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[Clonedzero]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Been catching up on the last few pages - what is it with dudebros and Garrus?

I'm amazed. Nearly every single time opposition comes up, it relates to Garrus. Just Garrus. He's the perennial example of paranoid fears about characters.

I'd love to do some investigating as to why he comes up so often. Why do dudebros feel such a connection? Why Garrus and not, say, Zaeed or Thane?

dudebros? really guy? be more of an ignorant jerk

[ElitePinecone]

Clonedzero wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

Been catching up on the last few pages - what is it with dudebros and Garrus?

I'm amazed. Nearly every single time opposition comes up, it relates to Garrus. Just Garrus. He's the perennial example of paranoid fears about characters.

I'd love to do some investigating as to why he comes up so often. Why do dudebros feel such a connection? Why Garrus and not, say, Zaeed or Thane?

dudebros? really guy? be more of an ignorant jerk

Sorry if you're offended, but can you really say that posters who throw up Garrus as the sacred icon of masculine badassery (and therefore should be quarantined from teh ghey) aren't doing so because they have some irrational attachment to testosterone fuelled characters? 

I mean, I like Garrus enough as a character - he's got some nice moral dilemmas going on with the C-Sec/Spectre clash, and his backstory with the squad on Omega is great - but I'm not frothing at the mouth to uphold him as the best fictional alien ever to have existed, nor am I inventing some kind of bizarre bromance connection with a maleShepard (never mind that Shepard isn't always male).  

I find, say, Samara's conflict between duty and personal grief to be far more interesting. Or even Kasumi's wrestling with a dead partner's memories. Or Thane's alien philosophy. 

Again, I didn't mean to insult you - but why is it that people hold up Garrus as the number one 'bro' character who they'd chuck a tantrum over if he were ever available for s/s? I'm genuinely interested. 

[Clonedzero]

because, absolutely nothing in garrus's past, backstory, personality, or basic logic point towards a s/s romance.

i mean the femshep romance makes so little sense as it is already, an s/s romance would make even less sense especially considering the established close friend relationship shepard and garrus have.

thats the issue, its not that they're homophobic. its that it makes absolutely NO SENSE for him to be gay. i mean an s/s romance with an alien species that looks nothing like each other? thats alittle too obscure and extreme, dont you think?

i mean theres SO many factors saying it shouldnt make any sense at all. yet people seem to get upset when people dont want it to happen because it makes no sense and would be painfully obvious and badly written fanservice?

like you said, zaeed is a super masculine badass, but i wouldnt have a problem with him being an s/s romance, because that actually MAKES SENSE.

he's got an exo-skeleton, he looks nothing like a human, they're the same gender in what seems like a culturally simular situation, they're basic dna code is so different that ingesting "material" can put them into shock. there was absolutely NO hint at any budding romance between male shep and garrus in two established games.

give me one good reason why it would make any remote sense to make him an s/s option. well one thats not painfully obvious pandering and fanservice.

[Jademoon121]

Clonedzero wrote...

because, absolutely nothing in garrus's past, backstory, personality, or basic logic point towards a s/s romance.

i mean the femshep romance makes so little sense as it is already, an s/s romance would make even less sense especially considering the established close friend relationship shepard and garrus have.

thats the issue, its not that they're homophobic. its that it makes absolutely NO SENSE for him to be gay. i mean an s/s romance with an alien species that looks nothing like each other? thats alittle too obscure and extreme, dont you think?

i mean theres SO many factors saying it shouldnt make any sense at all. yet people seem to get upset when people dont want it to happen because it makes no sense and would be painfully obvious and badly written fanservice?

like you said, zaeed is a super masculine badass, but i wouldnt have a problem with him being an s/s romance, because that actually MAKES SENSE.

he's got an exo-skeleton, he looks nothing like a human, they're the same gender in what seems like a culturally simular situation, they're basic dna code is so different that ingesting "material" can put them into shock. there was absolutely NO hint at any budding romance between male shep and garrus in two established games.

give me one good reason why it would make any remote sense to make him an s/s option. well one thats not painfully obvious pandering and fanservice.

He only romances femshep for her personality and not gender? Turian males and females look almost exactly the same, the very fact that he's wiling to court outside of his species in of itself is illogical. Male or female, it's just not biologicaly viable.

Modifié par Jademoon121, 06 août 2011 - 06:36 .

[KawaiiKatie]

I don't think that male Shepard's lack of option to flirt with Garrus was indicative of Garrus' heterosexuality... I don't think it was indicative of anything except male Shepard's inability to flirt with Garrus.

Garrus' relationship with male and female Shepard is identical up to the point where female Shepard can make a pass at Garrus. Garrus literally treats male and female Shepard the same, with the exception of the line right after he receives his scars; for males, "Everyone was always ignoring you and hitting on me--it's time you had a fair shot" and for females, "Some women find facial scars attractive." While one could argue that Garrus' line to femShep is slightly more suggestive, one could also argue that those lines are innocuous and ambiguous.

That said, we have no reason to believe that Garrus wouldn't have responded to male Shepard's advances, if male Shepard had been given the option to suggest "blowing off steam" the same way femShep was. Has Garrus ever shown an interest in human males? No. But did he ever show an interest in human females before femShep made the first move? No.

So if male Shepard is allowed to flirt with Garrus in ME3, and Garrus responds positively, it will "make sense."

Especially if he says, "Wow, Shepard, you should have spoken up sooner!*"



(*OMG, Bioware, please don't do that. Please don't act like it's our fault that gay male Shepard is still single. Please don't have Garrus or any other previously unavailable man say, "You should have spoken up sooner!" or anything that implies that it's the player's fault that gay male Shepard has never flirted with another man. I beg you.)

[ilovemesometurian]

To ask an alien of another species to differentiate between gender is irrelevant. Most likely to them, a female and male take no preference over one another due to species differences and it all comes down to personality and preference. You're thinking too human. To Garrus, male and female humans might actually seem identical to him. The only difference is that females have those "funny bumps." He wants Shepard because he wants someone he can trust and their relationship is based on that. He feels this same connection to male Shepard and so a same sex romance is possible. Another viewpoint may suggest that just because he prefers turian women doesn't mean he won't go for a human male. There are too many special variables to attone for and it merely comes down to what Garrus prefers. If same sex is available and he prefers human women, so be it. If he prefers turian women and will go for male or female humans that is possible. Or he may also vibe toward male turians as well as female turians AND both genders of the human species. Interspecies romances are hard to pinpoint because there's nothing in our society that comes close to it so it's hard to judge based on experience of preference. Besides, there were no implications toward a budding romance between Garrus and female Shepard in the first game, the exclusion of same sex romance in ME2 could have been the only variable keeping him from being a dual sex option. If he can romance a human, then gender is a little less of a turning point in his "sexuality". This is coming from someone who wouldn't mind either way and is truthfully looking forward to Kasumi  but that's a whole 'nother give and take.

Modifié par ilovemesometurian, 06 août 2011 - 06:54 .

[ElitePinecone]

Clonedzero wrote...

Replace 's/s' in your post with 'romance', and you're absolutely right. 

Garrus is a turian. 

Absolutely nothing in his past, backstory, personality or basic logic points to him being attracted to humans. 

I mean, a romance between alien species that look nothing like each other? That's a little too obscure and extreme, don't you think?

He's got an exo-skeleton, he looks nothing like a human, the chirality of the DNA is so different that ingesting any material would put either party into shock. There was absolutely NO hint at any budding romance between Garrus and femShep in the first game. 

So I ask you: why on earth should Garrus have been a romance for femShep? Give me one good reason, apart from obvious pandering and fanservice. 

________________________________

Since there is none, and since female humans are aeons closer to male humans both physiologically and behaviourally than either male or female humans are to male turians, what's the objection to extending the attraction to both genders of humans? 

Speculating that gender roles are close enough between male humans and turians is being disingenuous. You know perfectly well that we have no idea what the gender roles are, and to make any comparison stretches credibility. 

They're already an improbably humanoid, bird-like species who just happen to have a society based on the Roman Empire and even the concept of two genders. It wouldn't be breaking logic to have any alien attracted to both genders of humans, since the whole scenario is so ridiculously unrealistic to begin with. 

If you can justify Garrus' attraction to femShep based on nothing more than personality, then you can justify his attraction to maleShep. They have the same personality, and if you seriously believe that an alien would notice or care about the differences between male and female human behaviour, this conversation isn't worth continuing. 

Edit: fixed a word. 

Modifié par ElitePinecone, 06 août 2011 - 06:45 .

[Clonedzero]

Jademoon121 wrote...


He only romances femshep for her personality and not gender? Turian males and females look almost exactly the same, the very fact that he's wiling to court outside of his species in of itself is illogical. Male or female, it's just not biologicaly viable.

thanks for supporting my point

[Clonedzero]

ElitePinecone wrote...


Since there is none, and since female humans are aeons closer to male humans both physiologically and behaviourally than either male or female humans are to male turians, what's the objection to extending the attraction to both genders of humans? 

Speculating that gender roles are close enough between male humans and turians is being disingenuous. You know perfectly well that we have no idea what the gender roles are, and to make any comparison stretches credibility. 

They're already an improbably humanoid, bird-like species who just happen to have a society based on the Roman Empire and even the concept of two genders. It wouldn't be breaking logic to have any alien attracted to both genders of humans, since the whole scenario is so ridiculously unrealistic to begin with. 

If you can justify Garrus' attraction to femShep based on nothing more than personality, then you can justify his attraction to maleShep. They have the same personality, and if you seriously believe that an alien would notice or care about the differences between male and female human behaviour, this conversation isn't worth continuing. 

Edit: fixed a word. 

yo, you completely ignored the part where i was annoyed about how little sense the femshep romance made. i dont want more illogical romances. the femshep one is already in the game. i dont want more crap that makes no sense in the game, since well it MAKES NO SENSE.

and absolutely an alien would notice differences between male and female human behavior. what are you talking about?  theres a fairly significant difference between average male and female human behavior.

if he's a straight turian, which is safe to assume since he's referenced it before. then its less of a leap for him to have a relationshp with an opposite sex member of a different species than the same. simply based ont hat fact.

at this point, you're just grasping at straws trying to justify a wholy illogical pairing based off allt he character interaction, personalities, backrounds, and in-game lore, it makes absolutely no sense.

that is my issue with garrus being an s/s romance.

hell i think romances should be with human npcs only, maybe asari too, other than that it makes no sense and is breaking believablity.

kaidan, ashley, miranda, jacob, zaeed, kasumi, vega, make them all bi. sure. leave the aliens out of it.

[Clonedzero]

ilovemesometurian wrote...

To ask an alien of another species to differentiate between gender is irrelevant. Most likely to them, a female and male take no preference over one another due to species differences and it all comes down to personality and preference. You're thinking too human. To Garrus, male and female humans might actually seem identical to him. The only difference is that females have those "funny bumps." He wants Shepard because he wants someone he can trust and their relationship is based on that. He feels this same connection to male Shepard and so a same sex romance is possible. Another viewpoint may suggest that just because he prefers turian women doesn't mean he won't go for a human male. There are too many special variables to attone for and it merely comes down to what Garrus prefers. If same sex is available and he prefers human women, so be it. If he prefers turian women and will go for male or female humans that is possible. Or he may also vibe toward male turians as well as female turians AND both genders of the human species. Interspecies romances are hard to pinpoint because there's nothing in our society that comes close to it so it's hard to judge based on experience of preference. Besides, there were no implications toward a budding romance between Garrus and female Shepard in the first game, the exclusion of same sex romance in ME2 could have been the only variable keeping him from being a dual sex option. If he can romance a human, then gender is a little less of a turning point in his "sexuality". This is coming from someone who wouldn't mind either way and is truthfully looking forward to Kasumi  but that's a whole 'nother give and take.

you're saying aliens are too dumb and blind to notice obvious differences between average male and female human behavior?

sure they can master spaceflight, but noticing differences between genders, man! thats impossible!

[ElitePinecone]

Clonedzero wrote...
if he's a straight turian, which is safe to assume since he's referenced it before. then its less of a leap for him to have a relationshp with an opposite sex member of a different species than the same. simply based ont hat fact.

So you'd feel more comfortable about having a relationship with, say, a female alien than a male one? With different DNA? And a face made of sandpaper? Who talks with bird-noises and has talons? 

There's nothing 'simple' about it. Human gender roles aren't turian gender roles. Human sexuality isn't turian sexuality. 

Would you rather have a relationship with a female dolphin? 

'Cause, you know, they're female, and you're straight.

I agree that the Garrus romance is ridiculous. 

But it's already in the game, and Bioware have clearly thrown plausibility out the window when it comes to romance, because - as Casey Hudson said - "If people want to have a romance with this bird-like guy with an exoskeleton, then okay..

You're imposing human sexual norms on an alien species that we know nothing about, and attempting to defend it by assigning to Garrus a human sexual category that has absolutely no relevance once the species barrier is crossed. 

[Clonedzero]

exactly im arguing against all alien relationships, tali, garrus, grunt, thane, ect.

you labeling me as a ignorant homophobic "dudebro" because i dont want an s/s romance with garrus in the game is just as offensive as if i would start making bigoted comments against gay people.

my objections against an s/s romance with garrus isnt becaut im homophobic, its because i actually understand the story and lore of the mass effect universe.

[who would know]

Tell 'em ElitePinecone!

Personally, alien romance is weird. But femShep got Garrus, so the cat's out the bag. There's really no reason Garrus' emotional attraction shouldn't extend to the male incarnation of the exact same character. But, no matter. My Sheps don't want to romance him anyway.

[ColArcher]

ElitePinecone wrote...

If you can justify Garrus' attraction to femShep based on nothing more than personality, then you can justify his attraction to maleShep. They have the same personality, and if you seriously believe that an alien would notice or care about the differences between male and female human behaviour, this conversation isn't worth continuing.

I agree completely, were all starting to beat a dead horse now. I firmly beleve that this has been debated to the absolute maximum.

I support the Garrus~Maleshep romance because I would like to see it happen..thats it, no real reason beyond my personal feelings towards a game charecter whos wrightin script i found appealing.

Now a REALL topic would be on Wrex-Grunt-Garrus love triange! jk

*edit* Also I think my love for Garrus stems from him filling the turian friend void that was left when my best buddy Nihlus got shot in the head..im still a little broken up that I never got to know him better

Modifié par ColArcher, 06 août 2011 - 07:49 .

[Jademoon121]

Clonedzero wrote...

Jademoon121 wrote...


He only romances femshep for her personality and not gender? Turian males and females look almost exactly the same, the very fact that he's wiling to court outside of his species in of itself is illogical. Male or female, it's just not biologicaly viable.

thanks for supporting my point

You're missing my point. If he's willing to look over alien lady parts to love Shepherd, he can do the same with men.

[ElitePinecone]

Clonedzero wrote...


you labeling me as a ignorant homophobic "dudebro" because i dont want an s/s romance with garrus in the game is just as offensive as if i would start making bigoted comments against gay people.

Let me be clear: I'm not labelling you a dudebro. 

We can argue about the specifics of turian sexuality if you wish, but don't put words in my mouth. 

I'm calling people dudebros who rant and rave about Garrus being the most badass and heterosexual motherflipper who walked the Citadel, is a personal 'bro of their manly-Shepard and spends all his days with a cigar and a poker table talking about hot chicks with his commander. As if a turian being attracted to two genders of a species entirely different to his would irreversibly ruin the character, because finding a character of nominally the same gender attractive is, in their eyes, tantamount to weakness. 

I'm not calling you that, because you haven't said anything like that. 

I don't agree with a lot of your argument, but at least you're making one. The people I'm labelling dudebros have no argument beyond 'it's icky and I don't like it and OMG Garrus'. The moment they start to think is the moment I start giving serious consideration to what they have to say. 

[Clonedzero]

Jademoon121 wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

Jademoon121 wrote...


He only romances femshep for her personality and not gender? Turian males and females look almost exactly the same, the very fact that he's wiling to court outside of his species in of itself is illogical. Male or female, it's just not biologicaly viable.

thanks for supporting my point

You're missing my point. If he's willing to look over alien lady parts to love Shepherd, he can do the same with men.

you saying garrus would love male shepard the same way as female shepard is as baseless of a comment as me saying garrus wouldnt love male shepard the same way as female shepard.

you're basing it entirely on the fact that "well he's an alien, and he can romance female shepard so obviously since he's an alien gender means nothing to him".... the male - female dynamic kinda goes accross a vast majority of species. so yeah, i think femshep being a female is the point of that romance. he sees her as a female, not of the same species, but still female. he sees male shep as a male, not of the same species, but still a male.

how is that not painfully obvious?

and again, just because theres other nonsensical romances that break lore in a number of ways does not mean there should be MORE of them....

[Jademoon121]

Clonedzero wrote...

Jademoon121 wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

Jademoon121 wrote...


He only romances femshep for her personality and not gender? Turian males and females look almost exactly the same, the very fact that he's wiling to court outside of his species in of itself is illogical. Male or female, it's just not biologicaly viable.

thanks for supporting my point

You're missing my point. If he's willing to look over alien lady parts to love Shepherd, he can do the same with men.

you saying garrus would love male shepard the same way as female shepard is as baseless of a comment as me saying garrus wouldnt love male shepard the same way as female shepard.

you're basing it entirely on the fact that "well he's an alien, and he can romance female shepard so obviously since he's an alien gender means nothing to him".... the male - female dynamic kinda goes accross a vast majority of species. so yeah, i think femshep being a female is the point of that romance. he sees her as a female, not of the same species, but still female. he sees male shep as a male, not of the same species, but still a male.

how is that not painfully obvious?

and again, just because theres other nonsensical romances that break lore in a number of ways does not mean there should be MORE of them....

As I must reitorate before, male and female turians look almost exactly alike and that he loves femshep because she's Shepherd, not because she's female. We have no idea on how turians percieve sexuality and gender roles, yet you base yours on that of humans, which aren't turians.

[lovgreno]

ElitePinecone wrote...
I'm calling people dudebros who rant and rave about Garrus being the most badass and heterosexual motherflipper who walked the Citadel, is a personal 'bro of their manly-Shepard and spends all his days with a cigar and a poker table talking about hot chicks with his commander. As if a turian being attracted to two genders of a species entirely different to his would irreversibly ruin the character, because finding a character of nominally the same gender attractive is, in their eyes, tantamount to weakness. 

What is manlyer than a manly man? Answer: A manly man who likes manly men!

For the record I support manly Shepard and Garrus no matter if they are straight or not.

Modifié par lovgreno, 06 août 2011 - 08:22 .

[ColArcher]

I wonder what it would be like haveing Mordin as a Maleshep romance, You know? see if we couldent Tame that wild man.. or to see some NPC relationships kick off before the end of the series..Mordin and Thane would probably work nicely or Zaeed and Jacob!
Jack and Miranda? In a flury of Biotic rage the realize that they secretly love eachother. One was a tortured youth turned criminal, the other a geneticly engineered superhuman that had it all, boath brought togeather by a crazy suicide mission to save the universe...

I Would be happy with straight intership NPC romances also..I guess Grunt and Jack would be ok..you just know she would go for it if he layed down the moves. Tali and Mordin could also work, Mordin trys to help Tali find a way to boost the quarian imunesystem and the long hours in the lab togeather made them realize all the wonderfull things about each other.

Legion and EDI would be fantastic! Nothin but 1,184 programs Accesing eachother to further better AI-kind, i know it wouldent be a romance in any sence of the word but still:whistle:

Sorry about this jumbled mess of a post but im just trying to toss ideas around to distance our selfs from the Garrus~Maleshep romance descution...that and i havent slept in a day or so ,so everything seems like a awesome idea rite now

*Edit*

lovgreno wrote...

What is manlyer than a manly man? Answer: A manly man who likes manly men!

For the record I support manly Shepard and Garrus no matter if they are straight or not.

This is Pure Gold, Sir!

Modifié par ColArcher, 06 août 2011 - 08:31 .

[Clonedzero]

Jademoon121 wrote...


As I must reitorate before, male and female turians look almost exactly alike and that he loves femshep because she's Shepherd, not because she's female. We have no idea on how turians percieve sexuality and gender roles, yet you base yours on that of humans, which aren't turians.

i was not aware you are garrus' writer.

[Clonedzero]

elektrego wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...


and again, just because theres other nonsensical romances that break lore in a number of ways does not mean there should be MORE of them....

and again, your trying to use logic on a mostly illogical subject matter is highly nonsensical!
The feelings of an indivdual are hardly lore-breaking and if we are trying to impose human perceptions on this:
Humans are not always behaving logical, why should Turians, especially one who has already shown himself to not share the Turian love for order and discipline.

why would he wait for the end then when he was willing to with femshep in me2?

its not for character purposes, its for pure lorebreaking fanservice, as the origional garrus and tali romances were.
we dont need more of it.

100% supportive for human s/.s romances since they make sense, but seriously, leave the aliens out of it. as like ive said, it makes no sense on so many levels it'd be disgustingly obvious fanservice