25715 réponses à ce sujet

[ElitePinecone]

Twizz089 wrote...

Its silly and unbelievable to have characters changing their sexual preference based on the sex of the player.

Why? They aren't real. In one 'unverse', character x doesn't like the player, in another universe they do. Both are equally valid. 

The potential for a character to be something based on player choice doesn't make that an inherent and implicit part of their character. 

It's only 'silly and unbelievable' when you view it from the outside. From an in-universe perspective it's completely valid for each disparate playthrough. 

[LiquidGrape]

The Uncanny wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...

Its silly and unbelievable to have characters changing their sexual preference based on the sex of the player.

Why? It's a game. It's ALL silly and unbelievable.

Not to mention the fact that it wouldn't be so much "changing" as "expanding".

I'd say the jury's out on the subject of any one character's sexuality, but apparently millenia-old self-aware mecha-bugs falls within the purview of reason, whereas the possibility of Miranda being fond of clam chowder defies any measure of believability.

[BlueMagitek]

During the SM Shepard was accidently doused with Reaper pheremones.  Anyone in contact with Shepard for varying periods of time begin to find themselves viewing Shepard as an object of lust regardless of their normal behavior. 

Slightly more serious, I am a tad annoyed with everyone after the PC if they've shown tendancies elsewhere, but so long as you can easily deny romantic involvement and still engage in a friendship, I think I'm good.

[Abispa]

I'm not going to argue that s/s LIs AREN'T "silly and unbelievable," I'm just going to point out that I consider it so very sad that there are people out there who actually consider the REST of the game to be "serious and realistic." Their lives must be so incredibly twisted that it all seems "normal," or their lives must be empty and meaningless that they have nothing to draw on for comparison.

[Arik7]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...

Its silly and unbelievable to have characters changing their sexual preference based on the sex of the player.

Why? They aren't real. In one 'unverse', character x doesn't like the player, in another universe they do. Both are equally valid. 

Tali isn't real??? 

[Twizz089]

The Uncanny wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...

Its silly and unbelievable to have characters changing their sexual preference based on the sex of the player.

Why? It's a game. It's ALL silly and unbelievable.

A game that is suppose to make the player believe that they are in a living breathing world.  Making it so that you can wave a magic wand and make every character fall in love with you takes away from the immersion.  Thats part of the reason why the characters in Dragon Age 2 were a bust, they changed who they were based on who YOU were.  That doesnt help to develop convincing characters.  The best characters in the Mass Effect series are the ones that say "No Shep, I have my own hopes and dreams, Im not just going to mold myself to fit what you want"  (Wrex and  Liara, and their refusal to join you.  Tali and Zeed and their reactions to how to you handle their loyalty missions.  The weaker characters were the ones that molded their thinking and went along with whatever shep believed was right. 

[Abispa]

Arik7 wrote...

Tali isn't real??? 

No, she is merely a shadow. You see, the entire universe is a dark cave, and within is a fire that casts light onto perfect objects and projects a shadow on the wall that can be perceived by people whose gaze is fixed on the wall and never able to take in the hidden universe around them...

[ScotGaymer]

Twizz089 wrote...

Its silly and unbelievable to have characters changing their sexual preference based on the sex of the player.

Not really.

Maybe in "real life" it would be unrealistic but for a game? Its not all that unrealistic.

And from a writing standpoint its pretty clever.

And despite the hatred the terms "whoever"-sexual (HummelSexual, HawkeSexual, PotterSexual, whatever) to describe ordinarily heterosexual characters being interested in someone of the same sex engenders it actually DOES happen in real life.

I can even cite an example from my own life.

I knew a guy once (he was hot fancied him like feck lol) who had a straight boyfriend. At first I thought the guy (my friend) was having me on. Then I thought his boyfriend was just in denial and couldnt admit to being bisexual.
But I sat and had a conversation with the boyfriend about it and he explained ot me that he had never looked at a guy once prior to meeting my friend and he developed what he called a bit of a ManCrush on my mate after they became friends. So he ignored it thinking it i was nothing more than momentary curiousity; they were mates for years and then he sorta realised one day that he was in love wi my mate.
His exact words to me were "i suppose that makes me bisexual but hes the only guy im interested in, and i still identify myself as straight".
So it wasnt a fear of actually saying it.

Weird as it is, it happens.

[Twizz089]

Mash Mashington wrote...

Oh my. Waving a magic wand and resurrecting a person who's been dead for 2 years is perfectly believable then?

Im not arguing the "science" of the game, the rules that the creater has defined as true.  I am arguing that the player should not hold the power to change the personalities of everyone around him.

[Zjarcal]

Twizz089 wrote...


A game that is suppose to make the player believe that they are in a living breathing world.  Making it so that you can wave a magic wand and make every character fall in love with you takes away from the immersion.  Thats part of the reason why the characters in Dragon Age 2 were a bust, they changed who they were based on who YOU were.  That doesnt help to develop convincing characters.  

*facepalm*

How many times does it need to be said that the characters DO NOT change based on your gender? They are all bi beacuse they're bi, it's not based on Hawke's gender.

But eh, I believe that ship has sailed with some people.

[ScotGaymer]

Zjarcal wrote...

*facepalm*

How many times does it need to be said that the characters DO NOT change based on your gender? They are all bi beacuse they're bi, it's not based on Hawke's gender.

But eh, I believe that ship has sailed with some people.

Did you read my earlier post?

I already refuted the "everyone in DA2 is bi" arguement. Its fail.

They are not all bi.

And Yes they DO change based on your gender. Anders is het if you are Female. And Fenris and Merill are always HawkeSexual.

@Twizz. I think you need to look up the meaning off Sexuality.

It is not an aspect of personality.

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 10 août 2011 - 02:48 .

[Arik7]

Twizz089 wrote...

The Uncanny wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...

Its silly and unbelievable to have characters changing their sexual preference based on the sex of the player.

Why? It's a game. It's ALL silly and unbelievable.

A game that is suppose to make the player believe that they are in a living breathing world.  Making it so that you can wave a magic wand and make every character fall in love with you takes away from the immersion.  Thats part of the reason why the characters in Dragon Age 2 were a bust, they changed who they were based on who YOU were.  That doesnt help to develop convincing characters.  The best characters in the Mass Effect series are the ones that say "No Shep, I have my own hopes and dreams, Im not just going to mold myself to fit what you want"  (Wrex and  Liara, and their refusal to join you.  Tali and Zeed and their reactions to how to you handle their loyalty missions.  The weaker characters were the ones that molded their thinking and went along with whatever shep believed was right. 

Did you actually play DA2?   DA2 characters had their own morals and strong convictions.  Some of them even attack you if you pick the "wrong" side.  Some characters, such as Aveline, are not interested in you.

With that said, it's not realitic for the player to have only one choice of LI or none, regardless of your sexual orientation.  DA2 had the most resourse efficient and most importantly, fun, romance system with 2 LIs for a player of every gender and orientation.  It's still too few to be "realistic," but it's understandable considering production costs.

Modifié par Arik7, 10 août 2011 - 02:49 .

[bleetman]

Twizz089 wrote...

The weaker characters were the ones that molded their thinking and went along with whatever shep believed was right. 

What, you mean every single character on your team?

Modifié par bleetman, 10 août 2011 - 02:48 .

[Abispa]

Twizz089 wrote...

The Uncanny wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...

Its silly and unbelievable to have characters changing their sexual preference based on the sex of the player.

Why? It's a game. It's ALL silly and unbelievable.

A game that is suppose to make the player believe that they are in a living breathing world.  Making it so that you can wave a magic wand and make every character fall in love with you takes away from the immersion.  Thats part of the reason why the characters in Dragon Age 2 were a bust, they changed who they were based on who YOU were.  That doesnt help to develop convincing characters.  The best characters in the Mass Effect series are the ones that say "No Shep, I have my own hopes and dreams, Im not just going to mold myself to fit what you want"  (Wrex and  Liara, and their refusal to join you.  Tali and Zeed and their reactions to how to you handle their loyalty missions.  The weaker characters were the ones that molded their thinking and went along with whatever shep believed was right. 

Your argument may have held up if EVERY character is in love with Hawke, but they all aren't. The characters designated as LI are, and they make up less than half the cast. The rest of the party members don't need a Bioware created excuse to keep them out of the party so they won't be romancable, and they're still willing and able to fight along side Hawke. In that regard DA2 is actually "more realistic" than ME because Hawke can actually be shot down, unlike Shepard.

DA2 kicks ME2's butt in another regard. Hawke can continue to converse with and develop a relationship with characters EVEN AFTER s/he romances someone else. In ME2 the conversations abruptly cease and the party members being calibrating a hell of a lot sooner than they would otherwise.

[Twizz089]

Mash Mashington wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...

Mash Mashington wrote...

Oh my. Waving a magic wand and resurrecting a person who's been dead for 2 years is perfectly believable then?

Im not arguing the "science" of the game, the rules that the creater has defined as true.  I am arguing that the player should not hold the power to change the personalities of everyone around him.

The player does not change them, the writers do

Also changing sexuality can hardly be equaled to changing personality

If I am male, all the guys are gay and if Im a female all the guys will be straight?  That sounds like personalities changing based on player choice to me, and yes sexuality is apart of who a person is thus make it part of their personality

[Arik7]

Twizz089 wrote...

Mash Mashington wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...

Mash Mashington wrote...

Oh my. Waving a magic wand and resurrecting a person who's been dead for 2 years is perfectly believable then?

Im not arguing the "science" of the game, the rules that the creater has defined as true.  I am arguing that the player should not hold the power to change the personalities of everyone around him.

The player does not change them, the writers do

Also changing sexuality can hardly be equaled to changing personality

If I am male, all the guys are gay and if Im a female all the guys will be straight?  That sounds like personalities changing based on player choice to me, and yes sexuality is apart of who a person is thus make it part of their personality

Not "all the guys are gay", but rather, you have a choice of 1, maybe 2 LIs even if you are gay. It's not exactly a gay paradise.

Modifié par Arik7, 10 août 2011 - 02:52 .

[The Uncanny]

Twizz089 wrote...

A game that is suppose to make the player believe that they are in a living breathing world.  Making it so that you can wave a magic wand and make every character fall in love with you takes away from the immersion.  Thats part of the reason why the characters in Dragon Age 2 were a bust, they changed who they were based on who YOU were.  That doesnt help to develop convincing characters.  The best characters in the Mass Effect series are the ones that say "No Shep, I have my own hopes and dreams, Im not just going to mold myself to fit what you want"  (Wrex and  Liara, and their refusal to join you.  Tali and Zeed and their reactions to how to you handle their loyalty missions.  The weaker characters were the ones that molded their thinking and went along with whatever shep believed was right. 

The 'strength' of a character comes from good writing. I'd argue that several of the characters you listed are very poorly written in comparison to most of the Dragon Age 2 characters. Which clearly makes their 'value' subjective and not defined. You can believe that those characters demonstrate this ill-defined sense of immersion, but unless we all interpret them in the same way then they don't.

[LiquidGrape]

Twizz089 wrote...

A game that is suppose to make the player believe that they are in a living breathing world.  Making it so that you can wave a magic wand and make every character fall in love with you takes away from the immersion.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, but I think I can safely say no such device has ever been present in a BioWare game. There's been a lot of wand-waving bringing people back from the (supposedly) dead, though.

Thats part of the reason why the characters in Dragon Age 2 were a bust, they changed who they were based on who YOU were.  That doesnt help to develop convincing characters.

Wrong, and rather misguided wrong. Their sexualities didn't change, because they were innately capable of being attracted to Hawke regardless of his or her sex. I don't see any legitimate grounds for casting aspersions on that aspect.
As for their development as personalities, yes, that was something which Hawke could, at best, partially influence. But isn't that part of the whole roleplaying-shtick? I suspect fans will break down the doors of BioWare headquarters the day they make a game wherein the player character is unable to suggest, persuade, coerce or manipulate those around her/him.
Now, that doesn't detract from the characterisation. If anything, it adds to it in the sense that you learn about them judging by how they react to how you approach them.
If the writing holds up, of course, and I wouldn't hesitate in saying that I believe DA2 had some of BioWare's most fully rounded characters to date. But that's a personal assessment, and I accept it as such.

The best characters in the Mass Effect series are the ones that say "No Shep, I have my own hopes and dreams, Im not just going to mold myself to fit what you want"  (Wrex and  Liara, and their refusal to join you.  Tali and Zeed and their reactions to how to you handle their loyalty missions.  The weaker characters were the ones that molded their thinking and went along with whatever shep believed was right.

Again, you do not seem to make a distinction between sexuality and personality. Suggesting that sexuality is a cognitive process which you can somehow subvert the same way one can fool someone into accepting a lie as though it was truth doesn't really add up to a great argument.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 10 août 2011 - 02:58 .

[Twizz089]

Arik7 wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...

The Uncanny wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...

Its silly and unbelievable to have characters changing their sexual preference based on the sex of the player.

Why? It's a game. It's ALL silly and unbelievable.

A game that is suppose to make the player believe that they are in a living breathing world.  Making it so that you can wave a magic wand and make every character fall in love with you takes away from the immersion.  Thats part of the reason why the characters in Dragon Age 2 were a bust, they changed who they were based on who YOU were.  That doesnt help to develop convincing characters.  The best characters in the Mass Effect series are the ones that say "No Shep, I have my own hopes and dreams, Im not just going to mold myself to fit what you want"  (Wrex and  Liara, and their refusal to join you.  Tali and Zeed and their reactions to how to you handle their loyalty missions.  The weaker characters were the ones that molded their thinking and went along with whatever shep believed was right. 

Did you actually play DA2?   DA2 characters had their own morals and strong convictions.  Some of them even attack you if you pick the "wrong" side.  Some characters, such as Aveline, are not interested in you.

With that said, it's not realitic for the player to have only one choice of LI or none, regardless of your sexual orientation.  DA2 had the most resourse efficient and most importantly, fun, romance system with 2 LIs for a player of every gender and orientation.  It's still too few to be "realistic," but it's understandable considering production costs.

If the characters truly had their own morals they would not change their sexuality based on my choices.

" it's not realitic for the player to have only one choice of LI or none, regardless of your sexual orientation"

So its more realistic for the characters to be bi or straight or gay depending on who you as the player play as?

"DA2 had the most resourse efficient and most importantly, fun, romance system "

DA2 had the most unbelievable romance system.  It felt like a big orgy, Everyone was throwing themselves at me.

[Abispa]

bleetman wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...

The weaker characters were the ones that molded their thinking and went along with whatever shep believed was right. 

What, you mean every single character on your team?

Well, you gotta admit that pretty much the entire cast of ME2 were liquid squeeze bags with self esteem problems or minimal social skills. And DAMN, did Shepard want to be the new Oprah or what?

[ScotGaymer]

Twizz089 wrote...

If I am male, all the guys are gay and if Im a female all the guys will be straight?  That sounds like personalities changing based on player choice to me, and yes sexuality is apart of who a person is thus make it part of their personality

As a gay man I find this hugely offensive, ignorant, and rude.

I can assure you categorically that as a Gay it is NOT an aspect of my personality. AT ALL.

It is a genetic fact that Ihave no choice in and no control over. I like blokes and all that entails. This has help shape my personality I admit but it isnt who i am.
The assumption that Gay is all I am; that I am somehow no longer a man or whatever is offensive.

I am a man who happens to be gay.

[Twizz089]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...

A game that is suppose to make the player believe that they are in a living breathing world.  Making it so that you can wave a magic wand and make every character fall in love with you takes away from the immersion.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, but I think I can safely say no such device has ever been present in a BioWare game. There's been a lot of wand-waving bringing people back from the (supposedly) dead, though.

Thats part of the reason why the characters in Dragon Age 2 were a bust, they changed who they were based on who YOU were.  That doesnt help to develop convincing characters.

Wrong, and rather misguided wrong. Their sexualities didn't change, because they were innately capable of being attracted to Hawke regardless of his or her sex. I don't see any legitimate grounds for casting aspersions on that aspect.
As for their development as personalities, yes, that was something which Hawke could partially influence. But isn't that part of the whole roleplaying-shtick? I suspect fans will break down the doors of BioWare headquarters the day they make a game wherein the player character is unable to suggest, persuade, coerce or manipulate those around her/him.

The best characters in the Mass Effect series are the ones that say "No Shep, I have my own hopes and dreams, Im not just going to mold myself to fit what you want"  (Wrex and  Liara, and their refusal to join you.  Tali and Zeed and their reactions to how to you handle their loyalty missions.  The weaker characters were the ones that molded their thinking and went along with whatever shep believed was right.

Again, you do not seem to make a distinction between sexuality and personality. Suggesting that sexuality is a cognitive process which you can somehow subvert the same way one can fool someone into accepting a lie as though it was truth doesn't really add up to a great argument.

What a bolded proves my point more then it proves yours.  I dont think that sexuality is a cognitive process one can subvert, which is why it shouldnt change based on the player.

[Sunnie]

Twizz089 wrote...
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You do realize this is a "video game" with role playing "elements", yes?  Why are you so hellbent on "realism"? I didn't see the term "simulation" anywhere in the series' description.  If you don't want to be the center of attention in the game, maybe you are playig the wrong games?  /ponder