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[LiaraShepard]

Abispa wrote...

@ LiaraShepard -- I've already said before that I thought Miranda was a disappointment. As a concept I found her exciting until the story played out. I was thinking she'd be kind of like the sexy femme fatales of the classic James Bond films and a good renegade romance option, but after one mission she was declawed and started moaning about her lack of self esteem. At every mission that showed the cruel stupidity of Cerberus she always defended them and showed no sign of having second thoughts so I was shocked (and disappointed) when she quit at the Collector Base or expressed disappointment about Shepard saving it.

I think ME2 suffered from having too many characters and the opportunity to fully develop Miranda was squandered, making her yet another Shepard groupie. In a way, over the course of ME2 and LotSB, my opinion of Liara and Miranda traded places. Liara stopped being the typical groupie and developed a sense of independence I appreciated so I gave her a Shepard.

Yes there were too many characters and I think it's bad that we couldn't talk to them more often. Playing with my femshep Miranda always said she has a lot of things to do and no time to talk. I hope for more conversation possiblities in Mass Effect 3. And yes, Miranda wasn't easy to understand. Actually she should have had the opinion that it's better to save the collectors base. After all she never seemed to change her opinion about Cerberus, but suddenly she felt it would be wrong to do what the Illusive man says. But that just confirmes my opintion about her and that she "is above all"; that she always knows what to do, even if it suddenly is against her belief. That isn't very realistic. Since she's such a Cerberus cheerleader she should have had the opinion to safe the collectors base. :/   

Modifié par LiaraShepard, 26 juillet 2011 - 11:49 .

[Abispa]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Abispa - not everything needs to be spot on realistic. Any sort of media requires a degree of suspension of disbelief.
The Asari are a homage/spoof of the Green Skinned Alien Babe that pops up in early Science Fiction with regularity, most notably Star Trek.

I can suspend my disbelief for that. And for the psychic mating thing too given that all Asari are "biotic".

What I cant accept is FemShep not counting as Bisexual or Lesbian if she is attracted to Asari.

Dear God! I would NEVER demand video games be totally realistic! Having to bandage a wound and spend weeks in rehab after ever battle would get tiring!

I LOVE the ME series, but that doesn't mean that I think they're perfect. I thought the Asari fit way too many sci-fi babe cliches, and I found the Miranda ass-cam view of the world over the top. But I would never want other players who love Liara and Miranda to think I don't respect their affection for different characters. Unlike the "no-recon" fans who rage in these forums, I do not believe I alone hold the sacred orthodox view of the ME universe and cast moral judgment on others. I know I merely have an opinion.

[Quething]

I wouldn't say that Morrigan always won her arguments with Alistair. The "who betrayed Andraste" conversation springs to mind. They're actually a pretty much perfect pair, and it's the balance between them that makes both characters work. They're both huge hypocrites who like to lambast the Warden for deviating from their own unworkable, inconsistent standards, she thinks she knows way more than she actually does, and he needs to grow up. But you never have to say that because they say it to each other for you. Just when one of them starts to get completely obnoxious, the other will score a hit on them, make them look foolish, and engender either your approval of the winner or your sympathy for the loser, or both. It's an excellent balance that they completely failed to strike in DA2, which is I suspect why Fenris and Anders get so much more venom despite not being particularly more flawed or antagonistic to certain character types.

As for Miranda, I suspect part of the problem with her was the open-world nature of the game. You might do Jack's loyalty mission first. You might do it right before the Omega-4. It's very complicated to write mission-related character growth around a floating mission chronology. Doesn't excuse the failure, but it is at least understandable.

[Siansonea]

Abispa wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Abispa - not everything needs to be spot on realistic. Any sort of media requires a degree of suspension of disbelief.
The Asari are a homage/spoof of the Green Skinned Alien Babe that pops up in early Science Fiction with regularity, most notably Star Trek.

I can suspend my disbelief for that. And for the psychic mating thing too given that all Asari are "biotic".

What I cant accept is FemShep not counting as Bisexual or Lesbian if she is attracted to Asari.

Dear God! I would NEVER demand video games be totally realistic! Having to bandage a wound and spend weeks in rehab after ever battle would get tiring!

I LOVE the ME series, but that doesn't mean that I think they're perfect. I thought the Asari fit way too many sci-fi babe cliches, and I found the Miranda ass-cam view of the world over the top. But I would never want other players who love Liara and Miranda to think I don't respect their affection for different characters. Unlike the "no-recon" fans who rage in these forums, I do not believe I alone hold the sacred orthodox view of the ME universe and cast moral judgment on others. I know I merely have an opinion.

My initial reaction to the asari was "ugh, submissive alien space babes", but after learning that they're the most powerful species in the galaxy, and they're all female, well, then I realized that it was turning the Orion Slave Girl trope on its head. And it seems like the most formidable people in the game are all asari: Samara, Benezia, Morinth, Tela Vasir, Aria, the Asari Councilor. Even Liara, for all her bashful coquetteishness, was the most powerful squad member in the first game. If they were just cocktail waitresses and strippers, I would definitely have a different opinion of the asari.

[LiaraShepard]

Quething wrote...

I wouldn't say that Morrigan always won her arguments with Alistair. The "who betrayed Andraste" conversation springs to mind. They're actually a pretty much perfect pair, and it's the balance between them that makes both characters work. They're both huge hypocrites who like to lambast the Warden for deviating from their own unworkable, inconsistent standards, she thinks she knows way more than she actually does, and he needs to grow up. But you never have to say that because they say it to each other for you. Just when one of them starts to get completely obnoxious, the other will score a hit on them, make them look foolish, and engender either your approval of the winner or your sympathy for the loser, or both. It's an excellent balance that they completely failed to strike in DA2, which is I suspect why Fenris and Anders get so much more venom despite not being particularly more flawed or antagonistic to certain character types.

As for Miranda, I suspect part of the problem with her was the open-world nature of the game. You might do Jack's loyalty mission first. You might do it right before the Omega-4. It's very complicated to write mission-related character growth around a floating mission chronology. Doesn't excuse the failure, but it is at least understandable.

Alistar is a deep character, and he's friendly and nice...I've liked him, but I think he's whiny, too. He also wanted to have me the leader whereas Morrigan didn't care who lead the team, because she always paddled her own canoe.  She seemed to be more independend. The men in Bioware games are always very serving. Personally, I miss a loner wolf with that **** attitude who seems to be above all and everyone , just like Morrigan or Miranda, but who'd be also very intelligent and with a foreseeing intuitive ability. Maybe it's because there are a lot of guys like Alistar in some extent, but no male character who's like Miranda, in Bioware games. I actually thought, DA2 was more balanced than DA:Origins, because I always got the feeling that Morrigan is too overrepresentative compared to the other ones. But maybe it's just my thought. I always had the impression that the other characters had nothing on her.

Modifié par LiaraShepard, 27 juillet 2011 - 01:19 .

[Time4Tiddy]

Abispa wrote...

Yes, I know the whole mono-gendered aren't lesbians argument is lame. And I'm not saying the Asari can't be female, I'm saying they shouldn't fit the human ideal for beauty since human females have evolved to be attractive to human males who love the curves (to varying degrees throughout history, to be sure). Asari have no reason to have developed like blue human supermodels since they are supposed to be mate with almost anything, even non-humanoid lifeforms.

Frankly, you could continue this argument with the crazy notion that such extreme convergent evolution would happen on a galactic level.  I mean really, on 90% of life-bearing planets, two arms, two legs, two eyes, two sexes, emotions, verbal speech??  We've only seen a few and far between examples of intelligent non-humanoid life.

I don't think there is any doubt in anyone's mind that Asari weren't created as pure fanservice, at least initially.  I mean, every sleazy bar in the galaxy is full of half-naked, love you long time Asari.  You can read developer threads where Thane was designed to be the ultimate in sexy male alien to be a counter to Asari.  No one is really trying to deny they are female, not matter what official press releases might say.

[ScotGaymer]

Abispa wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Abispa - not everything needs to be spot on realistic. Any sort of media requires a degree of suspension of disbelief.
The Asari are a homage/spoof of the Green Skinned Alien Babe that pops up in early Science Fiction with regularity, most notably Star Trek.

I can suspend my disbelief for that. And for the psychic mating thing too given that all Asari are "biotic".

What I cant accept is FemShep not counting as Bisexual or Lesbian if she is attracted to Asari.

Dear God! I would NEVER demand video games be totally realistic! Having to bandage a wound and spend weeks in rehab after ever battle would get tiring!

I LOVE the ME series, but that doesn't mean that I think they're perfect. I thought the Asari fit way too many sci-fi babe cliches, and I found the Miranda ass-cam view of the world over the top. But I would never want other players who love Liara and Miranda to think I don't respect their affection for different characters. Unlike the "no-recon" fans who rage in these forums, I do not believe I alone hold the sacred orthodox view of the ME universe and cast moral judgment on others. I know I merely have an opinion.

You are complaining about the Asari being what they are. Orion Slave Girls.

So my point is that thats kind of entirely the point of the Asari. Its as Siansonea says; the Orion Slave GIrl trope turned on its head for comic effect.

Its fun.

[ElitePinecone]

Siansonea II wrote...
My initial reaction to the asari was "ugh, submissive alien space babes", but after learning that they're the most powerful species in the galaxy, and they're all female, well, then I realized that it was turning the Orion Slave Girl trope on its head. And it seems like the most formidable people in the game are all asari: Samara, Benezia, Morinth, Tela Vasir, Aria, the Asari Councilor. Even Liara, for all her bashful coquetteishness, was the most powerful squad member in the first game. If they were just cocktail waitresses and strippers, I would definitely have a different opinion of the asari.

I'm about eleven hours late, but I totally agree. 

There was great scope to make them slave-girl-space-babes in the great tradition of 70s (or was it 80s?) sci-fi, but Bioware seem to cleverly have turned this on its head and emphasised that they can look attractive to everybody while still being an incredibly intelligent, powerful and influential species. 

It's still somewhat frustrating that much of the art style highlights their, uh, assets (Benezia's armour, for one), but it's a huge improvement over the dudebro-catering female characters that make up a fair bit of the media. 

[bas_kon]

Hey guys, I was bored thus I started to read the asari entry of mass effect wiki, and it kinda freaked me out a little bit. I mean, from what I read, I think they are a bigger threat to the rest of the species even than reapers... I mean if they are so atractive, and they can mate with male and female of every other species resulting in asari kids without any of the genes of the "father", as the time goes by they could get wiped out every other species of the galaxy without the them even noticing it, couldn't they? lol. I think I'm just raving because of the heat wave here...

[demonic_cookie]

I agree about the men being less self-assured than women in Bioware games, and I don't think that's going to change anytime soon. The 'main demographic' for games are still men, and it seems to me that the gaming industry still thinks that the Straight Male Gamer will have his widdle man-feelings hurt by the presence of another alfa-male in the pack. After all, you can bone the alfa-female, but you actually have to measure up to the alfa-male, and if you can't... RAGE

[Siansonea]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
My initial reaction to the asari was "ugh, submissive alien space babes", but after learning that they're the most powerful species in the galaxy, and they're all female, well, then I realized that it was turning the Orion Slave Girl trope on its head. And it seems like the most formidable people in the game are all asari: Samara, Benezia, Morinth, Tela Vasir, Aria, the Asari Councilor. Even Liara, for all her bashful coquetteishness, was the most powerful squad member in the first game. If they were just cocktail waitresses and strippers, I would definitely have a different opinion of the asari.

I'm about eleven hours late, but I totally agree. 

There was great scope to make them slave-girl-space-babes in the great tradition of 70s (or was it 80s?) sci-fi, but Bioware seem to cleverly have turned this on its head and emphasised that they can look attractive to everybody while still being an incredibly intelligent, powerful and influential species. 

It's still somewhat frustrating that much of the art style highlights their, uh, assets (Benezia's armour, for one), but it's a huge improvement over the dudebro-catering female characters that make up a fair bit of the media. 

I'm actually one of the few who doesn't mind the asari propensity for cleavage. Especially since it seems to be most prevalent among very old asari (Benezia, Samara) who are anything but flirtatious vixens. I've always felt like asari would not have the same attitude toward nudity and cleavage that humans have, since they are a one-gendered species. And also because their reproductive process emphasizes tactile/nerve stimulation over physical interaction. Samara's cleavage probably doesn't have the same "hubba hubba!" connection for other asari, the way it does for male humans. And since asari Matriarchs came of age in a time when the only other species around that had breasts were the seldom-seen quarians, I doubt that the dress codes they grew up with had any special considerations as far as boob coverage goes. It's probably only since humanity arrived on the galactic scene that the asari realized that their traditional modes of dress cause any sort of consternation among other peoples. I doubt turians or salarians think twice about asari breasts in general, they seem to be much more focused on other aspects of the asari form, those that are most similar to their own species'. They probably see asari breasts and their weird five-fingered hands as somewhat alien and exotic, but not necessarily "attractive". Dat head fringe, though...

It's also clear that asari "hormones" or the equivalent work differently than humans. Asari Maidens act very much like prototypical young male humans, going out and exploring, trying new things, discovering their calling, having a lot of sex, and generally just living it up. Once an asari reaches the Matron stage, she begins to act more like a textbook young-ish female human, raising children, building a family and furthering her career. And once she becomes a Matriarch, she becomes more like an older human of either gender, secure in who she is, fully aware of her purpose, and capable of leading younger people toward their own paths of personal fulfillment and their own place in asari society. Or becoming a cranky old fussbudget.  So in a way, asari do have "gender" of a sort, but it's more related to age than to physical dimorphism. At least it's something that gives them a frame of reference for gender differences in other species.

And on-topic, uh, asari are female so, they're same-sex romance options, and, uh...

[Markun120]

 That's an interesting perspective, Siansonea (I just about called you Miranda ).  The Asari are fairly fascinating in that regard.  I suppose its true that they would not be as offended by showing off the goods as we are.  :innocent:

On topic, I pray that we will soon discover a forgotten male mono-gendered race.  

[dunfall14]

Hello everyone, I'm new here, but not to the mass effect series. When I heard that mass effect 3 will have same-sex romance I was over the moon, and that my one of my Male Shepard will finally be able to romance a male character.

[shepskisaac]

dunfall14 wrote...

Hello everyone, I'm new here, but not to the mass effect series. When I heard that mass effect 3 will have same-sex romance I was over the moon, and that my one of my Male Shepard will finally be able to romance a male character.

Hi sweetie! *waves* Welcome! Makes yourself comfy on Mama Siansonea's laps and join the discussion!

[bleetman]

Hey, I never got invited to sit on Siansonea's lap. What mockery of justice is this?

[Markun120]

dunfall14 wrote...

Hello everyone, I'm new here, but not to the mass effect series. When I heard that mass effect 3 will have same-sex romance I was over the moon, and that my one of my Male Shepard will finally be able to romance a male character.

Welcome. 

[SpEcIaLRyAn]

I am heterosexual myself but completely support this. I think that it is nice to see Bioware included s/s romance into the game. It says a lot about them as Developers and a company.

My one concern is them making previously straight characters bisexual or make them 'change teams' so to speak. If it is handled well story wise as to why they might be that I won't mind. But if it is something like DAII where every romance is bisexual then that they are just being lazy.

[Siansonea]

 There's room in my lap for all you youngun's.  Well, until I lose that last 5 pounds, anyway. 

[dunfall14]

Thank you everyone for the warm welcome, It's nice to feel welcome for once in life.

@IsaacShep - I am male *blushing* and very shy, but thank you for the welcome. (I am still working out my sexuality)

[shepskisaac]

bleetman wrote...

Hey, I never got invited to sit on Siansonea's lap. What mockery of justice is this?

I didn't either, I invited myself

dunfall14 wrote...

@IsaacShep - I am male *blushing* and very shy, but thank you for the welcome. (I am still working out my sexuality)

I'm a guy too

[TheMarshal]

SpEcIaLRyAn wrote...

I am heterosexual myself but completely support this. I think that it is nice to see Bioware included s/s romance into the game. It says a lot about them as Developers and a company.

My one concern is them making previously straight characters bisexual or make them 'change teams' so to speak. If it is handled well story wise as to why they might be that I won't mind. But if it is something like DAII where every romance is bisexual then that they are just being lazy.

Is the idea that the DAII romances were "lazy" really that pervasive?  I thought it was a great idea.  It's a romance system where 99% of the time your own actions have no influence on the outcome of the relationship (so long as you pick the right dialogue option).  Within such a system, I think limiting the ability to begin a romance with your favorite character on the basis of sexuality is unnecessary.

I would love to be able to romance Miranda as FemShep.  I wouldn't do it with my canon Shepard, but I'd sure as hell roll a new one up if she's available for s/s romances in ME3, because I love her as a character and I want to see the romance from the perspective of a Shepard who I also love.

[Ohpus]

dunfall14 wrote...

Hello everyone, I'm new here, but not to the mass effect series. When I heard that mass effect 3 will have same-sex romance I was over the moon, and that my one of my Male Shepard will finally be able to romance a male character.

Its a newbie! Quick grab the torches for the flame-war!

Seriously, welcome. Beware, people in topics like these tend to troll.

[SpEcIaLRyAn]

TheMarshal wrote...

SpEcIaLRyAn wrote...

I am heterosexual myself but completely support this. I think that it is nice to see Bioware included s/s romance into the game. It says a lot about them as Developers and a company.

My one concern is them making previously straight characters bisexual or make them 'change teams' so to speak. If it is handled well story wise as to why they might be that I won't mind. But if it is something like DAII where every romance is bisexual then that they are just being lazy.

Is the idea that the DAII romances were "lazy" really that pervasive?  I thought it was a great idea.  It's a romance system where 99% of the time your own actions have no influence on the outcome of the relationship (so long as you pick the right dialogue option).  Within such a system, I think limiting the ability to begin a romance with your favorite character on the basis of sexuality is unnecessary.

I would love to be able to romance Miranda as FemShep.  I wouldn't do it with my canon Shepard, but I'd sure as hell roll a new one up if she's available for s/s romances in ME3, because I love her as a character and I want to see the romance from the perspective of a Shepard who I also love.

Like I said I don't mind if the explain why they are that way story wise. If its something as stupid as that they just make them all bisexual for the sake of pleasing everybody then that is lazy. If they make it make sense within story bounds rather than just add it in randomly sort of like Anders than it will work for me. All in all I just don't want them to be lazy about explaining it that way I can express no interest in a LI that may be homosexual.

As I previously stated I support s/s romance in ME3. I just hope bioware isn't lazy about implementing old characters into the s/s romances where its one of those things like "You never asked"

Modifié par SpEcIaLRyAn, 27 juillet 2011 - 08:12 .

[Abispa]

@ Everyone who I was discussing the Asari with before I left to play DA2: Legacy -- I don't want to make it sound like I obsess over why the Asari don't do anything for me, other than Liara AFTER LotSB, but even then I think I "like" her because she seemed to be leaving behind the groupie status most of the females in Shepard's life fall into.

It does bug me, however, that the Asari are a race of "strong women" who are quick to assume the position whenever Shepard is around. It reminds me of the old Amazon legends from Greek mythology. Sure, they SEEMED bad ass, but in the end their rep was established to increase the prestige of the male Greek heroes who conquered and raped them.

They're blue chicks who can be bad ass or Playboy bunnies. I can enjoy their characters if I don't think about them too much, but then with a little time to meditate I could probably rip apart ANY of the ME characters and races, even my favorite Ashley.

Oh, and before I close, "HELLO NEWBIES!"

[Jimmy Fury]

SpEcIaLRyAn wrote...
Like I said I don't mind if the explain why they are that way story wise. If its something as stupid as that they just make them all bisexual for the sake of pleasing everybody then that is lazy. If they make it make sense within story bounds rather than just add it in randomly sort of like Anders than it will work for me. All in all I just don't want them to be lazy about explaining it that way I can express no interest in a LI that may be homosexual.

You might have to explain what's lazy about the implementation exactly instead of just saying it was lazy.
Because honestly putting in more romances for more players that required more dialogue to be written and recorded, more dialogue options to be coded and included in the game's conversation system, more cut scenes, more party banter, and more varied reacitons from NPCs... It's hard to understand how that can be considered lazy.

Then of course there's the bit i really don't understand which is:
1: Anders' sexuality was explained in the story so why is he the example of it being added randomly? If you talk to him about Karl he actually does explain that Circle mages have a tendency to be... adventurous in their sexuality due to the sheltered life they're forced to lead. They take whatever comfort they can get from whomever they can get it from.
2: Why does a character's sexuality even need to be explained? Unless there's some relevance to the plot (as in Anders' case) then what does it matter?