no matter whether your male or female, I'll still buy the game because i want to see the end of the story.
I just won't do any of the new ss romances with characters i romanced in previous games, whether it's Jack or Kaidan. And I'll have to hope they don't mess up any of the romance conversations.
My personal choice is new SS romance options, not bisexual because I'd like someone who isn't interested in anyone except a same sex romance partner. That would be far more interesting to me than a bisexual character, though I'll play any new character romance to see what the characters are like and how the story is written.
I don't like my crew and team members changing from game to game. I've got more than one female and male Shepard's and for me, I want the NPC's I talk to in ME1 and ME2 as Kate and Mark to act the same in ME3 whether or not I romanced them, but especially if I did romance them.
And I want friendship options. Please, i want to be able to talk to them without romancing and I want to be able to tell someone to back off, nicely. I didn't like the consort just hugging me. I didn't know her, don't hug strangers.
Modifié par TommyServo, 14 juin 2011 - 04:37 .
TommyServo wrote...
mopotter wrote...
For the most part, this I agree with.
If they make every member of your team bisexual in ME3 and they all want to have sex with Shepard no matter whether your male or female, I'll still buy the game because i want to see the end of the story.
I just won't do any of the new ss romances with characters i romanced in previous games, whether it's Jack or Kaidan. And I'll have to hope they don't mess up any of the romance conversations.
My personal choice is new SS romance options, not bisexual because I'd like someone who isn't interested in anyone except a same sex romance partner. That would be far more interesting to me than a bisexual character, though I'll play any new character romance to see what the characters are like and how the story is written.
I don't like my crew and team members changing from game to game. I've got more than one female and male Shepard's and for me, I want the NPC's I talk to in ME1 and ME2 as Kate and Mark to act the same in ME3 whether or not I romanced them, but especially if I did romance them.
And I want friendship options. Please, i want to be able to talk to them without romancing and I want to be able to tell someone to back off, nicely. I didn't like the consort just hugging me. I didn't know her, don't hug strangers.
We all want friendship paths, and they recognize that. It was done well in DAO and DA2, so we know they're capable of it. I believe Casey even acknowledged that they'd be implementing this in another tweet.
I think everyone bi is an alright solution, personally, as long as the romances are player initiated. It allows you to dictate your own personal canon, and I think that Bioware can write it into previously existing characters very easily without changing the character. Also - and I don't think I'm alone in this - I don't need character consistency from game to game, but from playthrough to playthrough. I'm quite happy for August Shepard to interact with a gay Kaidan, Sarah Shepard to interact with a straight Kaidan, and Algernon Shepard to (not) interact with a dead Kaidan, because each playthrough is it's own thing.
That's not to say that completely new options, be they existing characters who were formerly unromanceable by anyone or totally new, wouldn't be a great solution too.
Ryzaki wrote...
Darkhour wrote...
I lie implies willful deceit. As I have never experienced a high level of recognition of a heterosexual relationship in DA2, my comments are made in truth. I can't comment or make judgements based on other people's (at that point unknown) experiences.
Then both of you would've been telling the truth though your information would've been wrong. You're still in the same boat. *shrugs* I have to wonder how you missed all of that but whatever.
jlb524 wrote...
I'm not one to pick apart every potential LI and say 'this one makes sense as bi and this one doesn't' because I feel they all could make sense. Really, how does one person even 'make sense' while another does not? It's like trying to make sense of someone liking asparagus.
Guest_Nyoka_*
Modifié par Nyoka, 14 juin 2011 - 04:55 .
jlb524 wrote...
I'm not one to pick apart every potential LI and say 'this one makes sense as bi and this one doesn't' because I feel they all could make sense. Really, how does one person even 'make sense' while another does not? It's like trying to make sense of someone liking asparagus.Ryzaki wrote...
Darkhour wrote...
I lie implies willful deceit. As I have never experienced a high level of recognition of a heterosexual relationship in DA2, my comments are made in truth. I can't comment or make judgements based on other people's (at that point unknown) experiences.
Then both of you would've been telling the truth though your information would've been wrong. You're still in the same boat. *shrugs* I have to wonder how you missed all of that but whatever.
All I said was that there wasn't any party banter for Leliana/FemWarden (and there isn't) while there are plenty for Leliana or Morrigan/MaleWarden, for example, but admitted that Wynne does comment. I'm not the only one that has said this...I thought it was pretty common knowledge that there's no party banter written for Leliana/FemWarden.
)
It wouldn't be a great solution if the s/s option was either only a new character or a previously unromancable secondary character (like Joker or Anderson). With secondary characters, it would just feel considerably lesser compared to romances with full-time squadmates. Every main LI in the previous games was a perma-squaddie. And if the only s/s option is a new character, then there's zero trilogy experience in that. I'm all for more options, but the s/s option in ME3 can't be restricted solely to a new and/or secondary character. There must be a previous perma-squaddie available for s/s romance with some of the variables and choice flags from the previous incorporated in the romance in ME3. That's the only way to make the s/s romances (particulary m/m ones) at least come close to the full, trilogy-spanning experience straight players got.TommyServo wrote...
That's not to say that completely new options, be they existing characters who were formerly unromanceable by anyone or totally new, wouldn't be a great solution too.
Modifié par IsaacShep, 14 juin 2011 - 05:02 .
Modifié par bleetman, 14 juin 2011 - 05:04 .
Nyoka wrote...
The 'make sense' thing is based completely on stereotypes. Jack 'makes sense' because she's not ladylike or demure or passive, so she could be a lesbian, while Ashley is military and politically conservative and therefore she MUST be strictly heterosexual. By doing this, we are reducing people to labels (i.e., we are writing flat characters), forgetting that they are people first, and all of those things second.
Nyoka wrote...
The 'make sense' thing is based completely on stereotypes. Jack 'makes sense' because she's not ladylike or demure or passive, so she could be a lesbian, while Ashley is military and politically conservative and therefore she MUST be strictly heterosexual. By doing this, we are reducing people to labels (i.e., we are writing flat characters), forgetting that they are people first, and all of those things second.
IsaacShep wrote...
It wouldn't be a great solution if the s/s option was either only a new character or a previously unromancable secondary character (like Joker or Anderson). WIth secondary characters, it would just feel considerably unsignificant compared to romances with full-time squadmates. Every main LI in the previous games was a perma-squaddie. And if the only s/s option is a new character, then there's zero trilogy experience in that. I'm all for more options, but the s/s option in ME3 can't be restricted solely to a new and/or secondary character as the only s/s option is a no-go. There must be a previous perma-squaddie available for s/s romance with some of the variables and choice flags from the previous incorporated in the romance in ME3. That's the only way to make the s/s romances (particulary m/m ones) at least come close to the full, trilogy-spanning experience straight players got.TommyServo wrote...
That's not to say that completely new options, be they existing characters who were formerly unromanceable by anyone or totally new, wouldn't be a great solution too.
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