25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

TheMarshal wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

I kind of feel the same way about Jack. She's SO direct, that if she was up for it, she'd do it. Jack doesn't hold back. Miranda, on the other hand, DOES hold back. A LOT. If anyone has more to reveal about herself, it's Miranda.

Directness is often a way of hiding something else, though.  Jack could be very vocal about turning down femShep because she tends to form more meaningful (and thus potentially hurtful) relationships with women.

Just to play devil's advocate here...  >.>

edit: darn, ninja'd!

You and diskoh make good points, and I certainly wouldn't use the "R" word if BioWare decided to open up Jack as a s/s LI. If they did that though, I almost feel like they'd need to shut down the o/s romance for her. I don't see Jack as a true bisexual, I think she has either an unresolved issue with women (thanks, Marana) or she really does just prefer dudes. I honestly think it would be kind of cool if Jack shut down an existing romance with ManShep, or if it just kind of petered out (heehee) because of her coming to grips with her issues with women. I reeeally don't see that happening, for out-of-game reasons though. I think the most likely scenario is that Jack will remain o/s only.

[shepskisaac]

EJ107 wrote...
I think that the best compromise would be to add three s/s LI's who were minor charcters in previous games, so we sort of know them.

No. All the other main romances are with perma-squaddies. That's part of the reason why they feel so significant. You spent the most time with this character, they're the most present in the game and these romances with perma-squadmates are trilogy spanning. At least one male s/s LI needs to be old perma-squadmate. Otherwise, gay players will not have anything even remotely close to the huge experience straight players got with trilogy-spanning romances with perma-squaddies. Secondary/minor characters opening up is great but as an additional option. At this point we're not gonna get exactly as big experience as straight romances anyway, so we at least should get second-best which would be old perma-squaddie opening up.

EJ107 wrote...Two for M Shep, and one for F Shep, who also has Liara as an option.
This means that everybody has an equal number of options, as Liara is alive in every game, no characters are
'retconed', and people cannot say "Everybody is bi" because all other previous LI's, except for Liara, were not.

Again, why do we have to submit to an illogical excuse? (talking about retcon) Just because there are many people running with it? If that's the case why didn't we submit to their "will" in the first place, why did anyone even demand any s/s romances.

But I agree on proportions, two s/s LIs for MShep and 1 s/s LI for FemShep (whether new or old) would be the best and equal, since there was Liara from the beggining.

Ryzaki wrote...
Which is why I don't want the old LIs to become open. They already are permanent friends iin my view and have no chance of turning romantic.

Yeah and Joker ain't already on the permanent friends level? Please.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 14 juin 2011 - 10:04 .

[jlb524]

Siansonea II wrote...
Miranda, on the other hand, DOES hold back. A LOT. If anyone has more to reveal about herself, it's Miranda.

That's why I'd think she'd make an interesting option, IMO at least....though I still think they could pull it off with anyone.

Though, another thing to consider is how much screen time these LIs will have...it seems Ashley will have a lot, but we don't know about Miranda atm.  Therefore, it might be more feasible with a squad mate like Ashley.

[Siansonea]

jlb524 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Miranda, on the other hand, DOES hold back. A LOT. If anyone has more to reveal about herself, it's Miranda.

That's why I'd think she'd make an interesting option, IMO at least....though I still think they could pull it off with anyone.

Though, another thing to consider is how much screen time these LIs will have...it seems Ashley will have a lot, but we don't know about Miranda atm.  Therefore, it might be more feasible with a squad mate like Ashley.

I agree that any squad mate could be handled well as a bisexual LI, but I think it's easier with some than others. I think Jack is one who would require a more lengthy explanation, whereas Miranda could be handled with a line like "Don't think you already know everything about me, Shepard." Honestly, I don't take anything Miranda says or does at face value, I'm not convinced she's been sincere at any moment in the game other than the last moments of her loyalty mission. I know she cares about Oriana, but everything else could easily be 100% pure smokescreen. Of course, that's one reason I LOVE Miranda as a character. 

[Syledir]

First of all: Thank you BioWare for including s/s romance in Mass Effect 3.

I hear Retcon many times and I don't get it. Wasn't it Retcon when Garrus told you he would go back to C-Sec at the end of ME1. Two years later we meet him again as Archangel, taking the law in his own hands. Wasn't it Retcon when Wrex told you that he gave up on his people or, in his words, gave up on a lost cause. Two years later we meet him again on Tuchanka doing the exact opposite. I am not going to judge, if that was retcon or not. But as far as I know no one seemed to be upset about it. Everyone was happy that Wrex and Garrus were back.

The same goes for Garrus and Tali being confirmed LIs for ME2 despite them not showing any kind of attraction in ME1. It seems to me it is only retcon when one is not agreeing with it.

[Siansonea]

Syledir wrote...

First of all: Thank you BioWare for including s/s romance in Mass Effect 3.

I hear Retcon many times and I don't get it. Wasn't it Retcon when Garrus told you he would go back to C-Sec at the end of ME1. Two years later we meet him again as Archangel, taking the law in his own hands. Wasn't it Retcon when Wrex told you that he gave up on his people or, in his words, gave up on a lost cause. Two years later we meet him again on Tuchanka doing the exact opposite. I am not going to judge, if that was retcon or not. But as far as I know no one seemed to be upset about it. Everyone was happy that Wrex and Garrus were back.

The same goes for Garrus and Tali being confirmed LIs for ME2 despite them not showing any kind of attraction in ME1. It seems to me it is only retcon when one is not agreeing with it.

I agree with your points and your examples, and that's one reason I banned the "retcon" thing from this thread. 

[Ryzaki]

Syledir wrote...

First of all: Thank you BioWare for including s/s romance in Mass Effect 3.

I hear Retcon many times and I don't get it. Wasn't it Retcon when Garrus told you he would go back to C-Sec at the end of ME1. Two years later we meet him again as Archangel, taking the law in his own hands. Wasn't it Retcon when Wrex told you that he gave up on his people or, in his words, gave up on a lost cause. Two years later we meet him again on Tuchanka doing the exact opposite. I am not going to judge, if that was retcon or not. But as far as I know no one seemed to be upset about it. Everyone was happy that Wrex and Garrus were back.

The same goes for Garrus and Tali being confirmed LIs for ME2 despite them not showing any kind of attraction in ME1. It seems to me it is only retcon when one is not agreeing with it.

I did find Tali's romance to be a retcon. Garrus though...he said he was going to C-Sec. He didn't say he did it. To me that was natural development that occured after Shepard died. Plans changed (same with Wrex). Shepard has to hit on Garrus to initate the romance (am I correct?) so it's not like he said "oh Shepard I had feelings for you ever since you saved me(or helped...or whatever) yet no one ever mention this to Shepard and Shepard himself doesn't notice.) 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 juin 2011 - 10:11 .

[Ianamus]

IsaacShep wrote...

No. All the other main romances are with perma-squaddies. That's part of the reason why they feel so significant. You spent the most time with this character, they're the most present in the game and these romances with perma-squadmates are trilogy spanning. At least one male s/s LI needs to be old perma-squadmate. Otherwise, gay players will not have anything even remotely close to the huge experience straight players got with trilogy-spanning romances with perma-squaddies. Secondary/minor characters opening up is great but as an additional option. At this point we're not gonna get exactly as big experience as straight romances anyway, so we at least should get second-best which would be old perma-squaddie opening up.

I'm not sure whether you misunderstood me or not. These previously minor charcters would be permanant Squadmates in ME3, so there would be some initial familiarity. This is as close as you can get to 'trilogy spanning' considering that these are new squadmates.

IsaacShep wrote...

Again, why do we have to submit to an illogical excuse? (talking about retcon) Just because there are many people running with it? If that's the case why didn't we submit to their "will" in the first place, why did anyone even demand any s/s romances.

Because, to be entirely honest, I can see where they are comming from when they complain about old characters being changed. It's just my opinion, and we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I'm just trying to think of a solution that will make as many people happy as possible, and I believe it is new characters.

IsaacShep wrote...

But I agree on proportions, two s/s LIs for MShep and 1 s/s LI for FemShep (whether new or old) would be the best and equal, since there was Liara from the beggining.

Well at least you agree with me on something . I also think that one of the male options should be alien and one human, so that both male and female shepard have a choice of one human s/s LI and one alien s/s LI.

Modifié par EJ107, 14 juin 2011 - 10:25 .

[shepskisaac]

Syledir wrote...

First of all: Thank you BioWare for including s/s romance in Mass Effect 3.

I hear Retcon many times and I don't get it. Wasn't it Retcon when Garrus told you he would go back to C-Sec at the end of ME1. Two years later we meet him again as Archangel, taking the law in his own hands. Wasn't it Retcon when Wrex told you that he gave up on his people or, in his words, gave up on a lost cause. Two years later we meet him again on Tuchanka doing the exact opposite. I am not going to judge, if that was retcon or not. But as far as I know no one seemed to be upset about it. Everyone was happy that Wrex and Garrus were back.

The same goes for Garrus and Tali being confirmed LIs for ME2 despite them not showing any kind of attraction in ME1. It seems to me it is only retcon when one is not agreeing with it.

Best part of this entire retcon nonsense? Garrus DID say he's going to C-Sec, Wrex DID say he gave up on his people. Kaidan did NOT say he's straight. Yet for all the anti-gay people,  the former is not a retcon and the latter is (if he also likes men). I mean, this is some reversed logic voodoo, makes absolutely no sense lol

[Ianamus]

---

Modifié par EJ107, 14 juin 2011 - 10:23 .

[GreenSoda]

Syledir wrote...

First of all: Thank you BioWare for including s/s romance in Mass Effect 3.

I hear Retcon many times and I don't get it. Wasn't it Retcon when Garrus told you he would go back to C-Sec at the end of ME1. Two years later we meet him again as Archangel, taking the law in his own hands. Wasn't it Retcon when Wrex told you that he gave up on his people or, in his words, gave up on a lost cause. Two years later we meet him again on Tuchanka doing the exact opposite. I am not going to judge, if that was retcon or not. But as far as I know no one seemed to be upset about it. Everyone was happy that Wrex and Garrus were back.

The same goes for Garrus and Tali being confirmed LIs for ME2 despite them not showing any kind of attraction in ME1. It seems to me it is only retcon when one is not agreeing with it.

Not doing what you said you would do is different than not being who you used to be.

[FKA_Servo]

GreenSoda wrote...

Not doing what you said you would do is different than not being who you used to be.

And expanding a character is not the same as changing a character. And sexuality does not define a character.

Etcetera and so forth, and around we go.

[Syledir]

Ryzaki wrote...

Syledir wrote...

First of all: Thank you BioWare for including s/s romance in Mass Effect 3.

I hear Retcon many times and I don't get it. Wasn't it Retcon when Garrus told you he would go back to C-Sec at the end of ME1. Two years later we meet him again as Archangel, taking the law in his own hands. Wasn't it Retcon when Wrex told you that he gave up on his people or, in his words, gave up on a lost cause. Two years later we meet him again on Tuchanka doing the exact opposite. I am not going to judge, if that was retcon or not. But as far as I know no one seemed to be upset about it. Everyone was happy that Wrex and Garrus were back.

The same goes for Garrus and Tali being confirmed LIs for ME2 despite them not showing any kind of attraction in ME1. It seems to me it is only retcon when one is not agreeing with it.

I did find Tali's romance to be a retcon. Garrus though...he said he was going to C-Sec. He didn't say he did it. To me that was natural development that occured after Shepard died. Plans changed (same with Wrex). Shepard has to hit on Garrus to initate the romance (am I correct?) so it's not like he said "oh Shepard I had feelings for you ever since you saved me(or helped...or whatever) yet no one ever mention this to Shepard and Shepard himself doesn't notice.) 

It has been some time, since I played ME2, but i think you are correct. But don't you have to initiate the romance with Tali aswell? I see no difference between between the Garrus and the Tali romance. Both NPCs were not romanceable in ME1, but were in ME2.

Yes, plans change. But there is a huge difference between wanting to uphold the law on the Citadel and becoming a vigilante on Omega. Especially if i compare it with what Tali wanted to do in ME1 and how it turned out in ME2.

I can see, we have different views on that matter. I can live with that. My point is the hole retcon thing is mute point. One says it is retcon, while the other says it isn't. Better avoid it altogether. 

[shepskisaac]

EJ107 wrote...
I'm not sure whether you misunderstood me or not. These previously minor charcters would be permanant Squadmates in ME3, so there would be some initial familiarity, and then this could be increased through characterisation and such.

I understood. And they would be perma-squaddies only by the third part of the trilogy. Minor/secondary characters from previous games have few (if any) variables and flags attatched to them that could be incorporated into the romance in ME3. Former perma-squaddies do have tons of them. That's the difference. Other main LIs are trilogy spanning not only due to the fact they appear in 3 games (or at least two), but also due to the fact there's a gameplay part in the romance, you make choices with these characters. Plus, it's really just theoretical talk IMO. At this point the squad is surely decided and locked. It's basically granted neither Joker, Anderson or other secondary/minor male character will not be a perma-squaddies in ME3. Not only they have kazillion previous squadmates to use (and fans demanded strongly to have as much old squaddies back in full-time as possible), but they've also already revealed Vega, there's a new human female surely coming + VS, Garrus, Tali, Liara that already makes 6 spots taken from a team they've said will be smaller than in ME2.

EJ107 wrote...
Because, to be entirely honest, I can see where they are comming from when they complain about old characters being changed. It's just my opinion, and we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I'm just trying to think of a solution that will make as many people happy as possible, and I believe it is new characters.

Whatever place they're coming from, in the end the retcon excuse is simply illogical.

EJ107 wrote...
Well at least you agree with me on something . I also think that one of the male options should be alien and one human, so that both male and female shepard have a choice of one human s/s LI and one alien s/s LI.

Honestly I would preffer two humans. This is the end of the trilogy and gay guys are only now getting the first romance(s). Too late for further experiments with alien romances at this point IMO, unless they look VERY human-like (male Asari anyone?)

[Ryzaki]

Syledir wrote...
It has been some time, since I played ME2, but i think you are correct. But don't you have to initiate the romance with Tali aswell? I see no difference between between the Garrus and the Tali romance. Both NPCs were not romanceable in ME1, but were in ME2.

Yes, plans change. But there is a huge difference between wanting to uphold the law on the Citadel and becoming a vigilante on Omega. Especially if i compare it with what Tali wanted to do in ME1 and how it turned out in ME2.

I can see, we have different views on that matter. I can live with that. My point is the hole retcon thing is mute point. One says it is retcon, while the other says it isn't. Better avoid it altogether. 

Nope. I kept talkingto her and she brings up her crush. (lest as far as I can remember) there was a large difference between the two. in one Tali claims to "how could she not fall in love with her dashing commander who rescued her." which...is ridiculous because she's talkig about the rescue in ME1. In the other Garrus goes "i never considered it before." which to me made a lot more sense. 

I see it as Garrus being suicidal (theory stolen from Sia). He knows these mech-chutlu are coming to destroy the entire galaxy and the one person who could stop them is dead. He might as well get rid of as many baddies as fast as he can. (Plus I could see him getting sick of the corrupt crap in C-Sec that's the exact kind of thing paragon Shepard tells him to avoid). 

Tali...Tali always wanted to help her people. I don't see a large jump in her actions. 

We do have different views though. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 juin 2011 - 10:43 .

[GreenSoda]

TommyServo wrote...

GreenSoda wrote...

Not doing what you said you would do is different than not being who you used to be.

And expanding a character is not the same as changing a character. And sexuality does not define a character.

Etcetera and so forth, and around we go.

Aside from all the instincts to survive (eat, breath, drink), sex is probably *the* most significant motivator there is in life. How does this not contribute to the shape of a character ? Of course it does. And that is the severity of the argument.

Having everyone being bi simply cheapens all LIs in the game. I'd much prefer NPCs who are exclusivly gay or straight (or bi..just not all the same. A homogenous mass of Shephard-sexuals). I also thaught that Lianna was gay in DA:O and having her fall for men felt very tacked on.

[GreenSoda]

Montezuma IV wrote...

GreenSoda wrote...
Aside from all the instincts to survive (eat, breath, drink), sex is probably *the* most significant motivator there is in life. How does this not contribute to the shape of a character ? Of course it does. And that is the severity of the argument.

Having everyone being bi simply cheapens all LIs in the game. I'd much prefer NPCs who are exclusivly gay or straight (or bi..just not all the same. A homogenous mass of Shephard-sexuals). I also thaught that Lianna was gay in DA:O and having her fall for men felt very tacked on.

For a feral animal. We are humans beings. You can argue all you want about the fact that we are undeveloped or  primitive but the fact is just like I can refrain from punching you in public I can refrain from having sex with you.....no?

...and through sheer will you can refrain from eating and starve to death -yet still you can't choose to not feel hunger.

[FKA_Servo]

Double post.

Modifié par TommyServo, 14 juin 2011 - 11:05 .

[FKA_Servo]

GreenSoda wrote...

Aside from all the instincts to survive (eat, breath, drink), sex is probably *the* most significant motivator there is in life. How does this not contribute to the shape of a character ? Of course it does. And that is the severity of the argument.

Having everyone being bi simply cheapens all LIs in the game. I'd much prefer NPCs who are exclusivly gay or straight (or bi..just not all the same. A homogenous mass of Shephard-sexuals). I also thaught that Lianna was gay in DA:O and having her fall for men felt very tacked on.

Not for everyone. Some people are gay, some are straight, some are bi. Some people are pansexual. Lots of people are asexual. Etcetera and so forth.  It's not their sole defining characteristic. This is off-topic.

In any event, sexuality is certainly not the primary defining characteristic of any Mass Effect character I can name.

Modifié par TommyServo, 14 juin 2011 - 11:08 .

[Syledir]

Ryzaki wrote...

Syledir wrote...
It has been some time, since I played ME2, but i think you are correct. But don't you have to initiate the romance with Tali aswell? I see no difference between between the Garrus and the Tali romance. Both NPCs were not romanceable in ME1, but were in ME2.

Yes, plans change. But there is a huge difference between wanting to uphold the law on the Citadel and becoming a vigilante on Omega. Especially if i compare it with what Tali wanted to do in ME1 and how it turned out in ME2.

I can see, we have different views on that matter. I can live with that. My point is the hole retcon thing is mute point. One says it is retcon, while the other says it isn't. Better avoid it altogether. 

Nope. I kept talkingto her and she brings up her crush. (lest as far as I can remember) there was a large difference between the two. in one Tali claims to "how could she not fall in love with her dashing commander who rescued her." which...is ridiculous because she's talkig about the rescue in ME1. In the other Garrus goes "i never considered it before." which to me made a lot more sense. 

I see it as Garrus being suicidal (theory stolen from Sia). He knows these mech-chutlu are coming to destroy the entire galaxy and the one person who could stop them is dead. He might as well get rid of as many baddies as fast as he can. (Plus I could see him getting sick of the corrupt crap in C-Sec that's the exact kind of thing paragon Shepard tells him to avoid). 

Tali...Tali always wanted to help her people. I don't see a large jump in her actions. 

We do have different views though. 

You just said it. To YOU it made a lot more sense. But not to everyone. I regard the Tali romance as equally well made as the Garrus romance. 

The suicidal Garrus theory sounds plausible. 

[Ryzaki]

Syledir wrote...
You just said it. To YOU it made a lot more sense. But not to everyone. I regard the Tali romance as equally well made as the Garrus romance. 

The suicidal Garrus theory sounds plausible. 

Sense because there was backstory (he did those kind of actions before) on the other hand Tali's little crush has no basis in backstory to me. 

[diskoh]

Ryzaki wrote...
I did find Tali's romance to be a retcon.

Unfathomable. Sorry to be rude, but do you have any understanding at all of how relationships and feelings develop?

Since it took years for my wife and I to develop romantic feelings, I will sadly be divorcing her because our marriage is considered a retcon.