25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Dayshadow]

Erani wrote...

Ohhh com'on guys, I can't believe we didn't think of this earlier!!!

Well, now you know. Problem solved. Glad I could help.

[Dapper Pomegranate]

SennenScale wrote...

So, back on topic.Onto implementation. If old squaddies become open to same sex romances, what would be the best way for them to explain why they didn't come out to your earlier?

Obviously, for a Liara/Kelly romancing Shepard, they can say "Well, you were taken!"
Kaidan does assume Shepard is straight if Shepard's female, so it could easily be extended to male Shepard. Other LIs can also say "I thought you were straight" if you have a Bisexual Shepard.

More ideas?

Ideas, hm? Well, if Bioware felt like being overly political and flamebaity, DADT could have been reinstated in 2159 so the VS said nothing in ME1 out of fear of being discharged. Now that everyone's a spectre in ME3, there would be no worries.

I don't see it happening though, nor would I want it to happen like that. More likely than not, they'll go with "I didn't know you liked dudes." Though how Kaidan didn't notice Shep's utter lack of interest in Liara and Ash I'll never know.

Modifié par FrozenFire42, 15 juin 2011 - 04:21 .

[Siansonea]

SennenScale wrote...

So, back on topic.Onto implementation. If old squaddies become open to same sex romances, what would be the best way for them to explain why they didn't come out to your earlier?

Obviously, for a Liara/Kelly romancing Shepard, they can say "Well, you were taken!"
Kaidan does assume Shepard is straight if Shepard's female, so it could easily be extended to male Shepard. Other LIs can also say "I thought you were straight" if you have a Bisexual Shepard.

More ideas?

I think it should be different depending on the LI. And it should fit with that character's established personality, and not directly contradict previous things stated by the character UNLESS they acknowledge it directly. If Jack, for instance, is opened up, then she needs to clarify her "girl's club" statement, even if it's just "Whatever Shepard, you into me or not?" Jack doesn't explain herself, and she's confrontational, so she should carry that with her regardless. Kaidan is forthcoming if you draw him out, but he doesn't "overshare", so he should carry that with him. Ash is very direct, and so she should be similarly direct if she's a s/s LI. Miranda is enigmatic and elusive, so she could easily be just as elusive when addressing this issue. Thane—I don't know. Garrus—I don't know. Tali—I don't know. Jacob—I don't know.

[Dapper Pomegranate]

CaptainIsabela wrote...

I am hoping she sits Amelia Shepard down and tries to explain, and my Shep finds it ever so cute so just goes in to kiss her. Ash, surprised and taken-aback stops..looks at Shep..and lights dim (or not for this game, I hope)

There..how is that for you?

Zomg, interrupt option to initiate romance! Only pink with a heart instead of paragon or renegade so as not to cause ninjamancing.

[SennenScale]

Love the ideas so far, guys. Romance interrupts and a unique explanation for every LI that is IC should cut down on both ninjamancing and complaints about all-generic bisexual romances.

[shepskisaac]

Dayshadow wrote...
I think it is pretty clear that those characters are heterosexual. To expect characters to make unnecessary and out of the blue declarations of their heterosexuality would be absurd. Their actions tell us enough. In the case of Jack, she actually does specify her lack of interest in the female sex. Even then people continue to apply these mental gymnastics to come to their desired, albeit flawed, conclusions. Miranda could have revealed her interest in femshep just as easily as she does with maleshep. Thane could have just as easily revealed his interest in maleshep, but he doesn't.

I understand that you may personally desire everyone to be bisexual  for your own personal delight, but if you were truly honest with yourself I think we could agree that you want Bioware to retcon certain characters sexual orientation. 

In order to retcon something it has to be established in the first place. The same way you say I personally desire everyone to be bisexual (which I don't) I can say you personally want everyone to be heterosexual. The fact is the majority of ME characters never specified their particular desires or denied other ones. Obviously not every one of these character is bisexual and nobody wants everysingle one of them to be, that would be unrealistic. But some could easily be, like Kaidan who makes exactly the same scene on Horizon to ManShep as he does to (un-romanced) FemShep. If it's clear in the un-romanced FemShep conversation that he has hidden feelings for her, it's also clear he has for ManShep since he says the same things.

Furthermore like I said earlier, he has a reason not to reveal his interest in ManShep - he thinks ManShep is straight. It's already part of the story, he says to FemShep that he didn't realize she was interested in the same gender when Shep's sexual orientation is brought up after she gets involved with Liara in ME1. ManShep has no option in the first game to get involved in a gay romance so his sexual orientation is never brought up and Kaidan continues to assume ManShep is straight. And obviously since he thinks that, he won't hit on ManShep because. Why would he hit on someone he thinks is straight thus has no chance with by default? Really simple.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 15 juin 2011 - 04:27 .

[Siansonea]

@Dayshadow: Review the original post of this thread. I repeat, review the original post. If you continue to try to derail the topic, I will have to take steps to ensure that the thread gets back on track.

[Siansonea]

@Isaac: Please don't respond to others' attempts to derail the topic. I completely get where you're coming from, but trying to debate the "retcon" issue has never gotten us anywhere but locked.

[shepskisaac]

SennenScale wrote...

So, back on topic.Onto implementation. If old squaddies become open to same sex romances, what would be the best way for them to explain why they didn't come out to your earlier?

Obviously, for a Liara/Kelly romancing Shepard, they can say "Well, you were taken!"
Kaidan does assume Shepard is straight if Shepard's female, so it could easily be extended to male Shepard. Other LIs can also say "I thought you were straight" if you have a Bisexual Shepard.

More ideas?

"I thought you were straight" for Kaidan since well, it's already part of the story that he assumes Shep is straight.

Siansonea II wrote...

@Isaac: Please don't respond to
others' attempts to derail the topic. I completely get where you're
coming from, but trying to debate the "retcon" issue has never gotten us
anywhere but locked. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie]

Understood and sorry

Modifié par IsaacShep, 15 juin 2011 - 04:31 .

[Dayshadow]

IsaacShep wrote...

Dayshadow wrote...
Everyone can romance who they want already. If I wanted to romance Garrus or Thane I'd play a femshep. If I want to romance Miranda or Tali I play a maleshep. Some people want to romance Joker, Anderson, EDI in a android body, the asari councilor, Mordin, Hackett, etc. etc.  Where does it end? At what point do the developers just concentrate on making a great game and not an intergalactic dating simulator. Why can't they just make deep characters and maximize their dialog instead to sacrificing resources so that a handful of people can enjoy their  choice of virtual blow up dolls.

Yeah let's remove FemShep since everyone could just play ManShep. Same logic.

I never said anything about removing romances or not including homosexual romances. What I was trying to get across was that each character should be well thought out and defined. Some characters may be gay and some straight. But there should not be two sexuality paths of dialog for every character, when that second line could have been devoted toward more mutual content.

I'd rather there were gay romances where there was a mutaul path and then a gay romance path. That character is gay and cannot be romanced by the opposite sex. Instead of wasting resources making another heterosexual path and taking out other romance neutral dialog, they just keep it simple. One gripe I have with ME is the lack of conversation compared to the length of the game. Not to mention the sheer absurdity of a 100% bisexual crew.  I could be wrong, but I don't think the point of ME is to bang everything that moves. If you are gay and like someone who is straight then that relationship is not going to work out. I don't see why this is so hard for people to deal with.

[ZehnWaters]

Erani wrote...

Ohhh com'on guys, I can't believe we didn't think of this earlier!!! I mean, we can romance whomever we want as long as we change our Shepard's gender!! 
Only "straight" Shepards get "virtual blow up dolls" YEY! 

I know, right?   Seriously though, every LI is supposed to be potentially bi-sexual just so we can romance them?  That's just silly.  Not everyone is Bi-Sexual in the universe (except Asari), or did they just all happen to be on our crew?

[Siansonea]

IsaacShep wrote...

SennenScale wrote...

So, back on topic.Onto implementation. If old squaddies become open to same sex romances, what would be the best way for them to explain why they didn't come out to your earlier?

Obviously, for a Liara/Kelly romancing Shepard, they can say "Well, you were taken!"
Kaidan does assume Shepard is straight if Shepard's female, so it could easily be extended to male Shepard. Other LIs can also say "I thought you were straight" if you have a Bisexual Shepard.

More ideas?

"I thought you were straight" for Kaidan since well, it's already part of the story that he assumes Shep is straight.

I think it could go several ways with Kaidan and Miranda, they're the most reserved characters. And Shepard might (or might not...) be their first same-sex partner, in which case it would make sense if it took Shepard dying and two years of introspection for Kaidan to realize "I really loved that man" and the Suicide Mission and telling TIM to GTFO for Miranda to realize "I really love that woman".

[Erani]

^ Ooooohh guys I love the romance interrupt idea! As long as it's got more than 5 seconds to click. Imagine the rage if you are not paying attention and miss it! hahahahahaha

@Sian, yes sorry It's true, let's stay on topic. I'm guilty of replaying to derailers as well. Sorry!

[jeweledleah]

why are people so stuck at the notion of characters HAVING to harbor a secret crush on their shepards but being to afraid to reveal it? seriously, its out of character for every single one of the LI's we have so far. all LI's in ME2 but Tali, are not initially interested in Shepard. Shepard has to express interest first and encourage reciprocal interest from them. I'm more familiar with femshep romances, so I'll use them as an example. when you hit on Garrus - he's surprised. he doens't concider femshep in that light, but he trusts her enough to give their tie breaker a go. and as he starts examining his emotions and as femshep keeps coming by - its only then his feelings grow into something more. Jacob - he outright tells you that he hasn't considered you that way, but you are starting to get to him, he cannot resist you.  a lot of the issues with ME1 ninjamancing stemed from LI's expressing interest first (in oposite sex shepards only and very obviously, which suggests that they weren't atracted to same sex shepard at the time)

so if previous LI's end up being expanded, why are you so stuck on the idea "they didn't because they though shepard was straight" ? there are no indication of attraction to same sex shepard on part any of the LI's with exception of Tali. none. so IMO, it would be more believable to have a scenario where instead of harboring a secret crush like a teenager, they just didn't see Shepard in a romantic way, until Shepard puts that idea into their head.

and this way, you kill 2 birds with one stone. people who want to remain bro's - get to do so by simply avoiding romantic dialogue, and people who wish to romance the characters - get to encourage development of further, less bro like feelings. you keep romantic involvements in players hands and you avoid ninjamancing completely, WHILE preserving continuity of previous games.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 15 juin 2011 - 04:43 .

[Siansonea]

Dayshadow wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Dayshadow wrote...
Everyone can romance who they want already. If I wanted to romance Garrus or Thane I'd play a femshep. If I want to romance Miranda or Tali I play a maleshep. Some people want to romance Joker, Anderson, EDI in a android body, the asari councilor, Mordin, Hackett, etc. etc.  Where does it end? At what point do the developers just concentrate on making a great game and not an intergalactic dating simulator. Why can't they just make deep characters and maximize their dialog instead to sacrificing resources so that a handful of people can enjoy their  choice of virtual blow up dolls.

Yeah let's remove FemShep since everyone could just play ManShep. Same logic.

I never said anything about removing romances or not including homosexual romances. What I was trying to get across was that each character should be well thought out and defined. Some characters may be gay and some straight. But there should not be two sexuality paths of dialog for every character, when that second line could have been devoted toward more mutual content.

I'd rather there were gay romances where there was a mutaul path and then a gay romance path. That character is gay and cannot be romanced by the opposite sex. Instead of wasting resources making another heterosexual path and taking out other romance neutral dialog, they just keep it simple. One gripe I have with ME is the lack of conversation compared to the length of the game. Not to mention the sheer absurdity of a 100% bisexual crew.  I could be wrong, but I don't think the point of ME is to bang everything that moves. If you are gay and like someone who is straight then that relationship is not going to work out. I don't see why this is so hard for people to deal with.

Everyone has their opinion about what is and what is not realistic. You have expressed yours, and others have expressed differing ones. Ultimately it's up to each person to decide what they would most prefer, and THAT is what we are really discussing here, not the "validity"—or lack thereof—of others' viewpoints.

[Siansonea]

jeweledleah wrote...

why are people so stuck at the notion of characters HAVING to harbor a secret crush on their shepards but being to afraid to reveal it? seriously, its out of character for every single one of the LI's we have so far. all LI's in ME2 but Tali, are not initially interested in Shepard. Shepard has to express interest first and encourage reciprocal interest from them. I'm more familiar with femshep romances, so I'll use them as an example. when you hit on Garrus - he's surprised. he doens't concider femshep in that light, but he trusts her enough to give their tie breaker a go. and as he starts examining his emotions and as femshep keeps coming by - its only then his feelings grow into something more. Jacob - he outright tells you that you haven't considered you that way, but you are starting to get to him, he cannot resist you.  a lot of the issues with ME1 ninjamancing stemed from LI's expressing interest first (in oposite sex shepards only and very obviously, which suggests that they weren't atracted to same sex shepard at the time)

so if previous LI's end up being expanded, why are you so stuck on the idea "they didn't because they though shepard was straight" ? there are no indication of attraction to same sex shepard on part any of the LI's with exception of Tali. none. so IMO, it would be more believable to have a scenario where instead of harboring a secret crush like a teenager, they just didn't see Shepard in a romantic way, until Shepard puts that idea into their head.

and this way, you kill 2 birds with one stone. people who want to remain bro's - get to do so by simply avoiding romantic dialogue, and people who wish to romance the characters - get to encourage development of further, less bro like feelings. you keep romantic involvements in players hands and you avoid ninjamancing completely, WHILE preserving continuity of previous games.

I like this. But I also think that a secret crush isn't categorically a horrible idea. It could be done well if it isn't pushed too hard. A light crush is fine, but nothing too Twilight-ey. I can't see previously un-romanced Kaidan or Ash carrying a torch for dead Shepard for two years, but I could imagine the thought having crossed their minds at some point, but their primary attachment to Shepard being based on respect and friendship that could—under certain circumstances—grow into something more. Or not. I am not hung up on the idea of existing characters as s/s LIs, I think I'd be just as happy with existing characters like Joker and Kelly (expanded to be a 'real' LI). Or all-new characters like James Vega and New Girl As Yet Unnamed.

[Dayshadow]

IsaacShep wrote...

In order to retcon something it has to be established in the first place.

I'm not going to have this conversation with you. I believe you are simply rationalizing the situation to accomodate your persoanl desire. Clearly, I'm not going to convince you otherwise and furthermore I don't think I need to convince you. I suspect you are already aware of your motivations and use of absurd illogic.

With femshep or maleshep Kaidan has the same non-romance cutscene dialog and he obviously has feelings toward her; therefore, Kaidan is bisexual because those obvious feelings transcend gender? I'm not even going to get into how nothing is quite so obvious (or any other number of problems with that statement), but I think you get my point.

 With that being said, I respectfully agree to disagree. 

[Eternal Dust]

CaptainIsabela wrote...

FrozenFire42 wrote...

CaptainIsabela wrote...

I am hoping she sits Amelia Shepard down and tries to explain, and my Shep finds it ever so cute so just goes in to kiss her. Ash, surprised and taken-aback stops..looks at Shep..and lights dim (or not for this game, I hope)

There..how is that for you?

Zomg, interrupt option to initiate romance! Only pink with a heart instead of paragon or renegade so as not to cause ninjamancing.

Ooh, an interupt option would work for me

So what special button would that get assigned to?

[Dapper Pomegranate]

Dayshadow wrote...

I could be wrong, but I don't think the point of ME is to bang everything that moves.

 lolwut? Have we been playing the same game?

(I kid, of course, just to clarify)

 If you are gay and like someone who is straight then that relationship is not going to work out.

Like I've said before, if they keep Kaidan straight I still want my gay Manshep to tell Kaidan he's crazy about him, even if he shuts Shep down.

Modifié par FrozenFire42, 15 juin 2011 - 04:52 .

[shepskisaac]

jeweledleah wrote...
why are you so stuck on the idea "they didn't because they though shepard was straight" ?

Urhm because for Kaidan it's already part of the story. Don't you remember when he says it when FemShep's oriantation is revealed after she gets involved with Liara? you say there wasn't any sign of attraction and why would there be (with Kaidan)? He thinks Shepard is straight = he thinks he has no chance with Shepard since straight guys don't want other guys. It's really simple. Also, as for absolutely no signs of attraction. The Horizon scene is a huge sign of unspoken feelings finally revealed in anger when it comes to Kaidan, for both un-romanced FemShep and ManShep (he says the same thing to both). His words are only slighty different than in the case of consumed romance with FemShep. The tone, anger, everything else is the same in all cases. This scene shows more signs of his attraction than any high-school pick-up line could. Not to mention Tali in ME1 didn't even have that, yet she was written as having exactly 'unspoken feelings' in ME2.

Dayshadow wrote...
With that being said, I respectfully agree to disagree.

So do I, civil conversation like this one never hurt anyone yet 

Modifié par IsaacShep, 15 juin 2011 - 04:52 .

[SennenScale]

@Jeweledleah
I'd prefer variance. Some characters might have harbored crushes, and some might never have given it any thought till Shepard brought it up.

I honestly don't want it to be a big deal either. Why should someone have to explain why they're bisexual? I just wanted to bring the thread back on track and I don't think secret crushes are bad in themselves. I suffer from one IRL that went completely unknown by my eight friends for 8 years, so it's not totally unimaginable.

[Siansonea]

FrozenFire42 wrote...

Dayshadow wrote...

I could be wrong, but I don't think the point of ME is to bang everything that moves.

 lolwut? Have we been playing the same game?

(I kid, of course, just to clarify)

 If you are gay and like someone who is straight then that relationship is not going to work out.

Like I've said before, if they keep Kaidan straight I still want my gay Manshep to tell Kaidan he's crazy about him, even if he shuts Shep down.

I want this! I want Shep to be able to flirt with anyone, and get shut down constantly. But not just because of gender. I think there should be instances where the genders and sexuality match up just fine, but something else is the dealbreaker (like Shepard being a total douche or a total goody-two-shoes).