25715 réponses à ce sujet

[KawaiiKatie]

Siansonea II wrote...

Basically what I'm saying is that not everything in the game is an egregious case of willful and malicious heteronormativity. Some people just don't think about it that much. 

You cannot tell me that the Mass Effect series, through the first and second game, were not extreme cases of heterocentrism. You can nit-pick every single example if you'd like ("Well, Aria doens't know any better, she's monogendered!") but what you have to realize is that, together, all of the examples formulate a heteronormative whole.

Hence my quote, "Just one more person in the universe who assumes that the Saviour of All Life Everywhere must be straight." No, not everything is a malicious jibe at homosexuality, but the complete disregard of homosexual men and the ever-prevalent "straight until proven gay" is quite depressing, and left unaddressed it would've kept me from purchasing ME3.

[Siansonea]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Basically what I'm saying is that not everything in the game is an egregious case of willful and malicious heteronormativity. Some people just don't think about it that much. 

You cannot tell me that the Mass Effect series, through the first and second game, were not extreme cases of heterocentrism. You can nit-pick every single example if you'd like ("Well, Aria doens't know any better, she's monogendered!") but what you have to realize is that, together, all of the examples formulate a heteronormative whole.

Hence my quote, "Just one more person in the universe who assumes that the Saviour of All Life Everywhere must be straight." No, not everything is a malicious jibe at homosexuality, but the complete disregard of homosexual men and the ever-prevalent "straight until proven gay" is quite depressing, and left unaddressed it would've kept me from purchasing ME3.

I guess I haven't been that observant about all the other instances of this in the games, do you have a list of those? It might be helpful if I had a clearer picture of how pervasive the phenomenon is, since I don't really seem to be attuned to it.  I have a feeling I would really only take issue with human characters who've shown themselves to be particularly perceptive, or characters who should know better than to assume something like that.

I think it's somewhat understandable to unconsciously assume a person is straight, since it's statistically the most likely, and I don't think it's always malicious. I absently assumed my two gay cousins and my bisexual nephew were straight until they told me otherwise, then I was like "oh, okay" and that was the extent of it. Of course now that I've been through that with them, I'm much more aware that I can't assume anything like that with the various young people in the family, I'm more aware of it. But I wasn't trying to project some kind of heterosexual agenda onto them, I was just kind of oblivious about that aspect of their lives until they clued me in. I simply didn't care that much which gender(s) they're attracted to, I've always felt that as long as they find someone nice that treats them well, it's all good.  

Modifié par Siansonea II, 26 juillet 2011 - 05:14 .

[KawaiiKatie]

Siansonea II wrote...

I guess I haven't been that observant about all the other instances of this in the games, do you have a list of those? It might be helpful if I had a clearer picture of how pervasive the phenomenon is, since I don't really seem to be attuned to it.

It's mostly when other characters just assume that your Shepard would be (or would not be) intereste din them because of their gender. Like when my Shepard just stood there and smiled when Gianna kissed him, or when he smirked, intrigued and aroused, when Shiala did the same. Or when I picked the Renegade option when speaking with Ronald Taylor, hoping to harshly rebuke him, and instead my gay Shepard smirked and said, "I have to admit, this place would be one hell of a vacation spot." and implied that he would love to spend some time on Rape Island with his own harem of willing female slaves.

Both ME1 and ME2 just assume that male Shepard is straight, and they bring that assumption down to the level of Shepard himself. You'd be surprised how difficult it is to avoid options where male Shepard himself doesn't make subtle "btw, I'm straight" comments. Though this was amusing the first time I ran my gay Shepard (I roleplayed him from the angle of "He's lying to himself") but, after a while, it becomes tiring, annoying, and almost offensive.

I think it's somewhat understandable to unconsciously assume a person is straight, since it's statistically the most likely, and I don't think it's always malicious.

No, it's not always malicious. No, I don't think that Bioware was trying to foist some heteronormative agenda onto the masses. But they clearly were not thinking about a homosexual man when making male Shepard. Female Shepard occasional gets chances to roleplay as a lesbian (BTW, does she get the chance to say "oh yeah I'd be down for a lesbian harem" to Ronald Taylor? I've never played lesbianShepard) but male Shepard never, never gets the chance to be gay, and the player has to outright maneuver around the heterosexual implications. Do I think Bioware ignored gay Shepard intentionally? Well, no. At least, I hope not. But it's clear that homosexual male Shepard didn't even figure into their thoughts at all, and while it may not have been malicious, it's still a form of the heteronormative bias.

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 26 juillet 2011 - 05:32 .

[xassantex]

Siansonea II wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

Though I was a tad miffed by the "find yourself a nice girl/man" line. How insensitive 

Just one more person in the universe who assumes that the Saviour of All Life Everywhere must be straight.

Or human gender dynamics don't interest her and she knows only the basics. After all, asari have no real concept of gender, since they are a single-sex species. So even though there are numerous dual-sex species throughout the galaxy, I can't imagine she could be bothered to remember the niceties of gender relations amongst all of those species. She probably heard somewhere that humans tend to have romantic interest in the opposite sex more often than not, and she went with that. Aria's not the type to investigate the sexual preference of some random human that shows up on Omega, she'll assume they're like most of the other humans she's heard about, and simply not care if she got that minor detail about them wrong. Aria is not impressed by Shepard, she suffers Shepard's presence because it suits her purpose, but she is much more concerned about things that affect her directly. 

Basically what I'm saying is that not everything in the game is an egregious case of willful and malicious heteronormativity. Some people just don't think about it that much. 

not so sure about her not being impressed with Shep. He brings dow eclipse, blood packs and blue suns on Omega,  goes into the quarantine zone and cleans it up, and rescues patriarch. 
she knows he defeated Saren, killed a reaper etc. 
she may be playing Mother Superior with him ( mShep here) but deep down she's probably ****ting her pants he's not coming after her. 

[Siansonea]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

I guess I haven't been that observant about all the other instances of this in the games, do you have a list of those? It might be helpful if I had a clearer picture of how pervasive the phenomenon is, since I don't really seem to be attuned to it.

It's mostly when other characters just assume that your Shepard would be (or would not be) intereste din them because of their gender. Like when my Shepard just stood there and smiled when Gianna kissed him, or when he smirked, intrigued and aroused, when Shiala did the same. Or when I picked the Renegade option when speaking with Ronald Taylor, hoping to harshly rebuke him, and instead my gay Shepard smirked and said, "I have to admit, this place would be one hell of a vacation spot." and implied that he would love to spend some time on Rape Island with his own harem of willing female slaves.

Both ME1 and ME2 just assume that male Shepard is straight, and they bring that assumption down to the level of Shepard himself. You'd be surprised how difficult it is to avoid options where male Shepard himself doesn't make subtle "btw, I'm straight" comments. Though this was amusing the first time I ran my gay Shepard (I roleplayed him from the angle of "He's lying to himself") but, after a while, it becomes tiring, annoying, and almost offensive.

I think it's somewhat understandable to unconsciously assume a person is straight, since it's statistically the most likely, and I don't think it's always malicious.

No, it's not always malicious. No, I don't think that Bioware was trying to foist some heteronormative agenda onto the masses. But they clearly were not thinking about a homosexual man when making male Shepard. Female Shepard occasional gets chances to roleplay as a lesbian (BTW, does she get the chance to say "oh yeah I'd be down for a lesbian harem" to Ronald Taylor? I've never played lesbianShepard) but male Shepard never, never gets the chance to be gay, and the player has to outright maneuver around the heterosexual implications. Do I think Bioware ignored gay Shepard intentionally? Well, no. At least, I hope not. But it's clear that homosexual male Shepard didn't even figure into their thoughts at all, and while it may not have been malicious, it's still a form of the heteronormative bias.

Well, the good news is they appear to have gotten the message, to some degree at least. 

[KawaiiKatie]

Siansonea II wrote...
Well, the good news is they appear to have gotten the message, to some degree at least. 

I'll drink to that!

[Ryzaki]

Oh god the renegade on Jacob's loyalty mission.
Tempting but taken too far. 

I hate BW paraphrases. I was expecting him to say something like "Yeah I can see why being worshipped as a god would be nice but not acceptable." especially given the whole convo renegade is badering him. 

But..."can't' say this wouldn't be a hell of a vacation." Really? Paragon maybe facepalm cheesy but I'll take that over Renegade's borderline insanity. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 juillet 2011 - 06:13 .

[shepskisaac]

During the writers panel at Comic Con, David Gaider said a great thing how it's hard not to get the assumption stuck in writer's head that the character is male (and straight). Too bad it seems exactly what has happened to ME writers in ME1 & ME2, at least in the sexuality department.

[Cuddlezarro]

Sergiyftw wrote...



.

fixed your post for you

[Jimmy Fury]

KawaiiKatie wrote...
But it's clear that homosexual male Shepard didn't even figure into their thoughts at all, and while it may not have been malicious, it's still a form of the heteronormative bias.

I definitely agree that the heteronormativity was there. Probably, hopefully, not intentional but I felt it too.
The frustrating thing (to me at least) is that the possibility of GayShep did figure into their thoughts at one point. GayShep was a possibility while ME was in development, at least long enough to result in the dialogue recording.
But then maybe it was only ever considered a possibility in Drew's mind and not in Mac's. Most of the incidents mentioned were in 2 when Mac was lead writer.

Not trying to suggest Mac was being malicious or intentionally heteronormative about it or anything. Just a bit frustrating that his take ended up feeling that way from a gay player's (me) perspective.

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 26 juillet 2011 - 06:49 .

[Siansonea]

@Sergiyftw: Reported. Take it somewhere else.

@Cuddlezarro: Don't respond like this, it's better to just report these types of posts to the moderators, with a link to the offending post. 

Modifié par Siansonea II, 26 juillet 2011 - 07:00 .

[shepskisaac]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Most of the incidents mentioned were in 2 when Mac was lead writer.

That is unfortunately true. Not saying either that Mac did it on purpouse, but I definitely think he unconciously self-inserted a straight male POV into ManShep, a writer's mistake Drew mostly avoided IMO.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 26 juillet 2011 - 07:02 .

[Cuddlezarro]

Siansonea II wrote...

@Sergiyftw: Reported. Take it somewhere else.

@Cuddlezarro: Don't respond like this, it's better to just report these types of posts to the moderators, with a link to the offending post. 

but wheres the fun in that!?

[Cuddlezarro]

IsaacShep wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Most of the incidents mentioned were in 2 when Mac was lead writer.

That is unfortunately true. Not saying either that Mac did it on purpouse, but I definitely think he unconciously self-inserted a straight male POV into ManShep, a writer's mistake Drew mostly avoided IMO.

mostly but didnt completely *points to the renegade option with the consort when talking about a reward*

[shepskisaac]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

mostly but didnt completely *points to the renegade option with the consort when talking about a reward*

Don't remember that, can you say what it was?

[Siansonea]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

@Sergiyftw: Reported. Take it somewhere else.

@Cuddlezarro: Don't respond like this, it's better to just report these types of posts to the moderators, with a link to the offending post. 

but wheres the fun in that!?

Don't make me come over there. 

[Cuddlezarro]

IsaacShep wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

mostly but didnt completely *points to the renegade option with the consort when talking about a reward*

Don't remember that, can you say what it was?

I picked the renegade option and shepard said how he wasnt too frilled with the reward and next thing i know im boinking the consort

[Quething]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

I picked the renegade option and shepard said how he wasnt too frilled with the reward and next thing i know im boinking the consort

Haha, yes. That and the ME1 Kalisah punch are the two most egregious paraphrase fails in the history of paraphrase fail. Nothing in DA2 or ME2 was near that bad. Ninjamancing: not just for companions!

[ArawnNox]

Quething wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

I picked the renegade option and shepard said how he wasnt too frilled with the reward and next thing i know im boinking the consort

Haha, yes. That and the ME1 Kalisah punch are the two most egregious paraphrase fails in the history of paraphrase fail. Nothing in DA2 or ME2 was near that bad. Ninjamancing: not just for companions!

I first became aware of the Consort thing by a webcomic artist reffering to it as "accidental lesbian sex"

[Sergiyftw]

From what I can tell from the title this is a discussion, I said my part, and I said against.
Reporting me someone for an opinion, sure do that.

I still stand on my point, that it's wrong, very, very wrong to ruin games with something like this.
Knowing that no-one is going to try and support/elaborate on my opinion this is not a discussion thread, therefore this is my last post here.

[Siansonea]

@ Sergiyftw: You obviously didn't read the OP. Your discussion belongs elsewhere.

[Ryzaki]

Quething wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

I picked the renegade option and shepard said how he wasnt too frilled with the reward and next thing i know im boinking the consort

Haha, yes. That and the ME1 Kalisah punch are the two most egregious paraphrase fails in the history of paraphrase fail. Nothing in DA2 or ME2 was near that bad. Ninjamancing: not just for companions!

 

Yeah... "oh asking for more money! Cool I could use some more creds." *press "That's it?" dialogue choice*

OMG WHY?!?

[Cathey]

Someone mentioned earlier about being able to respond that you're gay if a character tells you to go get a gf/bf - that might be interesting for them to add if you've flirted with a same sex character and established you like them. For example, if I romance Liara that would be good to open other dialogue related to my Shep liking female, as a way to tell people 'stop telling me to like guys'.

That way the haters won't be able to say 'OMG WHY DO I HAVE A ****** REPLY OPTION!!?!?!???@@@' because if they see it - they've obviously hiding something

Modifié par Cathey, 26 juillet 2011 - 08:04 .

[Quething]

I think I would actually shell out $2 US for a DLC that just added lines like that to ME2. "Actually, Aria, I appreciate the thought, but I'd rather have a nice young woman." "Sorry, Shiala, I'm holding out for Kaidan." "I. AM. NOT. INTERESTED. GODDAMNIT."

(Oddly I am okay with the smirk in DA2 when you first meet Isabela. That may be unfair bias from my overwhelming love of Isabela.)

[silentassassin264]

Quething wrote...

I think I would actually shell out $2 US for a DLC that just added lines like that to ME2. "Actually, Aria, I appreciate the thought, but I'd rather have a nice young woman." "Sorry, Shiala, I'm holding out for Kaidan." "I. AM. NOT. INTERESTED. GODDAMNIT."

The only reason I would shell out $2 for Aria lines was if it was my femshep getting to say something along the lines of "Actually, I would much rather have you.":wub: