25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Abispa]

Twizz089 wrote...

DA2 had the most unbelievable romance system.  It felt like a big orgy, Everyone was throwing themselves at me.

And with that last line you've demostrated that you are either a troll or a person who so amazingly confused that debating becomes a waste of time.

Isabela is the only one who "throws" herself at Hawke. Anders can prematurely assume Hawke is interested in him IF IF IF Hawke is STUPID and says nothing but nice things to him AFTER HE LEADS HAWKE INTO AN AMBUSH WHERE S/HE IS FORCED TO KILL TEMPLARS IN THE CHANTRY. Anders does not assume Hawke is interested if the responses are sarcastic or angry (which are the believable ones for players trying to be "realistic").

However, NONE of the characters will attempt to sleep with Hawke unless Hawke explicitly flirts with them. Nor do they try to make you feel bad about being friendly with someone else unless Hawke is explicitly choosing to play the field. Again this is better written, and more "realistic" than the ME series where Shepard has to beat half of his/her gang back with a stick.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Twizz089 wrote...

If the characters truly had their own morals they would not change their sexuality based on my choices.

" it's not realitic for the player to have only one choice of LI or none, regardless of your sexual orientation"

So its more realistic for the characters to be bi or straight or gay depending on who you as the player play as?

"DA2 had the most resourse efficient and most importantly, fun, romance system "

DA2 had the most unbelievable romance system.  It felt like a big orgy, Everyone was throwing themselves at me.

1) If Male Shepard can suddenly gain interest in men (something that was impossible in the previous two games due to limitations), I'm not sure why anyone would object to other characters also "coming out" so to speak.

2) I'm not sure if any of the characters are straight because they believe homosexuality is morally incorrect.  I'd certainly hope not.  It's perfectly fine and natural to prefer the opposite sex based on attraction, and not because they think the alternative is wrong.

3) I'm not sure how you think everyone in DA2 was coming onto you.  Anders comes on to you if you are super nice to him, so does Izzy (to a slightly lesser degree).  This was a character trait, not Bioware forcing bisexuality down your throat.  Fenris and Merrill will not pursue a relationship unless you as a player initiate it, not to mention that certain romances will effectively cancel out the others.  So where are you coming up with this whole "big orgy" deal?

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 10 août 2011 - 03:15 .

[MACharlie1]

I've always thought that perhaps returning love interests who will be available to same-sex this time around should get an extra line of dialog to "persuade" them into the relationship. There's no denying that on a sexuality spectrum, Kaidan and Ashley fall on the hetero side - and by that I mean both will pursue the opposite sex but they would go for the same sex if there was a connection.

And then respectively, the new love interests have it the opposite.

[Siansonea]

Twizz089 wrote...

Arik7 wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...

A game that is suppose to make the player believe that they are in a living breathing world.  Making it so that you can wave a magic wand and make every character fall in love with you takes away from the immersion.  Thats part of the reason why the characters in Dragon Age 2 were a bust, they changed who they were based on who YOU were.  That doesnt help to develop convincing characters.  The best characters in the Mass Effect series are the ones that say "No Shep, I have my own hopes and dreams, Im not just going to mold myself to fit what you want"  (Wrex and  Liara, and their refusal to join you.  Tali and Zeed and their reactions to how to you handle their loyalty missions.  The weaker characters were the ones that molded their thinking and went along with whatever shep believed was right. 

Did you actually play DA2?   DA2 characters had their own morals and strong convictions.  Some of them even attack you if you pick the "wrong" side.  Some characters, such as Aveline, are not interested in you.

With that said, it's not realitic for the player to have only one choice of LI or none, regardless of your sexual orientation.  DA2 had the most resourse efficient and most importantly, fun, romance system with 2 LIs for a player of every gender and orientation.  It's still too few to be "realistic," but it's understandable considering production costs.

If the characters truly had their own morals they would not change their sexuality based on my choices.

"it's not realitic for the player to have only one choice of LI or none, regardless of your sexual orientation"

So its more realistic for the characters to be bi or straight or gay depending on who you as the player play as?

"DA2 had the most resourse efficient and most importantly, fun, romance system "

DA2 had the most unbelievable romance system.  It felt like a big orgy, Everyone was throwing themselves at me.

Bisexual characters don't change their sexuality. They are by nature attracted to both males and females. The only difference is the gender of the player character. That defines the relationship as gay or straight, but not the bisexual participant in that relationship. And it's all just labels anyway. 

And let's not hammer the "realism" issue too hard, since there are some appallingly unrealistic things in the story that for some reason get a handwave. Like DYING AND COMING BACK TO LIFE THROUGH MIRACLE SCIENCE—and no one caring. Like a Paragon Shepard cozying up to Cerberus and being the Illusive Man's pet Spectre. Like thermal clips on Aiea. Like Puree O' Humans Reaper Smoothies. And the list goes on. If we are really the phalanx standing firm on the issue of realism, geez, THIS is an odd place to take that stand. 

The fact is, all romances have to be triggered, and if you don't trigger them, there's no romance content. I can't count the number of times in my playthroughs that I completely ignored FemShep's lame pickup lines for Garrus and Thane. SO did not want those romances, but hey, whatever, some people liked them. No skin off my nose. My ManSheps had to dodge Tali's infatuation too. It was surprisingly easy to do.

The game did not break for me even though there were all these Unwanted Romance Opportunities hanging out on the dialogue wheel. I just had my Shepards romance the LI they were interested in, and keep in on a friendship level with the other characters. Except for my Renegade characters of course, who were douchey toward everyone except their LI of choice. 

[Twizz089]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...

If I am male, all the guys are gay and if Im a female all the guys will be straight?  That sounds like personalities changing based on player choice to me, and yes sexuality is apart of who a person is thus make it part of their personality

As a gay man I find this hugely offensive, ignorant, and rude.

I can assure you categorically that as a Gay it is NOT an aspect of my personality. AT ALL.

It is a genetic fact that Ihave no choice in and no control over. I like blokes and all that entails. This has help shape my personality I admit but it isnt who i am.
The assumption that Gay is all I am; that I am somehow no longer a man or whatever is offensive.

I am a man who happens to be gay.

I think you took that the wrong way.  In no way am I saying that being gay makes you less of a man.  The fact that you proudly announce that you are gay makes you more of a "man" then most men out there.

A personality can be defined as the combined emotional, social, physical, and mental, characteristics of every individual which define and characterize their behavior.  Sexual attraction is just as much an aspect of behavior as kindness or greed.  The fact that you have no choice over being gay or straight makes it more part of your personality then anything else.  If its not part of your personality, ifs not a behavioral trait, then what is it?

[Abispa]

My biggest gripe with the demand for "realism" in VG romances is that it is the reason given to deny s/s content. A LI can be written as weak, shallow, possessive, jealous, irrational, obsessed, and promiscuous, AND even be totally repulsed by everything you stand for but still be won over by "gifts," BUT it is only when the LI is the same gender that immersion is ruined (unless the hero is female -- HAWT HAWT HAWT).

Modifié par Abispa, 10 août 2011 - 03:21 .

[MACharlie1]

Twizz089 wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...

If I am male, all the guys are gay and if Im a female all the guys will be straight?  That sounds like personalities changing based on player choice to me, and yes sexuality is apart of who a person is thus make it part of their personality

As a gay man I find this hugely offensive, ignorant, and rude.

I can assure you categorically that as a Gay it is NOT an aspect of my personality. AT ALL.

It is a genetic fact that Ihave no choice in and no control over. I like blokes and all that entails. This has help shape my personality I admit but it isnt who i am.
The assumption that Gay is all I am; that I am somehow no longer a man or whatever is offensive.

I am a man who happens to be gay.

I think you took that the wrong way.  In no way am I saying that being gay makes you less of a man.  The fact that you proudly announce that you are gay makes you more of a "man" then most men out there.

A personality can be defined as the combined emotional, social, physical, and mental, characteristics of every individual which define and characterize their behavior.  Sexual attraction is just as much an aspect of behavior as kindness or greed.  The fact that you have no choice over being gay or straight makes it more part of your personality then anything else.  If its not part of your personality, ifs not a behavioral trait, then what is it?

If Kaidan and Ashley are bisexual, their personality will not change. Why? Because they were also bisexual in ME1. You act as if they will act totally differently. They are the same exact person. Just a little more open...*cough* 

In the greater scheme of things over the course of a LIFETIME everything influences personality. Ash/Kaidan are adults their personalities have been set in stone no matter what team they are batting for. 

[Maugrim]

They don't change.

They are all bisexual is DA2. Word of God:

David Gaider wrote....

"My point is that their actions don't change, yet some people are deciding that their inference is enough to suggest the characters alter their preferences at the player's whim. Even if they did, I'm not sure that would be a crime. Regardless, it's not the case."

Slight emphasis mine.

I really wish everyone would get this, especially the s/s supporters who really should know better at this point.  I mean I expect the trolls to be, well trolls after all! They aren't upset because of immersion or realism etc and this excuse is just a smoke screen.

Now eveyone enjoy these cookies.  I'm pretty sure they are bi-tasty!

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 10 août 2011 - 03:32 .

[Twizz089]

Abispa wrote...

My biggest gripe with the demand for "realism" in VG romances is that it is the reason given to deny s/s content. A LI can be written as weak, shallow, possessive, jealous, irrational, obsessed, and promiscuous, AND even be totally repulsed by everything you stand for but still be won over by "gifts," BUT it is only when the LI is the same gender that immersion is ruined (unless the hero is female -- HAWT HAWT HAWT).

I can see I didnt do a good enough job stating my stance on the issue.  I WANT s/s content.  I want there to be  characters in the game that reject the main character because they are gay or because they are straight.  What I dont want is the Dragon Age 2 solution of making everyone bi.  This is a cheap band aid fix to the problem.  I want an immersive romance system where characters reject the main character simply because they dont like his personality or because they only like men or only like women.  I want sexuality to be used as a tool to build more beliveable characters, I dont want something as powerful as a person sexuality to be something that is interchangable.  I dont want the cheap fix.

[Siansonea]

Twizz089 wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...

If I am male, all the guys are gay and if Im a female all the guys will be straight?  That sounds like personalities changing based on player choice to me, and yes sexuality is apart of who a person is thus make it part of their personality

As a gay man I find this hugely offensive, ignorant, and rude.

I can assure you categorically that as a Gay it is NOT an aspect of my personality. AT ALL.

It is a genetic fact that Ihave no choice in and no control over. I like blokes and all that entails. This has help shape my personality I admit but it isnt who i am.
The assumption that Gay is all I am; that I am somehow no longer a man or whatever is offensive.

I am a man who happens to be gay.

I think you took that the wrong way.  In no way am I saying that being gay makes you less of a man.  The fact that you proudly announce that you are gay makes you more of a "man" then most men out there.

A personality can be defined as the combined emotional, social, physical, and mental, characteristics of every individual which define and characterize their behavior.  Sexual attraction is just as much an aspect of behavior as kindness or greed.  The fact that you have no choice over being gay or straight makes it more part of your personality then anything else.  If its not part of your personality, ifs not a behavioral trait, then what is it?

Funny, but we're actually talking about bisexual characters here, not gay/lesbian characters. If an existing character is open to romance to both Shepards, that character is bisexual. Not gay, not lesbian. So tell me, what "character traits" does a bisexual character have that a heterosexual character doesn't? What non-romance dialog moments in the last two games would be affected by the revelation that a character is and always has been bisexual to some extent? After all, bisexual does NOT mean "wants threesomes with a male and a female partner" as some people seem to believe. Being bisexual simply means that a person's gender is the overriding factor in sexual attraction. Being bisexual does not mean you hit on every man and woman you meet. A bisexual person might be attracted to 7 women and 2 men over a period of time. Or vice versa. 

[Rinji the Bearded]

makenzieshepard wrote...

They don't change.

They are all bisexual is DA2. Word of God:

David Gaider wrote....

"My point is that their actions don't change, yet some people are deciding that their inference is enough to suggest the characters alter their preferences at the player's whim. Even if they did, I'm not sure that would be a crime. Regardless, it's not the case."

Slight emphasis mine.

I really wish everyone would get this, especially the s/s supporters who really should know better at this point.  I mean I expect the trolls to be, well trolls after all! They aren't upset because of immersion or realism etc and this excuse is just a smoke screen.

Now eveyone enjoy these cookies.  I'm pretty sure they are bi-tasty!

*omnomnom cookies*

I was wondering where that Gaider quote was, thanks!  

I'm not sure how the ME writers are going to tackle this issue, but I guess we'll see.

[Maugrim]

RinjiRenee wrote...

I was wondering where that Gaider quote was, thanks!  

I'm not sure how the ME writers are going to tackle this issue, but I guess we'll see.

TBH if "subjective sexuality" opened up more characters to s/s romances then I am totally for it! Though I'd rather see such a thing done first with the more deft writing hands of the DA team.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 10 août 2011 - 03:43 .

[Twizz089]

Siansonea II wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...

If I am male, all the guys are gay and if Im a female all the guys will be straight?  That sounds like personalities changing based on player choice to me, and yes sexuality is apart of who a person is thus make it part of their personality

As a gay man I find this hugely offensive, ignorant, and rude.

I can assure you categorically that as a Gay it is NOT an aspect of my personality. AT ALL.

It is a genetic fact that Ihave no choice in and no control over. I like blokes and all that entails. This has help shape my personality I admit but it isnt who i am.
The assumption that Gay is all I am; that I am somehow no longer a man or whatever is offensive.

I am a man who happens to be gay.

I think you took that the wrong way.  In no way am I saying that being gay makes you less of a man.  The fact that you proudly announce that you are gay makes you more of a "man" then most men out there.

A personality can be defined as the combined emotional, social, physical, and mental, characteristics of every individual which define and characterize their behavior.  Sexual attraction is just as much an aspect of behavior as kindness or greed.  The fact that you have no choice over being gay or straight makes it more part of your personality then anything else.  If its not part of your personality, ifs not a behavioral trait, then what is it?

Funny, but we're actually talking about bisexual characters here, not gay/lesbian characters. If an existing character is open to romance to both Shepards, that character is bisexual. Not gay, not lesbian. So tell me, what "character traits" does a bisexual character have that a heterosexual character doesn't? What non-romance dialog moments in the last two games would be affected by the revelation that a character is and always has been bisexual to some extent? After all, bisexual does NOT mean "wants threesomes with a male and a female partner" as some people seem to believe. Being bisexual simply means that a person's gender is the overriding factor in sexual attraction. Being bisexual does not mean you hit on every man and woman you meet. A bisexual person might be attracted to 7 women and 2 men over a period of time. Or vice versa. 

Every LI in the game should not be bisexual its a cheap fix. Incase you missed what I posted earlier, ill repost it.
  I WANT s/s content.  I want there to be  characters in the game that reject the main character because they are gay or because they are straight.  What I dont want is the Dragon Age 2 solution of making everyone bi.  This is a cheap band aid fix to the problem.  I want an immersive romance system where characters reject the main character simply because they dont like his personality or because they only like men or only like women.  I want sexuality to be used as a tool to build more beliveable characters, I dont want something as powerful as a person sexuality to be something that is interchangable.  I dont want the cheap fix.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Twizz089 wrote...

I think you took that the wrong way.  In no way am I saying that being gay makes you less of a man.  The fact that you proudly announce that you are gay makes you more of a "man" then most men out there.

A personality can be defined as the combined emotional, social, physical, and mental, characteristics of every individual which define and characterize their behavior.  Sexual attraction is just as much an aspect of behavior as kindness or greed.  The fact that you have no choice over being gay or straight makes it more part of your personality then anything else.  If its not part of your personality, ifs not a behavioral trait, then what is it?

Funny that, everything you listed, including emotional, social, physical, and mental characteristics, are not stagnant characterstics at all (ie, they vary and change over the span of a lifetime, many times without conscious choosing).  Are you insinuating that a person's personality and characteristics can never change, and that no one has ever come to a sudden realization about themselves, becoming aware of something that they were previously unaware of?

THAT is the definition of unrealistic.

Every LI in the game should not be bisexual its a cheap fix. Incase you missed what I posted earlier, ill repost it.
 
I WANT s/s content.  I want there to be  characters in the game that
reject the main character because they are gay or because they are
straight.  What I dont want is the Dragon Age 2 solution of making
everyone bi.  This is a cheap band aid fix to the problem.  I want an
immersive romance system where characters reject the main character
simply because they dont like his personality or because they only like
men or only like women.  I want sexuality to be used as a tool to build
more beliveable characters, I dont want something as powerful as a
person sexuality to be something that is interchangable.  I dont want
the cheap fix.

Jade Empire did it first.  Every LI was bi except Dawn Star, including Sky, who was previously married to a woman, and also had a child with said woman.  He has the potential of falling in love with a male protagonist.  Everyone blaming DA2 for this whole "all bisexual LI" thing needs to stop pointing fingers, because DA2 hardly was the first game to do it.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 10 août 2011 - 03:51 .

[Twizz089]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...

I think you took that the wrong way.  In no way am I saying that being gay makes you less of a man.  The fact that you proudly announce that you are gay makes you more of a "man" then most men out there.

A personality can be defined as the combined emotional, social, physical, and mental, characteristics of every individual which define and characterize their behavior.  Sexual attraction is just as much an aspect of behavior as kindness or greed.  The fact that you have no choice over being gay or straight makes it more part of your personality then anything else.  If its not part of your personality, ifs not a behavioral trait, then what is it?

Funny that, everything you listed, including emotional, social, physical, and mental characteristics, are not stagnant characterstics at all (ie, they vary and change over the span of a lifetime, many times without conscious choosing).  Are you insinuating that a person's personality and characteristics can never change, and that no one has ever come to a sudden realization about themselves, becoming aware of something that they were previously unaware of?

THAT is the definition of unrealistic.

Are you insinuating that every person is bi or has yet to come out of the closet?

[upsettingshorts]

Twizz089 wrote...
Are you insinuating that every person is bi or has yet to come out of the closet?

Are you putting a new outfit on the same strawman?

[shepskisaac]

Twizz089 wrote...
What I dont want is the Dragon Age 2 solution of making everyone bi.

You can stop worrying now, it's already confirmed it won't happen and not everyone will be bi:
twitter.com/#!/CaseyDHudson/status/70154686367404032

Some game sites saying "previously straight chars now available for both
m&f chars" not necessarily true. Will have some new LI's in #ME3

[Rinji the Bearded]

Twizz089 wrote...

Are you insinuating that every person is bi or has yet to come out of the closet?

I am not fooled by you, Straw Man!

No where in my post did I insinuate that.  You merely insinuated that it was completely impossible for ANYONE to be bisexual/gay and to come to this realization later in their lives, because apparently it is a stagnant and crystal-clear personality trait that everyone can see.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 10 août 2011 - 03:56 .

[Clonedzero]

personally my biggest problem with the DA2 romances was that well, none of them were super likable.

isabella was a ****.
anders was nuts
merril was super cute and all but also stupid and naive.
fenris was a douchemachine

[syllogi]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...

Are you insinuating that every person is bi or has yet to come out of the closet?

I am not fooled by you, Straw Man!

No where in my post did I insinuate that.  You merely insinuated that it was completely impossible for ANYONE to be bisexual/gay and to come to this realization later in their lives.

Or they could just not talk about it, because it's not anyone's business who isn't a potential sexual partner or close personal friend.  Or maybe the character's personalities are not dictated by their sexual orientation.

I know, SHOCKING.

[Twizz089]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...

Are you insinuating that every person is bi or has yet to come out of the closet?

I am not fooled by you, Straw Man!

No where in my post did I insinuate that.  You merely insinuated that it was completely impossible for ANYONE to be bisexual/gay and to come to this realization later in their lives, because apparently it is a stagnant and crystal-clear personality trait that everyone can see.

No I insinuated that it is silly for EVERYONE  to be bisexual/gay and to come to this realization later in their lives

[Dhiro]

Clonedzero wrote...

personally my biggest problem with the DA2 romances was that well, none of them were super likable.

isabella was a ****.

In the name of the holy atheism, I'll never understand why people keep calling Isabela names that turn into three starts.

[Comsky159]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...

Its silly and unbelievable to have characters changing their sexual preference based on the sex of the player.

Why? They aren't real. In one 'unverse', character x doesn't like the player, in another universe they do. Both are equally valid. 

The potential for a character to be something based on player choice doesn't make that an inherent and implicit part of their character. 

It's only 'silly and unbelievable' when you view it from the outside. From an in-universe perspective it's completely valid for each disparate playthrough. 

It's an interesting point, because by saying this you actually dispute the very concept of canon in videogames altogether. You say that we should be able to control not only a character but the universe around him/her. I'm afraid there can be no middle ground here.

Our powers as the player in this game (and all decent games to my knowledge) resides undeniably over the single player-character, and while as the game progresses we may make indirect and highly structured adjustments to the universe through the indirect medium of Shepard, ultimately we are forbidden from  tinkering with other characters for our own gratification. Why? For the sake of narrative quality and continuity our agency must have limitations placed upon it. Directly altering more than one variable in the code is suicide for a developer, potentially reaching the point where the developer must essentially make an individual game for every single person who intends to play it.

On another note, I believe it's a mistake to try to say a playthrough is its own narrative. When you play ME do you, after making a choice, negate the existence of all the other possible choices? Can your playthrough really be a totally different game to my playthrough? I say no. I'm a believer in the more cybertextual approach towards ergodic literature, in that I try to see the mediating mechanism between player and the game, instead of a singular narrow pathway in amongst the millions of possible combinations. The difference between us is that as you play ME, I play from ME. I acknowledge the non-linear complex while you engage in unadulterated  simulation.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Twizz089 wrote...
No I insinuated that it is silly for EVERYONE  to be bisexual/gay and to come to this realization later in their lives

How does Kaidan -or- Ashley, Garrus, Jacob, Tali, Miranda, Thane, Jack, and Liara (actually we won't count her because she already likes Shepard no matter what) account for everyone?

And while we're on this logic train, how is it realistic for three out of four of my female squadmates all to have crushes on my male Shepard?

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 10 août 2011 - 04:06 .