25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

Jimmy Fury wrote...
*snip*
There is no reason s/s options should have their sexuality justified or explained. Heterosexual characters never have to explain why they're straight. They just are. So why should s/s options have to do that?

Explain why they weren't romances sure. The same way Garrus and Tali explained why they never hit on Shep before.  Their sexuality doesn't need a cause or an explanation though because it's just who they are.

This is how I feel too. Nobody has to give a big song and dance about why they're bisexual. They're bisexual because they're bisexual. But if they were interested in Shepard before, that should be addressed. But if they're only now realizing that they're interested in Shepard, then no explanation is needed, in my opinion. After all, it's not a foregone conclusion that a bisexual character was automatically attracted to s/s Shepard in previous games, even if they were attracted to o/s Shepard. ManShep and FemShep are two different people, even though they occupy the same 'space'.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 27 juillet 2011 - 11:05 .

[Jimmy Fury]

Siansonea II wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...
*snip*
There is no reason s/s options should have their sexuality justified or explained. Heterosexual characters never have to explain why they're straight. They just are. So why should s/s options have to do that?

Explain why they weren't romances sure. The same way Garrus and Tali explained why they never hit on Shep before.  Their sexuality doesn't need a cause or an explanation though because it's just who they are.

This is how I feel too. Nobody has to give a big song and dance about why they're bisexual. They're bisexual because they're bisexual. But if they were interested in Shepard before, that should be addressed. But if they're only now realizing that they're interested in Shepard, then no explanation is needed, in my opinion. After all, it's not a foregone conclusion that a bisexual character was automatically attracted to s/s Shepard in previous games, even if they were attracted to o/s Shepard. ManShep and FemShep are two different people, even though they occupy the same 'space'.

Yeah pretty much that.

If Ash and Kaidan are s/s options then I think it should be treated just like any new o/s version would be.
The romance should come in 2 flavors. Returning and New not Straight and Gay.
One set of dialogue for imported existing VS/Shep relationships and one set for ALL new VS relationships whether it's s/s or o/s.

[SpEcIaLRyAn]

I think we're talking about two different things. You and Abispa are both talking about why they can be romanced now. You want the game to explain why they weren't s/s options before.
What I was talking about was their sexuality itself. An explanation for why they're bi. Look at the sentence in the original post that I've bolded. That isn't asking for the difference between games to be explained that's asking for the sexuality to be explained.
And I wasn't commending the Anders explanation. I hated it.
There is no reason s/s options should have their sexuality justified or explained. Heterosexual characters never have to explain why they're straight. They just are. So why should s/s options have to do that?

Explain why they weren't romances sure. The same way Garrus and Tali explained why they never hit on Shep before.  Their sexuality doesn't need a cause or an explanation though because it's just who they are.
[/quote]



Sorry ^ I meant to quote you. JimmyFury.

I agree with you. A character doesn't have to explain to me why they are gay or why they are bi or straight. If they are a homosexual a brief or perhaps a subtle hint that they are is enough. I'm not asking that they explain why they are a homosexual to me as it really isn't any of my buisness unless they choose to tell me. I just want them to handle the fact that they can now be romanced well. If they say something like 'you never asking' then all would be able say is blame Bioware for not giving the option not me. The Anders thing while I do believe has some merit, him being bisexual and all,  it just doesn't do it for me. It is sort of what Abispa said. Its a question of 'why now' and 'why not before'. That is if they choose to have these characters return as s/s romances.

Modifié par SpEcIaLRyAn, 27 juillet 2011 - 11:21 .

[shepskisaac]

Augoeides wrote...

I think it's about the questions: 'why not before' and 'why now?'

Obviously we can say, well Kaidan couldn't/didn't romance MShep in ME1 because that was cut content, but that would be applying a meta-game perspective to an in-game reality which just doesn't work. So if Kaidan does appear as a Bi LI in ME3, there is the question that needs to be answered by Kaidan if the player chooses to engage Kaidan as an LI 'why not and why not before?' and if the answer is anything along the lines of: "You didn't ask" I would be miffed, because that, to me, would be a sucker punch from the devs because the character is calling out our Shep on not approaching him in that manner when the option wasn't available.

The best part? Kaidan actually has his answer written already, in ME1 at that. He thinks Shepard is straight. He admits it to FemShep in ME1 that he didn't realize she wasn't straight (triangle scene with FemShep/Kaidan/Liara). He assumes the same thing about ManShep (as proven when he says he thinks ManShep would've liked Rahna). But with the obvious gender difference, it's only FemShep that he thinks he has a chance with since straight women like men, that's why he flirts with her. Straight ManShep (in his assumption) doesn't like men, that's why he doesn't flirt with him. And ManShep doesn't have an option to tell Kaidan that he's gay anyway (unlike FemShep can do that by romancing Liara). So since Kaidan keeps thinking ManShep is straight, it's not only logical he wouldn't force himself on ManShep but also go very well with Kaidan's character, personality, culture and the way he approaches people. Kaidan doesn't throw himself on someone he think isn't interested in him.

tl;dr version: Kaidan assumed Shep was straight (actual in-game fact from ME1), that's why he didn't hit on him.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 27 juillet 2011 - 11:23 .

[Augoeides]

IsaacShep wrote...

Augoeides wrote...

I think it's about the questions: 'why not before' and 'why now?'

Obviously we can say, well Kaidan couldn't/didn't romance MShep in ME1 because that was cut content, but that would be applying a meta-game perspective to an in-game reality which just doesn't work. So if Kaidan does appear as a Bi LI in ME3, there is the question that needs to be answered by Kaidan if the player chooses to engage Kaidan as an LI 'why not and why not before?' and if the answer is anything along the lines of: "You didn't ask" I would be miffed, because that, to me, would be a sucker punch from the devs because the character is calling out our Shep on not approaching him in that manner when the option wasn't available.

The best part? Kaidan actually has his answer written already, in ME1 at that. He thinks Shepard is straight. He admits it to FemShep in ME1 that he didn't realize she wasn't straight (triangle scene with FemShep/Kaidan/Liara). He assumes the same thing about ManShep (as proven when he says he thinks ManShep would've liked Rahna). But with the obvious gender difference, it's only FemShep that he thinks he has a chance with since straight women like men. Straight ManShep (in his assumption) doesn't like men. And ManShep doesn't have an option to tell Kaidan that he's gay anyway (unlike FemShep can do that by romancing Liara). So since Kaidan keeps thinking ManShep is straight, it's not only logical he wouldn't force himself on ManShep but also go very well with Kaidan's character, personality, culture and the way he approaches people. Kaidan doesn't throw himself on someone he think isn't interested in him.

I suddenly feel like Merrill when she first starts living in Kirkwall. So much background info I don't know.

I'll just be over here playing with some twine and writing some fanfiction.

Modifié par Augoeides, 27 juillet 2011 - 11:23 .

[KawaiiKatie]

Whoa, am I the only one who wants homosexual-unique dialogue from Kaidan?

I don't want Kaidan to treat me like a femShep who didn't bother to romance him in ME1. I want him to treat me like manShep. I want him to acknowledge that we're both men, and I honestly wouldn't mind if he admitted that my gender was what stopped us from being a couple until now.

No, he doesn't have to go into a long and involved backstory about his bisexuality, but some sort of acknowledgement of the nature of our relationship would be nice. I absolutely do not want manShep and Kaidan's ME3 relationship to be identical to a "new" relationship between Kaidan and femShep.

[shepskisaac]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

I absolutely do not want manShep and Kaidan's ME3 relationship to be identical to a "new" relationship between Kaidan and femShep.

Doubt there will be one anyway. IMO the game will assume if you could, but didn't romance someone, that means you weren't interested and turned that person down. Think about it. If they implement new 'fresh' romance for FemShep/Kaidan, they would ahve to do the same for Ash, Liara, Garrus, Tali and maybe more characters. They already have 9 romances to continue, + various combinations of cheating scene, + romances with entirely new characters.

[Jimmy Fury]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Whoa, am I the only one who wants homosexual-unique dialogue from Kaidan?

I don't want Kaidan to treat me like a femShep who didn't bother to romance him in ME1. I want him to treat me like manShep. I want him to acknowledge that we're both men, and I honestly wouldn't mind if he admitted that my gender was what stopped us from being a couple until now.

No, he doesn't have to go into a long and involved backstory about his bisexuality, but some sort of acknowledgement of the nature of our relationship would be nice. I absolutely do not want manShep and Kaidan's ME3 relationship to be identical to a "new" relationship between Kaidan and femShep.

No you're definitely not the only one. As far as I've seen I'm the only person that doesn't want that. I do want it to be exactly the same because then it's universal. Then the relationship is between the character and Shepard not the character and Shepard's Genitals.

ETA: If the s/s options are Ash and Kaidan then there's already more than one version of the romance. That's unavoidable.
Making 3 different romances out of it is too much and enters the whole "seperate but equal" territory.

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 27 juillet 2011 - 11:40 .

[shepskisaac]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

No you're definitely not the only one. As far as I've seen I'm the only person that doesn't want that. I do want it to be exactly the same because then it's universal. Then the relationship is between the character and Shepard not the character and Shepard's Genitals.

Well, my ManShep's genitals Kaidan will be playing with are different then FemShep's

[KawaiiKatie]

Nyoka wrote...

@KawaiiKatie: that's good, as long as it's limited and doesn't color the whole romance. Something like when Femshep asks Liara if she wants a relationship with her even though they're both women.

True, I'd like to see something where male Shepard can outright state, "I'm interested in men" or ask Kaidan, "I didn't realize that you were interested in men," but ultimately I hope for more distinction between a gay relationship with Kaidan and a straight one. The two relationships are fundalmentally different (especially since Kaidan showed explicit interest in female Shepard in ME1, but not male Shepard) and the sexual nature of both relationships should be explored--and they should be distinct experiences.

My reason for this is if they make two different romances, I will inevitably like one better than the other, and if the better one is the Manshep one who I don't play because I don't like his voice (I tried), it'll make me sad.

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. Hold up now. The open achnowledgement and distinction of manShep and Kaidan's relationship should be limited because it'll make femShep players sad?

... <_<

I've been unable to have a romance in ME3 to my liking (aka: homosexual) with male Shepard and yeah, that makes me sad. In fact, I wanted to romance Kaidan so bad that I actually played a femShep and yeah, that made me sad. But I don't campaign for more restricted content for femShep to make things better for manShep by comparison.

Acknowledge the sex of Shepard, yes; make the sex of Shepard the whole point of the romance, no.

If femShep is single in ME3, her relationship with Kaidan in ME3 should be inherently different than that of Kaidan and manShep. I doubt that it will be radically different, but I still hope that there is a lot of unique dialogue between Kaidan and male Shepard, if Kaidan is bisexual. I've waited a very long time for Shepard to be openly gay in Mass Effect, and I really hope that the Bioware writers choose to use ME3 to explore Kaidan and manShep's relationship in-depth, including their previously-unstated sexuality.

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 27 juillet 2011 - 11:46 .

[Cuddlezarro]

IsaacShep wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...

No you're definitely not the only one. As far as I've seen I'm the only person that doesn't want that. I do want it to be exactly the same because then it's universal. Then the relationship is between the character and Shepard not the character and Shepard's Genitals.

Well, my ManShep's genitals Kaidan will be playing with are different then FemShep's

indeed plus its annoying to have some one talk to you like they would a women but all the female pronouns are replaced with male ones

it just screams laziness to me

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 27 juillet 2011 - 11:48 .

[TheMarshal]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Whoa, am I the only one who wants homosexual-unique dialogue from Kaidan?

I don't want Kaidan to treat me like a femShep who didn't bother to romance him in ME1. I want him to treat me like manShep. I want him to acknowledge that we're both men, and I honestly wouldn't mind if he admitted that my gender was what stopped us from being a couple until now.

No, he doesn't have to go into a long and involved backstory about his bisexuality, but some sort of acknowledgement of the nature of our relationship would be nice. I absolutely do not want manShep and Kaidan's ME3 relationship to be identical to a "new" relationship between Kaidan and femShep.

I'm of two minds about having differences between gay and straight romances with the same LI.  On the one hand, it would feel more realistic (to me) to acknowledge Shepard's gender.  On the other hand, I don't think that they could adequately do "separate but equal" romances for both genders.

[Jimmy Fury]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...

No you're definitely not the only one. As far as I've seen I'm the only person that doesn't want that. I do want it to be exactly the same because then it's universal. Then the relationship is between the character and Shepard not the character and Shepard's Genitals.

Well, my ManShep's genitals Kaidan will be playing with are different then FemShep's

indeed plus its annoying to have some one talk to you like they would a women but all the female pronouns are replaced with male ones

it just screams laziness to me

Why is it that if the romance is the same then M!Shep is being treated like a woman.
Why does nobody ever think it could be done for M!Shep then converted for F!Shep.

Edit: I just don't comprehend the "treated like a woman" thing. How does one treat someone like a woman. Why is FemShep being treated so differently from her male counterpart? Does F!Shep become some helpless princess who needs to be saved or is she a badass space marine who can headbutt a Krogan and kill a Reaper? Why should Kaidan's role in the relationship depend on Shepard's sex.

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 28 juillet 2011 - 12:04 .

[KawaiiKatie]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

indeed plus its annoying to have some one talk to you like they would a women but all the female pronouns are replaced with male ones

That was one of the things I loved about the homosexual relationships in DA2--they were distinct from the heterosexual varients! Sometimes the dialogue simply swapped the pronouns, "she" for "he," but when the conversation called for it, you got completely unique dialogue.

Like Varric's, "Did Hawke sweep you off your feet? I assume he did the sweeping because he's taller. Would've been awkward otherwise." Or Gamlen's... rather uninformed comments about homosexuality. I really appreciated those, because it made me feel like the writers took the time and effort to include homosexuality, and not just lazily swap pronouns and call it done.

[shepskisaac]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

indeed plus its annoying to have some one talk to you like they would a women but all the female pronouns are replaced with male ones

it just screams laziness to me

Yup. It is just a fact two guys will romance each other at least a bit differently than when a guy and a girl, or two women.

[Cuddlezarro]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...

No you're definitely not the only one. As far as I've seen I'm the only person that doesn't want that. I do want it to be exactly the same because then it's universal. Then the relationship is between the character and Shepard not the character and Shepard's Genitals.

Well, my ManShep's genitals Kaidan will be playing with are different then FemShep's

indeed plus its annoying to have some one talk to you like they would a women but all the female pronouns are replaced with male ones

it just screams laziness to me

Why is it that if the romance is the same then M!Shep is being treated like a woman.
Why does nobody ever think it could be done for M!Shep then converted for F!Shep.

and then you just have the opposite the female being treated like a male

plus Kaidans romance will most likley be written for females first any ways considering he was romancable for femsheps since the first game

interactions between 2 guys/women is gonna be different from interactions between 1 guy 1 girl atleast irl it is

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 28 juillet 2011 - 12:04 .

[KawaiiKatie]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Why is it that if the romance is the same then M!Shep is being treated like a woman.
Why does nobody ever think it could be done for M!Shep then converted for F!Shep.

Because Kaidan is currently restricted to female Shepard. He was always going to be a romance option for female Shepards in Mass Effect 3, long before same-sex romances were even considered. Simply swapping "she" for "he" in Kaidan's romantic dialogue will be a clear retrofit of a heterosexual relationship.

So if Kaidan's romance with male Shepard in ME3 is identical to that of female Shepard, it will not feel like equal treatment. Not to me. Homosexual male Shepard very obviously did not figure into any of the writers' thoughts when they made Mass Effect 1 and 2, and if they ignore him in ME3 by making his homosexual romances an utterly indistinct experience from female Shepard's heterosexual romances, I will be sorely disappointed.

[Jimmy Fury]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Why is it that if the romance is the same then M!Shep is being treated like a woman.
Why does nobody ever think it could be done for M!Shep then converted for F!Shep.

Because Kaidan is currently restricted to female Shepard. He was always going to be a romance option for female Shepards in Mass Effect 3, long before same-sex romances were even considered. Simply swapping "she" for "he" in Kaidan's romantic dialogue will be a clear retrofit of a heterosexual relationship.

So if Kaidan's romance with male Shepard in ME3 is identical to that of female Shepard, it will not feel like equal treatment. Not to me. Homosexual male Shepard very obviously did not figure into any of the writers' thoughts when they made Mass Effect 1 and 2, and if they ignore him in ME3 by making his homosexual romances an utterly indistinct experience from female Shepard's heterosexual romances, I will be sorely disappointed.

Not to you no. It would to me.
We'll never agree on this, of that I'm quite certain.
But to me the exact opposite of equality is:
1: Imported Romance
2: New Romance
3: Gay Romance

[AngelicMachinery]

I’m not entirely sure why people are demanding that the S/S romance should be different based on sex. If anything, I find that laughable. I’ve never understood why people suggest relationships between the various genders. You don’t alter the way that you react with each other because of different parts, you react on each others personality. The thing is, Sheploo and Femme-shep have a similar personality as such I can’t see the relationship dynamics too be that particularly different between the genders.

The reason that the relationships SHOULD be different is because they are starting at different points. Femmeshep/Kaidan have previously had a relationship together while Sheploo/Kaidan’s relationship is just beginning.

[KawaiiKatie]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

We'll never agree on this, of that I'm quite certain.
But to me the exact opposite of equality is:
1: Imported Romance
2: New Romance
3: Gay Romance

And to me, the exact opposite of equality is being treated like an afterthought. Like Bioware said to themselves, "Oh, we have to include gay male Shepard, now? Eh, just swap the heterosexual femShep model with manShep. That's good enough."

Gay males =/= Straight females. I was homosexual unique content, not ill-disguised heterosexual content.

I want homosexual males be equally considered when the Mass Effect writers are crafting their romances. I don't want them to simply retrofit Kaidan's heterosexual romance with opposite pronouns and call it done. I want them to think, "What would a player who has been waiting years to be represented in the Mass Effect series want out of a romance?" I don't want them to just assume that the homosexual male Shepard will want every little detail to be completely and utterly indentical to heterosexual female Shepard, because that's not true.

[shepskisaac]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I’m not entirely sure why people are demanding that the S/S romance should be different based on sex. If anything, I find that laughable. I’ve never understood why people suggest relationships between the various genders. You don’t alter the way that you react with each other because of different parts, you react on each others personality.

But men and women do differ sexually. And different 'parts' are at its source. It's really part of the nature. When we interact friendship-wise, then there's no reason to make conversations different because there's no sexuality involved (when we discuss movies with friends for example). But in romantic relations/flirting, sexuality plays a role hence why it's no unexpected 2 guys romancing each other will be at least a bit different than 2 women or a man and a woman romance/flirting each other.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 28 juillet 2011 - 12:38 .

[James2912]

 Somebody write something funny, I've had a horrible day of taking angry phone calls for corporate america. 

[who would know]

The dynamic in M/M is different from M/F is different from F/F. You can't just swap pronouns and call it day. I'd be pissed.