25715 replies to this topic

[khevan]

Siansonea II wrote...

@Khevan: I agree that quality is the most important consideration at this point, but I'd say that applies to ALL romances, existing and new, same-sex or otherwise.

This is in response to all who've said that this is an issue with all romances, not just  you.

I agree in principle.  Some of the romances in ME1 were unclear as to when you were actively romancing a character or trying to be friendly.  I got the Liara/VS confrontation scene a coupla times before I figured out where that "line" is.   ME2 handled that a little better, and I hope ME3 is better still.

But s/s options for previous LI's is a slightly different issue, in my opinion.  Like I said, in my personal headcanon, most LI's are heterosexual.  Jack certainly has a legitimate case for being opened up.  I have no clue why she wasn't a bi-option in ME2.  Tali could be argued, although I personally didn't see any romantic/sexual innuendo with femShep, I can understand how it could be seen that way from a certain conversation. 

But for the rest of them, especially the VS, my Shepards have interacted with them, and relate to them, as heterosexuals.  And before I get the label homophobe, this is not a negative thing.  It's like as a FemShep, I related to Ash as a woman.  It's who she is.  Kaidan the same.  To me, both of them "seem to be" heterosexuals.  If they're opened up in ME3, yes, that mental picture of them would change, as it would IRL with a friend who just came out of the closet.  My only issue is that such a "coming out" scenario make sense, and not just something cobbled together to give fans what they want.

In and of itself, fanservice isn't a bad thing, but the story itself should make sense too.  Tali and Garrus skirted the line of fanservice for fanservice sake, but the way their romances were handled made sense.  Shepard initiated the flirting.  And I'm not advocating "hidden" s/s options if you don't flirt with them.  If they're gay, they're gay, and they should be able to be open about it without me going "EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!" (SO not my reaction, btw.)  I just want it to be done well, without it feeling tacked on, since to me they've been heterosexuals, sometimes LI's for various Shepards, sometimes comrades-in-arms.  It's been, what, 4 years since ME1 came out?  That's a long time to have a mental picture of a character, and then have to change how you think about that character. 

Again, this is a bit too rambling, but I can't seem to organize my thoughts today.  I agree that ALL romance options should be handled well, but if previous LI's are opened up to s/s romances, I think it's *extra* true for them.

Again, just my opinion.

[jlb524]

TommyServo wrote...

Just out of curiousity...

Is this a spoiler forum? One strike against the past threads was that they were generally posted in the general discussion areas, and discussion was constrained by the "no spoiler" rules (not that it necessarily stopped most people, myself included).

I think for really good, in-depth discussion, we should be able to freely delve into story and character spoilers from the first two games. Right now there's no disclaimer either way.

I would imagine it is a spoiler forum...all the other character threads will surely discuss spoilers from the other 2 games.

[Siansonea]

TommyServo wrote...

Just out of curiousity...

Is this a spoiler forum? One strike against the past threads was that they were generally posted in the general discussion areas, and discussion was constrained by the "no spoiler" rules (not that it necessarily stopped most people, myself included).

I think for really good, in-depth discussion, we should be able to freely delve into story and character spoilers from the first two games. Right now there's no disclaimer either way.

Hmmm, I dunno. I think ME1 and ME2 spoilers are probably okay and don't even need to be flagged, but we should tread lightly regarding ME3 spoilers regardless. Even in a spoiler-allowed forum, it's good etiquette to flag spoilers as many people would like to avoid them.

[Lenimph]

SennenScale wrote...

Dunno if this is what they meant, but it may be relevant.

Yep that's what I meant.   Pratically screams James Vegas wants to play with Shepard big guns. 

[United Servo Academy Choir]

Siansonea II wrote...

Hmmm, I dunno. I think ME1 and ME2 spoilers are probably okay and don't even need to be flagged, but we should tread lightly regarding ME3 spoilers regardless. Even in a spoiler-allowed forum, it's good etiquette to flag spoilers as many people would like to avoid them.

Might want to stick it in the title if there's room.

It's only on my mind because I'm just now finishing up my first playthrough of DA:O (yeah, I know, two years late) and I stumbled on some pretty destructive endgame stuff in a no spoiler topic. I got burned bad.

[jlb524]

khevan wrote...

But s/s options for previous LI's is a slightly different issue, in my opinion.  Like I said, in my personal headcanon, most LI's are heterosexual.  Jack certainly has a legitimate case for being opened up.  I have no clue why she wasn't a bi-option in ME2.  Tali could be argued, although I personally didn't see any romantic/sexual innuendo with femShep, I can understand how it could be seen that way from a certain conversation. 

But for the rest of them, especially the VS, my Shepards have interacted with them, and relate to them, as heterosexuals.  And before I get the label homophobe, this is not a negative thing.  It's like as a FemShep, I related to Ash as a woman.  It's who she is.  Kaidan the same.  To me, both of them "seem to be" heterosexuals.  If they're opened up in ME3, yes, that mental picture of them would change, as it would IRL with a friend who just came out of the closet.  My only issue is that such a "coming out" scenario make sense, and not just something cobbled together to give fans what they want.

That's why I hope all romances remain player iniated.  If you want to headcanon Ashley as heterosexual and avoid a romance between her and FemShep, that's fine....don't opt to initiate it.  I do similar things in my headcanon with the male LIs and my FemShep...in my ME universe, neither Thane or Garrus are interested in human women at all and they remain strictly platonic friends in my playthroughs....Jacob just isn't interested in my FemShep...she's not his type (I never even think about what his orientation is, as I don't care).  I also pretend Tali has a raging crush on my FemShep even though she's not even an option.

Thus, I'd hope you'd never  have to see the 'coming out' thing unless you do want to pursue an s/s romance with Ash/Kaidan, in which then they'd have to write that in somehow. 

[Siansonea]

khevan wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

@Khevan: I agree that quality is the most important consideration at this point, but I'd say that applies to ALL romances, existing and new, same-sex or otherwise.

This is in response to all who've said that this is an issue with all romances, not just  you.

I agree in principle.  Some of the romances in ME1 were unclear as to when you were actively romancing a character or trying to be friendly.  I got the Liara/VS confrontation scene a coupla times before I figured out where that "line" is.   ME2 handled that a little better, and I hope ME3 is better still.

But s/s options for previous LI's is a slightly different issue, in my opinion.  Like I said, in my personal headcanon, most LI's are heterosexual.  Jack certainly has a legitimate case for being opened up.  I have no clue why she wasn't a bi-option in ME2.  Tali could be argued, although I personally didn't see any romantic/sexual innuendo with femShep, I can understand how it could be seen that way from a certain conversation. 

But for the rest of them, especially the VS, my Shepards have interacted with them, and relate to them, as heterosexuals.  And before I get the label homophobe, this is not a negative thing.  It's like as a FemShep, I related to Ash as a woman.  It's who she is.  Kaidan the same.  To me, both of them "seem to be" heterosexuals.  If they're opened up in ME3, yes, that mental picture of them would change, as it would IRL with a friend who just came out of the closet.  My only issue is that such a "coming out" scenario make sense, and not just something cobbled together to give fans what they want.

In and of itself, fanservice isn't a bad thing, but the story itself should make sense too.  Tali and Garrus skirted the line of fanservice for fanservice sake, but the way their romances were handled made sense.  Shepard initiated the flirting.  And I'm not advocating "hidden" s/s options if you don't flirt with them.  If they're gay, they're gay, and they should be able to be open about it without me going "EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!" (SO not my reaction, btw.)  I just want it to be done well, without it feeling tacked on, since to me they've been heterosexuals, sometimes LI's for various Shepards, sometimes comrades-in-arms.  It's been, what, 4 years since ME1 came out?  That's a long time to have a mental picture of a character, and then have to change how you think about that character. 

Again, this is a bit too rambling, but I can't seem to organize my thoughts today.  I agree that ALL romance options should be handled well, but if previous LI's are opened up to s/s romances, I think it's *extra* true for them.

Again, just my opinion.

I understand your concerns, but I will add that any existing character that is opened up to same-sex romance would then be a bisexual character, not a gay character, and therein lies a significant difference. A bisexual is a person attracted to both sexes, and that is a fundamentally different personality dynamic than a person who is attracted exclusively to their own sex. A character coming out as bisexual is not the same thing as coming out as gay. And in the instance of an existing romance storyline, the character may not even realize they are bisexual if Shepard is the opposite sex. Often in real life, bisexual people don't realize they are bisexual until they meet "the right person", they just assume they are heterosexual because up to that point they've only romanced opposite sex people. 

But again, this thread isn't about character continuity per se, we all agree that all types of character continuity need to be handled with care, not just with respect to romance content.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Siansonea II wrote...

I understand your concerns, but I will add that any existing character that is opened up to same-sex romance would then be a bisexual character, not a gay character, and therein lies a significant difference. A bisexual is a person attracted to both sexes, and that is a fundamentally different personality dynamic than a person who is attracted exclusively to their own sex. A character coming out as bisexual is not the same thing as coming out as gay. And in the instance of an existing romance storyline, the character may not even realize they are bisexual if Shepard is the opposite sex. Often in real life, bisexual people don't realize they are bisexual until they meet "the right person", they just assume they are heterosexual because up to that point they've only romanced opposite sex people. 

But again, this thread isn't about character continuity per se, we all agree that all types of character continuity need to be handled with care, not just with respect to romance content.

Heck, it's possible for Shepard to be straight in ME1 and 2, then suddenly be romanced by a man in ME3, so...

[Siansonea]

Lenimph wrote...

SennenScale wrote...

Dunno if this is what they meant, but it may be relevant.

Yep that's what I meant.   Pratically screams James Vegas wants to play with Shepard big guns. 

For the sake of clarity in this thread, I'll quote the source in text:

Casey Hudson's May 16 Tweet:

Some game sites saying "previously straight chars now available for both m&f chars" not necessarily true. Will have some new LI's in #ME3

Naturally, this should have immediately put to rest the firestorm of conflict that erupted over existing characters as s/s LIs, but as we all know, it didn't. I also think this is probably a reference to James Vega, but it's possible CHud is referring to other characters in this Tweet. In any case, it certainly doesn't shed any light on the identity of the female s/s human character (I assume the s/s LIs will include humans....)

[Erani]

Yey! S/S in ME3 WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE 
Incoherent post, I know. heh but I iz so happy!

I'd love to see Kaidan or Joker as m/m LI and Miranda or Tali as f/f (+ beloved Liara of course).

[Siansonea]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

I understand your concerns, but I will add that any existing character that is opened up to same-sex romance would then be a bisexual character, not a gay character, and therein lies a significant difference. A bisexual is a person attracted to both sexes, and that is a fundamentally different personality dynamic than a person who is attracted exclusively to their own sex. A character coming out as bisexual is not the same thing as coming out as gay. And in the instance of an existing romance storyline, the character may not even realize they are bisexual if Shepard is the opposite sex. Often in real life, bisexual people don't realize they are bisexual until they meet "the right person", they just assume they are heterosexual because up to that point they've only romanced opposite sex people. 

But again, this thread isn't about character continuity per se, we all agree that all types of character continuity need to be handled with care, not just with respect to romance content.

Heck, it's possible for Shepard to be straight in ME1 and 2, then suddenly be romanced by a man in ME3, so...

That's true, and that's a perfectly reasonable way to role-play Shepard. I may do that myself with one or more of my Shepards, depending on the story arc of each of the potential LIs. I have very definite personalities in my head about my six Shepards, and if their existing LI goes off the rails somehow, then I'd consider switching them to another LI, and if the most likely candidate is the same sex as Shepard, well, then that Shepard just discovered something about himself/herself. Fun role-playing opportunity, to be sure. 

[Siansonea]

TommyServo wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Hmmm, I dunno. I think ME1 and ME2 spoilers are probably okay and don't even need to be flagged, but we should tread lightly regarding ME3 spoilers regardless. Even in a spoiler-allowed forum, it's good etiquette to flag spoilers as many people would like to avoid them.

Might want to stick it in the title if there's room.

It's only on my mind because I'm just now finishing up my first playthrough of DA:O (yeah, I know, two years late) and I stumbled on some pretty destructive endgame stuff in a no spoiler topic. I got burned bad.

I edited the thread title and the OP. 

[catabuca]

I'm so very happy the ME team are including s/s romance in the final installment of the trilogy. And regardless of whether i get to see my preferred options implemented or not, I'll be happy for those fans who do get what they want.

[khevan]

Siansonea II wrote...

I understand your concerns, but I will add that any existing character that is opened up to same-sex romance would then be a bisexual character, not a gay character, and therein lies a significant difference. A bisexual is a person attracted to both sexes, and that is a fundamentally different personality dynamic than a person who is attracted exclusively to their own sex. A character coming out as bisexual is not the same thing as coming out as gay. And in the instance of an existing romance storyline, the character may not even realize they are bisexual if Shepard is the opposite sex. Often in real life, bisexual people don't realize they are bisexual until they meet "the right person", they just assume they are heterosexual because up to that point they've only romanced opposite sex people. 

But again, this thread isn't about character continuity per se, we all agree that all types of character continuity need to be handled with care, not just with respect to romance content.

Yanno...you've got a point.  My issue has mainly been with the VS, if you couldn't tell.  The best way I could mentally swing a bi VS is that the VS only really realized their feelings for Shep somewhere between Ilos and the start of ME2...but didn't get a chance to say anything (for obvious reasons.)  And then, Horizon, where personal relationships weren't exactly the best topic for discussion, especially for the VS to reveal their feelings.  For "straight" VS/Shep relations, Horizon should have had better romance-related conversation, but it would be out of place for the VS to "open themselves up" to Shep.  Thus, it'd be best to wait 'til ME3...and the conversation could go something like "I've felt this way for years, but I never got a chance to tell you...and then you (spoiler) and I never thought I'd get the chance again.  Then Horizon...what was I supposed to think?  But now..."  blah blah blah.

But to your comments above, I agree with the whole bi-not-gay thing.  Sometimes I accidentally use the wrong word, especially when my thoughts are as incoherent as they seem to be today.  Apologies.  But in any case, if it's done well, something like what I just wrote above (but better, since the writers are professionals, and I...well, ain't.) I would have no issue.  I won't repeat myself ad nauseum about not wanting it to be poorly done.

[The Uncanny]

catabuca wrote...

I'm so very happy the ME team are including s/s romance in the final installment of the trilogy. And regardless of whether i get to see my preferred options implemented or not, I'll be happy for those fans who do get what they want.

Agreed. At least my reasonable, rational side agrees. My inner selfish child hops up and down and demands that she gets what she wants! 

[shepskisaac]

khevan wrote...
But for the rest of them, especially the VS, my Shepards have interacted with them, and relate to them, as heterosexuals.  And before I get the label homophobe, this is not a negative thing.  It's like as a FemShep, I related to Ash as a woman.  It's who she is.  Kaidan the same.  To me, both of them "seem to be" heterosexuals.

The point is though, that it really is just your (and everyone else too) assumption what their exact sexual orientation is. They never say it themselves. Furthermore, when you interacted with Ashely as FemShep, it was all on friendship level. Since you weren't romantically interested in them, their romantic life doesn't really change what you liked them for. The parts of their personality you were interested and related to were on the friendship level. You mentioned real life, it's the same. After the initial surprise, people realize their friends that 'came out' are exactly the same persons. In the friendship relation, nothing changes since sexuality/romance is not part of a friendship.

[Bolboreta]

Siansonea II wrote...

khevan wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

@Khevan: I agree that quality is the most important consideration at this point, but I'd say that applies to ALL romances, existing and new, same-sex or otherwise.

This is in response to all who've said that this is an issue with all romances, not just  you.

I agree in principle.  Some of the romances in ME1 were unclear as to when you were actively romancing a character or trying to be friendly.  I got the Liara/VS confrontation scene a coupla times before I figured out where that "line" is.   ME2 handled that a little better, and I hope ME3 is better still.

But s/s options for previous LI's is a slightly different issue, in my opinion.  Like I said, in my personal headcanon, most LI's are heterosexual.  Jack certainly has a legitimate case for being opened up.  I have no clue why she wasn't a bi-option in ME2.  Tali could be argued, although I personally didn't see any romantic/sexual innuendo with femShep, I can understand how it could be seen that way from a certain conversation. 

But for the rest of them, especially the VS, my Shepards have interacted with them, and relate to them, as heterosexuals.  And before I get the label homophobe, this is not a negative thing.  It's like as a FemShep, I related to Ash as a woman.  It's who she is.  Kaidan the same.  To me, both of them "seem to be" heterosexuals.  If they're opened up in ME3, yes, that mental picture of them would change, as it would IRL with a friend who just came out of the closet.  My only issue is that such a "coming out" scenario make sense, and not just something cobbled together to give fans what they want.

In and of itself, fanservice isn't a bad thing, but the story itself should make sense too.  Tali and Garrus skirted the line of fanservice for fanservice sake, but the way their romances were handled made sense.  Shepard initiated the flirting.  And I'm not advocating "hidden" s/s options if you don't flirt with them.  If they're gay, they're gay, and they should be able to be open about it without me going "EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!" (SO not my reaction, btw.)  I just want it to be done well, without it feeling tacked on, since to me they've been heterosexuals, sometimes LI's for various Shepards, sometimes comrades-in-arms.  It's been, what, 4 years since ME1 came out?  That's a long time to have a mental picture of a character, and then have to change how you think about that character. 

Again, this is a bit too rambling, but I can't seem to organize my thoughts today.  I agree that ALL romance options should be handled well, but if previous LI's are opened up to s/s romances, I think it's *extra* true for them.

Again, just my opinion.

I understand your concerns, but I will add that any existing character that is opened up to same-sex romance would then be a bisexual character, not a gay character, and therein lies a significant difference. A bisexual is a person attracted to both sexes, and that is a fundamentally different personality dynamic than a person who is attracted exclusively to their own sex. A character coming out as bisexual is not the same thing as coming out as gay. And in the instance of an existing romance storyline, the character may not even realize they are bisexual if Shepard is the opposite sex. Often in real life, bisexual people don't realize they are bisexual until they meet "the right person", they just assume they are heterosexual because up to that point they've only romanced opposite sex people. 

But again, this thread isn't about character continuity per se, we all agree that all types of character continuity need to be handled with care, not just with respect to romance content.

I agree mostly with Khevan. I want same sex romances (for both sexs; in ME2 there was none, only flings with Kelly and the asari... if the asari aren't women, it wasn't a s/s then, though I think about them as women).

My point is: I understand the purpose of this thread and I support it, but I think we should discuss here if we agree or not. Reasons? Starting another thread would mean repeating most of the discussion. Also, it would be a hatred thread: "the things I do NOT want in ME3", which always ends in a negative way. Not starting it could make Bioware to think that the only opinions are in this thread and they're all supportive, which is not true. I think too that we could keep any discussion in a mature way if we accept others' views: I understand why people want same sex romance with Kaidan, Garrus, etc, but I prefer s/s romances to be new ones. But, again, I know it's difficult to have different points of views without arguing.

So, after saying this, I my wishes for ME3:

Joker as bi, Samara as Li (obviously bi, but I want her only near the endgame... do not ask why, it's my wish ), Vega as totally gay (yes, I support all orientations, not "make everyone bi"). 

[Lenimph]

Bolboreta wrote...


Joker as bi, Samara as Li (obviously bi, but I want her only near the endgame... do not ask why, it's my wish ), Vega as totally gay (yes, I support all orientations, not "make everyone bi"). 

Nuuuu don't make Vega gay! He's mankinds last hope for a decent human-male LI. Exclusivity will make me jelly. 

[United Servo Academy Choir]

Bolboreta wrote...


I agree mostly with Khevan. I want same sex romances (for both sexs; in ME2 there was none, only flings with Kelly and the asari... if the asari aren't women, it wasn't a s/s then, though I think about them as women).

Fixed.

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

This should really go in the OP.

Edited by TommyServo, 13 June 2011 - 06:36 PM.

[Volus Warlord]

RAGE RAGE RAGE RAGE RAGE

[Ryzaki]

A exclusive m/m male squaddie would be awesome.

Definitely would have to be someone new though.

I want it to be Big Ben.

[khevan]

IsaacShep wrote...

khevan wrote...
But for the rest of them, especially the VS, my Shepards have interacted with them, and relate to them, as heterosexuals.  And before I get the label homophobe, this is not a negative thing.  It's like as a FemShep, I related to Ash as a woman.  It's who she is.  Kaidan the same.  To me, both of them "seem to be" heterosexuals.

The point is though, that it really is just your (and everyone else too) assumption what their exact sexual orientation is. They never say it themselves. Furthermore, when you interacted with Ashely as FemShep, it was all on friendship level. Since you weren't romantically interested in them, their romantic life doesn't really change what you liked them for. The parts of their personality you were interested and related to were on the friendship level. You mentioned real life, it's the same. After the initial surprise, people realize their friends that 'came out' are exactly the same persons. In the friendship relation, nothing changes since sexuality/romance is not part of a friendship.

See my above reply.  I'm not actively against s/s VS romance, I just don't want it to be poorly implemented, and I can see it being handled well.  Hell, I may just make a femShep to romance Ash in ME3, and a maleShep to romance Kaidan.  That is, if the VS are, indeed, opened up.  Well, time to head to work.

Have fun storming the castle!

[SennenScale]

Bolboreta wrote...
Joker as bi, Samara as Li (obviously bi, but I want her only near the endgame... do not ask why, it's my wish ), Vega as totally gay (yes, I support all orientations, not "make everyone bi"). 

I would love to see an actually gay LI, it's just a tad unlikely. Bisexuality is just a more efficient use of resources for the devs, I think.

[jlb524]

SennenScale wrote...

Bolboreta wrote...
Joker as bi, Samara as Li (obviously bi, but I want her only near the endgame... do not ask why, it's my wish ), Vega as totally gay (yes, I support all orientations, not "make everyone bi"). 

I would love to see an actually gay LI, it's just a tad unlikely. Bisexuality is just a more efficient use of resources for the devs, I think.

It is.

Plus, I personally support equal opportunity/options to romance whichever LI you want with your idealized avatar (it's your game anyway) and I don't even support f/f or m/m exclusive romances even if they could/would do it.

Edited by jlb524, 13 June 2011 - 06:43 PM.

[Trixtan]

 I'm really excited who will be the LI's for ME3. 

My main playthrough Shep kept Kaidan alive because, although he wouldn't outwordly admit it at the time he had a crush on him. During ME2 he told Kelly that he "Missed Him" as it was the best thing he could articulate at the time. 

I wish there would be an option to flirt with a party member even if they're not attracted to Shepard. It would just be cool for my shep to have to confront his feelings for Kaidan even if it ends in rejection. 

That said. I'd love to see what James Vega looks like! From the blown up collectors edition photo he looks attractive! 

Maybe he could give my shep something personal to fight for!