25715 réponses à ce sujet

[ElitePinecone]

Clonedzero wrote...
 as like ive said, it makes no sense on so many levels it'd be disgustingly obvious fanservice 

It makes about as much sense as any human-alien romance. That is to say, no sense at all.

You have the quote from Hudson that the alien romances were 'disgustingly obvious fanservice' in the first place, for ME2. The quote, again, was: "If people want to have a romance with this bird-like guy with an exoskeleton, then okay."

There is no lore to defend. You're getting very worked up defending something that was put in the game entirely to satisfy a portion of the fan-base from something that could be put in to satisfy another portion. Absolutely none of it is consistent with the universe's 'science', so defending it from a logical standpoint isn't going to help. 

I wouldn't even use alien s/s options - I think they're awfully unrealistic and a bit icky - but when you're scrutinising a game that has sentient starships, magical space lesbians and an entire universe constructed on a fictional element that can't exist in reality, an alien liking both genders of another alien species is entirely not the most implausible thing.

So I ask: why not accept that the romances aren't meant to be realistic, and give players the option if they want to use them? I wouldn't use them, you definitely wouldn't use them, but some would.  

If Bioware can write it well enough, I'm all for it, even if it's not my thing. 

(side note: I'm 99% certain that Garrus won't be romancable by either gender in ME3, nor will any of the ME2 characters. So we're all beating a dead horse repeatedy)

[jlb524]

Clonedzero wrote...
my objections against an s/s romance with garrus isnt becaut im homophobic, its because i actually understand the story and lore of the mass effect universe.

No, you don't.

[Clonedzero]

jlb524 wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...
my objections against an s/s romance with garrus isnt becaut im homophobic, its because i actually understand the story and lore of the mass effect universe.

No, you don't.

what a great rebuttle, i like how you detailed how i was wrong in concise bullet points for easy reading.

[Clonedzero]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...
 as like ive said, it makes no sense on so many levels it'd be disgustingly obvious fanservice 

It makes about as much sense as any human-alien romance. That is to say, no sense at all.

You have the quote from Hudson that the alien romances were 'disgustingly obvious fanservice' in the first place, for ME2. The quote, again, was: "If people want to have a romance with this bird-like guy with an exoskeleton, then okay."

There is no lore to defend. You're getting very worked up defending something that was put in the game entirely to satisfy a portion of the fan-base from something that could be put in to satisfy another portion. Absolutely none of it is consistent with the universe's 'science', so defending it from a logical standpoint isn't going to help. 

I wouldn't even use alien s/s options - I think they're awfully unrealistic and a bit icky - but when you're scrutinising a game that has sentient starships, magical space lesbians and an entire universe constructed on a fictional element that can't exist in reality, an alien liking both genders of another alien species is entirely not the most implausible thing.

So I ask: why not accept that the romances aren't meant to be realistic, and give players the option if they want to use them? I wouldn't use them, you definitely wouldn't use them, but some would.  

If Bioware can write it well enough, I'm all for it, even if it's not my thing. 

(side note: I'm 99% certain that Garrus won't be romancable by either gender in ME3, nor will any of the ME2 characters. So we're all beating a dead horse repeatedy)

i really hate that argument. "theres spaceships and robots, thats not realistic so bad character development and illogical romances are ok too!".

this is where it chips away at the suspension of disbelief. within context of the story and the fictional universe the game takes place, all of the spaceships and biotics and stuff makes sense. however within context of the story and in the fictional universe the game takes place, a romance between a human and a turian makes no sense, and a s/s relationship between a turian and human makes even less sense.

sure, you can force the romance and say "blah blah, they always had hidden feelings, and since he's an alien gender means nothing" really force it to work, but why? so a super small niche group can enjoy the s/s romance with him? why not focus on something more significant that actually makes sense? also, theres plenty of human characters to have for s/s romances where they'd be a much better choice for it. making everyone bi would be overkill and a waste of writing resources imo.

again, to be perfectly clear, im only against alien/human s/s romances, not s/s romances in general. like i said, im 100% cool with any and all of the human characters being bi/gay, hell i was genuninely happy when i heard kaidan was confirmed as a s/s romance.

[jlb524]

Clonedzero wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...
my objections against an s/s romance with garrus isnt becaut im homophobic, its because i actually understand the story and lore of the mass effect universe.

No, you don't.

what a great rebuttle, i like how you detailed how i was wrong in concise bullet points for easy reading.

Well, tell me how the story and lore precludes Garrus being interested in male humans?

[Wittand25]

For several simple reasons Garrus or anyone else from ME2 will most likely not be available for a new romance regardless of Shepard´s sex.

First from a story point of view a new romance would need to progress differently than a carry over romance since there is no large enough time gap between ME2 and ME3. This does not apply to the ME1 LIs since they have been separated from Shepard for more than two years after a very short romance, so even a carry over romance would progress slowly and contain a lot of getting to know each other again dialog. So it is perfectly possible to write the romances for the ME1 crew in ME2 in a way that allows them to work for both old and new players, for which only the initial dialog depends on whether a romance in ME1 was active. ( I am not saying that this will happen only that it is more easily done)

Second ME3 is supposed to come with a Genesis-comic for all platforms that allows to pick LIs. this means if you have an unromanced Garrus/Miranda/Tali in ME3 it is because you either choose not to romance them in your import file or if you start a new game because you did not pick them in the comic. ME2 on the other hand came without Genesis initially, so that now there are a lot of Shepard´s who did not have the choice whether they want a romance with the ME1 characters. Forcing the player to abandon their personal safegame and start a new game in ME3 with the comic if they want to experience this content.

The first point favors to open up the VS for s/s romances, while the second actually speaks against it since default ME2 does not make it possible to have MShep and Kaidan alive at the same time. The best choice would be to allow a new romance with Kaidan/Ashley/Liara regardless of Shepard´s sex and provide additional options for both o/s and s/s romances by adding a new bisexual male and a new bisexual female companion. ME2 LIs should have additional dialog if you import a romance but should not be available again for any Shepard.

Modifié par Wittand25, 06 août 2011 - 11:59 .

[Jimmy Fury]

Clonedzero your argument contradicts itself.
If you were only arguing that all romances with Garrus are stupid then I might fully agree with you, but you seem to draw a distinction between the femshep romance being just stupid and the potential for a s/s romance being completely absurd because Garrus is heterosexual...
And quite frankly you can't have both.
You're right. Garrus is an alien with a completely incompatible biology. Which means all human romances would be equally illogical.
Human females share no secondary sexual characteristics with Turian females. Turians have no breasts, no hair, and (from what could be gleamed from the Comic) are physically almost identical to males with the clear exception of no fringe. So no, Garrus being attracted to opposite sex turians would not make it any more logical that he would be attracted to opposite sex humans. There is no physical similarity at all.

The argument that he would be attracted to a female personality could hold water IF we were talking about two different people with two different expressions of gender and personality.
We're not.
We're talking about Shepard. Shepard's personality depends on player choices not Shepard's gender. Male and Female Shepard get all of the same non-romance options. One can play 2 differently sexed Shepards with the exact same personality.

So your arguments contradict each other. If you want to argue that Garrus having a relationship with a human is illogical then it is equally illogical whether it's male or female since Shepard is always Shepard.
If that's the case then a s/s option should be included because the FemShep option has already set a precedent for Garrus to have an illogical human relationship and extending that to M!Shep is only fair.

Personally I agree that all human romances with Garrus are stupid. I wouldn't play through a s/s romance with him even if it was the only one in the game.
But your argument of scale is just wrong. One version isn't more or less logical than the other. Claiming the opposite sex version is stupid-but-acceptable and the s/s version is not in any way acceptable DOES imply that your issue is less with the species and more with the sexuality.
So people are going to be rightfully defensive.
Also using the word "pandering" broke your credibility early on.

[Arik7]

Just uploaded a vid of my gay Shepard. Check it out guys: www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Arik7, 06 août 2011 - 04:38 .

[Clonedzero]

well, putting in illogical romances that make absolutely no sense in context with the story kinda is pandering. if that word bothers you then well i dunno.

yeah, ive been arguing that alien romances (aside from asari) make very little sense, especially with turians being as they look nothing like a human.

if you read my post when i was talking about how female shep and garrus makes alittle more sense than male shep, i never mentioned personality or behavior. i mentioned that its the mere fact that she is a female is what makes him see her as a female. maleshep being a male, he looks at him as a male. if garrus is straight (which is safe to assume he is) even if the personalities are the same, the very idea wouldnt cross his mind unless its femshep. which is a fairly rational conclusion.

now don't get me wrong, i hate the fact garrus is a romance option at all. i'm not saying "its stupid but acceptable" im saying both are really really stupid and unacceptable, however the femshep and garrus romance is already in the game, so i have to accept it. thats all.

you guys really do take everything super personally, huh? simply because they dont want a character changed to be gay doesnt make the person a homophobe or gay basher or anything.

i mean imagine if they were going to make another star wars movie and in this one han solo is gay. it'd be random and stupid, right? yeah. oh gay with chewie too, just to make it apply more to the specific convo at hand

[Erani]

Interspecies romance/sex honestly makes no sense to me, lore wise (except Asari; according to lore they mate with pretty much anyone, not sure about hanar) so going from there, alien sexy time in ME2 is clearly fanservice. Now, is that bad?...Dunno, probably not. Tali and Garrus are beloved characters, so if people want to romance them, why not? It doesn't hurt anything or anyone else's roleplaying...Just take those cases as a rare exception, and that's it.

Now, what I cannot understand is why someone would be fine with straight interspecies sex but not same-sex? So if some dude falls for a female monkey, that's fine, but human dude + dude monkey oh noes that's too much!!! And yes, it doesn't matter if they can talk and have similar social structure as humans, they belong to another species! So seriously, I have not seen one strong argument that justifies straight interspecies good, gay bad. Not a one. That doesn't mean I personally want Garrus as same-sex LI. Sex with FemShep was so weird, and it'd be the same with MShep  I just cannot imagine how that works what with "ingest" and "chafing"--->even if MShep is the eh dominant *cough* there's the mandibles and, just  but whatever if ManShep wants to give it a try, it's not much different from FemShep's situation.

[Russalka]

Is anyone asking for them to be made gay?

Modifié par Russalka, 06 août 2011 - 05:05 .

[Wittand25]

Clonedzero wrote...i mean imagine if they were going to make another star wars movie and in this one han solo is gay. it'd be random and stupid, right? yeah. oh gay with chewie too, just to make it apply more to the specific convo at hand

Considering that (one of) Carrie Fisher´s husbands turned out to be gay, having the husband of princess Leia come out would be actually quite funny in an art mirrors life way.

[Dhiro]

I don't see any problem with gay Han Solo or gay Chewie. Besides, Star Wars fans rage about everything, I don't think anyone still listen to them.

[shepskisaac]

Arik7 wrote...

Just uploaded a vid of my gay Shepard. Check it out guys: www.youtube.com/watch

Love it <333 Getting so sad at the end

[Jimmy Fury]

Clonedzero wrote...

well, putting in illogical romances that make absolutely no sense in context with the story kinda is pandering. if that word bothers you then well i dunno.

The word "pandering" has an inherently negative conotation. That's not personal, it's the history of the word.
Also the subjectivity of what you're saying is important. It doesn't make sense to you. It very clearly makes perfect sense to other people.
Combine the two and you're, very literally, saying Bioware will be wh*ring it's game out if they don't agree with you... Yes that tends to bother people.

if you read my post when i was talking about how female shep and garrus makes alittle more sense than male shep, i never mentioned personality or behavior. i mentioned that its the mere fact that she is a female is what makes him see her as a female. maleshep being a male, he looks at him as a male. if garrus is straight (which is safe to assume he is) even if the personalities are the same, the very idea wouldnt cross his mind unless its femshep. which is a fairly rational conclusion.

I did read it and that's what I said was contradictory. You're justifying the relationship between FemShep and Garrus. In order to do that you must argue some sort of attraction to a human. Without some attraction Shepard's sex would be irrelivant because Garrus wouldn't be interested in either version.

you guys really do take everything super personally, huh? simply because they dont want a character changed to be gay doesnt make the person a homophobe or gay basher or anything.

Nobody has ever suggested that.
Gay and bisexual, contrary to what some people think, are two very different things. Nobody is suggesting anyone be "made gay"

ETA: I feel i should clarify something real quick.
I absolutely agree with you about the Garrus romance being stupid. I feel the same way about Talimance. The dextro thing just makes them awkward as romances. It makes intimacy dangerous between Shepard and either of them, especially tali, which makes the whole prospect strike me as disturbingly selfish.
It also kind of forces the idea that 2 people of opposite sexes can't be close friends without it turning romantic. I hate that kind of stuff. I would LOVE for ME3 to open with Garrus/Tali giving Shep the "Let's just be friends" speech.

The only thing I disagree with you about is the way you're arguing your point. 
I think if we're forced to accept the logic-defying femShep romance just because it's there then we have to also accept the potentially for an equally logic-defying romance with MaleShep. Not saying it would be good, just that the potential is already there.

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 06 août 2011 - 06:02 .

[Abispa]

Russalka wrote...

Is anyone asking for them to be made gay?

Only if they have the "no gay" toggle. If that's the case, there should be three settings: 1) "no-s/s" game, 2) actual game with player's choice, and 3) "gay as hell" with s/s and unrelenting ninjamancing.

[ArawnNox]

Abispa wrote...

Russalka wrote...

Is anyone asking for them to be made gay?

Only if they have the "no gay" toggle. If that's the case, there should be three settings: 1) "no-s/s" game, 2) actual game with player's choice, and 3) "gay as hell" with s/s and unrelenting ninjamancing.

I want option 3 so the guns shoot rainbows and everyone wears bright pink and everything is covered in glitter!

[Cathey]

I saw someone who looked like Vega today wearing nowt but undies. Shame I didn't have my camera on me, I think some of you may have enjoyed that. (I've just got home from Pride - thats what a lot of the guys were wearing lol!)

I think BioWare sent a look-alike to a British gay pride as a sneaky way of confirming Vega s/s

(Well at least thats how it works in my head anyway)

[Eamon696]

How many S/S LIs do you guys want? One for each gender? All LIs to be available for romance?

[Ryzaki]

I just want two m/m options and two f/f.

Joker & Vega for M/M, Liara & New chick for F/F.

[Abispa]

Eamon696 wrote...

How many S/S LIs do you guys want? One for each gender? All LIs to be available for romance?

How many do "us guys" want? Hmm. Hard to say.

There are gays here. There are lesbians here. There are bisexuals here. There are straight males here (I am one). There are straight women here. Strangely enough, we do not all want the same thing.

We aren't forcing Bioware to do anything. Like all fans we have made suggestions to improve the game from our perspective and in this one case Bioware has agreed to give players the OPTION to have a s/s romance. Since no names and information has been given on who the s/s options are going to be, each fan who wants s/s romances has expressed their desire to see their favorites become s/s.

If Bioware DOESN'T give us the option to pick certain characters, that is their perogative since it is their characters and their game. Arguments break out between s/s critics and s/s supporters about whether it is established lore that certain characters CAN or CANNOT be interested in s/s options.

My own perspective is that ALL LIs who can have relationships start in ME3 should be bi options and that it should be standard in all future Bioware games. That need not make all LIs bisexual, just available to the main character unless there is some story based reason why a character cannot be romanced by a certain gender, race, or religion. Any previously introduced LIs are completely up to Bioware, but I will not consider it a dreaded game breaking retcon if Garrus or Kasumi are suddenly s/s options.

Modifié par Abispa, 06 août 2011 - 09:05 .

[Jimmy Fury]

Ryzaki wrote...

I just want two m/m options and two f/f.

Joker & Vega for M/M, Liara & New chick for F/F.

Ditto.
That exact group.
It hits all my preference buttons.
-Trilogy-long storylines
-Variety. I was never a big Zevran fan and it sucked that he was the only m/m option in Origins... until I learned about the mods of course.
-Existing romances are left alone.No seperate-but-equal storylines and minimized moaning about alleged retcons that aren't actually retcons.
-Joker.

Sadly we'll probably end up with the VS instead of Joker but I can still hope.

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 06 août 2011 - 09:22 .

[shepskisaac]

Kaidan & Vega. Short & simple.

Wittand25 wrote...

For several simple reasons Garrus or
anyone else from ME2 will most likely not be available for a new romance
regardless of Shepard´s sex.

Agree with all reasons but the main one is different IMO. It would be just too much work. Think about it, what we already know they will do in ME3 romance-wise:
- 9 continuations of old romances
- minimum 2 new s/s romances
- triangle/cheating/confrontation scenes with all the different variables from 9 existing romances

It's already TONS of work, 11 different romance scenarios (without even considering cheating scenarios). And that's absolute minimum they will do. Most likely VS (or at least Kaidan) will also be available for s/s romance and Vega/new female will have straight romances as well. Then there's Joker also very likely to have at least straight romance. If with all of this already on plate, they also wanted to create new straight romances for all 9 old LIs if the players didn't romance them in ME1/2, the number of different romance scenarios would be over 20 or more. Just ridiculous. That's the reason I doubt anyone who had an option to be a LI will be available for a new romance, VS s/s romance being an exception since s/s romance option wasn't possible in ME1. But with straight romances, the game will assume you've already turned that person down or wasn't interested when the option was there.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 06 août 2011 - 09:41 .

[Chun Hei]

I thought Joker's VA already said he recorded romance dialog for ME3? I could be wrong or it could have just been an internet rumor that would SURPRISE me if it was not true. If Joker becomes a new ME3 LI I would be SHOCKED if he were not available for both genders.

P.S. -- Garrus will be very happy to stay with his female Korean Shepard, but if he becomes s/s option I WILL happily make him swing both ways.

Modifié par Chun Hei, 06 août 2011 - 09:37 .