25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Servo to the bitter end]

Clonedzero wrote...
]i already said this, but two wrongs dont make a right.
just because they were dumb and caved in to the fanservice in ME2 doesnt mean they have to continue down that path in ME3.

making everyone bi is a waste of resources since theres already a ton of romances, they'd have to record each romance multiple times. having 10 characters all be super attracted to shepard breaks immersion. so its just not really a good idea to do the "everyone is bi" route of DA2, it worked in DA2 since there was only 4 of them. with the 10+ in mass effect thats a ridiculous amount of content to write, record, and put into the game where a majority of people wont see it (since you can only do one romance)

so from a writing and buisness perspective it makes alot more sense to just have a couple s/s romances, makes the most sense. so if they're doing a couple s/s romances, wouldnt it be a good idea to use the ones that make the most sense? the ones that the average person can look at and go "oh well that makes sense i can believe that".

yeah, technically they could go down the route of " theres more to relationships than physical attraction and sex" "there are ways they could make the relationship work" ect. yeah, its all possible. the real question is, should they bother working on such a weird and awkward relationship that wont make sense to most people?

they are a company that is trying to make money. developing romances in the game costs money. so shouldnt they focus on ones that would resonate the most with the fans?

i havent heard a reason for them to be in the game other than "why not?" and theres alot of good reasons why not to.

If you think that Tali and Garrus are "weird and awkward" to most people, I do believe you're forgetting why they were added in the first place.

And I think you'll find that making all love interests romanceable by both sexes is absolutely the best, most cost-effective, least resource intensive way of implementing it. You're guaranteed to make the majority of players happy if they can pursue their character of choice. Consider DAO. If I'm playing a female warden, and I don't like Leliana (I don't), I'm SOL. If everyone was available, I'm happy!

All that being said, I still think the relationships in DA2, with rivalmances and inclusiveness, are the best in any Bioware game, hands down. I hope they're half as good in ME3. As compelling as all the ME characters are, I think the romances, thus far, have pretty much sucked.

Modifié par TommyServo, 10 août 2011 - 07:30 .

[Clonedzero]

TommyServo wrote...


If you think that Tali and Garrus are "weird and awkward" to most people, I do believe you're forgetting why they were added in the first place.

cherry picking my fairly long post eh? classy.

[Jademoon121]

gamer_girl wrote...

Jademoon121 wrote...

Aren't Quarians a semi-endangered alien species that live in close-knit, communist environments so sterile that a simple cut in an alien atmosphere could give them a severe allergic reaction at best? Sorry, but Tali dating any Shep just breaks lore in of itself.

Explanation please. Just because that's the way quarians are does not mean that is how Tali is. She wanted to remain loyal to the fleet, yet they tried her for treason. And who else other than Shepard comes to defend her in her time of need, not just in the trial but helping her during her pilgrimage also. She became attracted not because he is human, or because she wanted to bang him or anything like that - but because he was her knight in shining armour.

Edit:
Also Shep helped comfort her in her time of sorrow when she discovered that her father had died.

She's also the daughter of a high ranking member of the Admiralty Board who was devoted on giving the Quarians a world of their own. From ME, Tali lets you know that since birth, she's been in the shadow of her father which is partially why she's so skilled with tech along with having a degree of personal responsibility. She's aware that she might take his place on the Board when the Reaper Crises is over, especially when you clear her of charges. She can't be with a human, and serve the entire Quarian species at once. The only reason why she joins Shepherd after her Pilgrimage was the threat the Collecters where posing to the Flotilla.

Shepherd helps everyone out, and I mean everyone. I cannot count on how many times I've brought my other companions out of the pits of depression they've built for themselves. Does that mean that they should romance me?

Modifié par Jademoon121, 10 août 2011 - 07:33 .

[Maugrim]

Jademoon121 wrote...

Shepherd helps everyone out, and I mean everyone. I cannot count on how many times I've brought my other companions out of the pits of depression they've built for themselves. Does that mean that they should romance me?

Yes!

[Abispa]

Twizz089 wrote...

There is a difference, I shouldnt have to tell you want it is. Memebers of the gay community on this forum want their voices heard, thats fine, they want repersentation that is also fine.  But you should not be so eager to settle for the first hack job solution of making every character in the game Bi that has been tossed at them.  Bioware could and should be using unique traits like a person;s sexuality to develop better characters, instead they have opted for the cheaper easier solution (even the lines are recycled) and people are ok with that.  I want immersion, and unique characters that function in the world without my character telling them how to think and feel, Im sorry you are fine with a band aid solution that shallows out the gameplay and lacks depth.

Wow, I guess the gay and bi ME fans should feel honored to have you explain to them HOW they should play their games and WHAT it is they should really want in a fictional video game romance.

I am a hetersexual male who supports s/s options, even with preexisting characters. It does not effect MY game unless I CHOOSE to make a gay or bi Shepard. And the "bi" option, not for all characters but for most/all LIs is as much for "us" as it is for "them" since it allows "us" to romance a character we like who may have been gay only. It also frees the writers from having to deal with how "gay" or "straight" a character should be to please their targeted group. This way everyone romances who they want.

And we're not even sure if that's how ME3 is going to handle it.

There is NO WAY IN HELL ANY romance will meet the standard of realism you say we should expect from s/s romances. And I would be totally POed if Bioware did use an epic amount of resources to develop these epic, realistic romances instead of focusing on such things as, oh, I don't know, blowing crap up and killing aliens with guns.

I hate to be presumptive, since you do it so well, but WE want a cool FPS RPG with fun LIs, while YOU apparently want Bioware to spend all their time developing a multi-layered realistic romantic dating simulator set in space. I'm not saying that can't be cool. Well, for you anyway. Personally, when I'm not at work, home sick on the computer, or playing the game, I leave the house and find my own realism.

[gamer_girl]

Clonedzero wrote...

TommyServo wrote...


If you think that Tali and Garrus are "weird and awkward" to most people, I do believe you're forgetting why they were added in the first place.

cherry picking my fairly long post eh? classy.

Not really. What TommyServo said is pretty valid. With the logic of saying they should scrap relationships that won't make sense to some people, they'd have to scrap all of them. There will always be people who don't understand certain relationships. All a matter of perspective.

[Twizz089]

jlb524 wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...

There is a difference, I shouldnt have to tell you want it is. Memebers of the gay community on this forum want their voices heard, thats fine, they want repersentation that is also fine.  But you should not be so eager to settle for the first hack job solution of making every character in the game Bi that has been tossed at them.  Bioware could and should be using unique traits like a person;s sexuality to develop better characters, instead they have opted for the cheaper easier solution (even the lines are recycled) and people are ok with that.  I want immersion, and unique characters that function in the world without my character telling them how to think and feel, Im sorry you are fine with a band aid solution that shallows out the gameplay and lacks depth.

You are not understanding that the 'straight community' has been settling for 'hack jobs' for years when it comes to romances being generic and not taking anything specific about the PC into account, recycling lines.  BW has always used 'band aid' solutions to romances instead of taking personality, class, race, morality, personal history etc. into consideration.

You act like the het-only romances avoid these issues when they don't...at all.  We want the same amount of 'crappy' choices that the others have always gotten

Again, you are only making this an issue about s/s romances when that isn't really the case.

*Waves*  Here I am a member of the "straight community" asking for better romances across the board.  I take an issue with this approach to  s/s romances because instead of using something as powerful as sexuallity to help further define characters, they are making them even more simplified.  Bioware has a chance to make better characters, and more unique characters with unique dialogue, if their answer is to simply reuse dialogue they have failed to capitalise on the uniquness that is a person's sexuality.  You and are are on the same side, we both want improvement to the in game romance system, you are just willing to settle with the first, and cheapest soultion that gets thrown your way... I am not.

[Servo to the bitter end]

I composed my thoughts and edited while he was typing that. My apologies for appearing to cherry-pick. I edit rather than post multiple responses.

[Jademoon121]

Twizz089 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...

There is a difference, I shouldnt have to tell you want it is. Memebers of the gay community on this forum want their voices heard, thats fine, they want repersentation that is also fine.  But you should not be so eager to settle for the first hack job solution of making every character in the game Bi that has been tossed at them.  Bioware could and should be using unique traits like a person;s sexuality to develop better characters, instead they have opted for the cheaper easier solution (even the lines are recycled) and people are ok with that.  I want immersion, and unique characters that function in the world without my character telling them how to think and feel, Im sorry you are fine with a band aid solution that shallows out the gameplay and lacks depth.

You are not understanding that the 'straight community' has been settling for 'hack jobs' for years when it comes to romances being generic and not taking anything specific about the PC into account, recycling lines.  BW has always used 'band aid' solutions to romances instead of taking personality, class, race, morality, personal history etc. into consideration.

You act like the het-only romances avoid these issues when they don't...at all.  We want the same amount of 'crappy' choices that the others have always gotten

Again, you are only making this an issue about s/s romances when that isn't really the case.

*Waves*  Here I am a member of the "straight community" asking for better romances across the board.  I take an issue with this approach to  s/s romances because instead of using something as powerful as sexuallity to help further define characters, they are making them even more simplified.  Bioware has a chance to make better characters, and more unique characters with unique dialogue, if their answer is to simply reuse dialogue they have failed to capitalise on the uniquness that is a person's sexuality.  You and are are on the same side, we both want improvement to the in game romance system, you are just willing to settle with the first, and cheapest soultion that gets thrown your way... I am not.

Sexuality is so minute of a detial. Most GLBT folk don't define themselves by their sexuality. Believe it or not, this is the last thing most gays and bisexuals want.

[gamer_girl]

Jademoon121 wrote...

She's also the daughter of a high ranking member of the Admiralty Board who was devoted on giving the Quarians a world of their own. From ME, Tali lets you know that since birth, she's been in the shadow of her father which is partially why she's so skilled with tech along with having a degree of personal responsibility. She's aware that she might take his place on the Board when the Reaper Crises is over, especially when you clear her of charges. She can't be with a human, and serve the entire Quarian species at once. The only reason why she joins Shepherd after her Pilgrimage was the threat the Collecters where posing to the Flotilla.

Shepherd helps everyone out, and I mean everyone. I cannot count on how many times I've brought my other companions out of the pits of depression they've built for themselves. Does that mean that they should romance me?

You underestimate how love works. If they had to, I'm sure Shep would be for a long distance thing (for the most part), and I'm certain Tali would. She is very emotional and very attached to Shep and would probably do anything to stay with him (even possibly give the role of running the quarian fleet to someone else - possibly Kal Reager). You also forget that other characters are not the same as Tali. She is so used to terrible treatment from other species as all quarians no doubt are that she saw Shepard as something very unique. She gets attached very easily to that kind of positive attention at least from what I've seen. Not to mention he risked his life to save her on Haestrom. That's the kind of thing Tali doesn't take lightly.

[Johnny34]

Same sex...not exactly my thing but i'm interested in seeing how Bioware handles it.

[Jademoon121]

gamer_girl wrote...

Jademoon121 wrote...

She's also the daughter of a high ranking member of the Admiralty Board who was devoted on giving the Quarians a world of their own. From ME, Tali lets you know that since birth, she's been in the shadow of her father which is partially why she's so skilled with tech along with having a degree of personal responsibility. She's aware that she might take his place on the Board when the Reaper Crises is over, especially when you clear her of charges. She can't be with a human, and serve the entire Quarian species at once. The only reason why she joins Shepherd after her Pilgrimage was the threat the Collecters where posing to the Flotilla.

Shepherd helps everyone out, and I mean everyone. I cannot count on how many times I've brought my other companions out of the pits of depression they've built for themselves. Does that mean that they should romance me?

You underestimate how love works. If they had to, I'm sure Shep would be for a long distance thing (for the most part), and I'm certain Tali would. She is very emotional and very attached to Shep and would probably do anything to stay with him (even possibly give the role of running the quarian fleet to someone else - possibly Kal Reager). You also forget that other characters are not the same as Tali. She is so used to terrible treatment from other species as all quarians no doubt are that she saw Shepard as something very unique. She gets attached very easily to that kind of positive attention at least from what I've seen. Not to mention he risked his life to save her on Haestrom. That's the kind of thing Tali doesn't take lightly.

Except long distance relationships don't work...espeically when one's out killing Eldritch Robots and Mutated Space-Atlanteans, while the other is trying to help a refugee population the size of a country afloat while being pestered by slavers, bandits, and red tape from the Citadel. Maybe it will work out, maybe it won't, but the surivial of your very species is kinda more important than personal affection. Love is selfish after all.

Modifié par Jademoon121, 10 août 2011 - 07:42 .

[Clonedzero]

TommyServo wrote...

If you think that Tali and Garrus are "weird and awkward" to most people, I do believe you're forgetting why they were added in the first place.

And I think you'll find that making all love interests romanceable by both sexes is absolutely the best, most cost-effective, least resource intensive way of implementing it. You're guaranteed to make the majority of players happy if they can pursue their character of choice. Consider DAO. If I'm playing a female warden, and I don't like Leliana (I don't), I'm SOL. If everyone was available, I'm happy!

All that being said, I still think the relationships in DA2, with rivalmances and inclusiveness, are the best in any Bioware game, hands down. I hope they're half as good in ME3. As compelling as all the ME characters are, I think the romances, thus far, have pretty much sucked.

DA2. isabella, fenris, anders, merril. 4
DA:O alistair, morrigan, leliana, zevran. 4

Mass Effect. miranda, ashley, kaidan, garrus, tali, thane, jacob, jack, liara, kelly, (been stated there are full new romances, meaning  2 or more). 10-12+

dont you see the difference in sheer bulk? making them ALL bi, even if you try really hard to recycle lines, you're going to have to do ALOT more writing and recording, and it will result in really bad romances for everyone.

i think everyone can agree we all want higher quality romances in general. quality vs. quanitity. hell i dont think its wise to add in new romance characters either, theres already too many.

my argument isnt against s/s romances at all. i'm saying write good romances and focus on the characters that can have the best written s/s romances with the least amount of "well i gotta take immuno-boosters and we gotta clean room blah blah" side convos as possible.

in a perfect world, yeah, everyone would be bi, and it would all have super unique dialogue based on orientation and specifics about your character, ect. but im just trying to be realistic is all.

[jlb524]

Twizz089 wrote...
*Waves*  Here I am a member of the "straight community" asking for better romances across the board. 

Yes, but why target just an s/s romance thread?  You should also bring up your general concerns in the other threads too...go to the Tali thread and tell them their romance is generic, cheap, just a 'band aid' solution b/c it doesn't recognize Shepard's morality, military background, or even how he treated Tali in the past (ME1).

Twizz089 wrote...
I take an issue with this approach to  s/s romances because instead of using something as powerful as sexuallity to help further define characters, they are making them even more simplified. 

I think you over-estimate the power of sexuality in storytelling...it can be in some context but I don't see it as such in this one.  If so, give an example.  There's no indication that homosexuals/bisexuals are repressed or treated differently from heterosexuals, so...who gives a crap if someone is bisexual?  Heterosexual?  I'd say it would seem cheap and unnecessary for them to focus any attention on it and perhaps even offensive to some.  It's similar to how some don't want FemShep treated any differently from MaleShep...they don't want the game to constantly remind them that 'Hey, look!  You are a woman...how cool!'

Twizz089 wrote...
Bioware has a chance to make better characters, and more unique characters with unique dialogue, if their answer is to simply reuse dialogue they have failed to capitalise on the uniquness that is a person's sexuality.  You and are are on the same side, we both want improvement to the in game romance system, you are just willing to settle with the first, and cheapest soultion that gets thrown your way... I am not.

Again, why does it keep coming back to sexuality?  This issue is greater than that, as I keep repeating endlessly.

I just want the same choices that others have in these games.  I think the characters are fine and I don't need dialog unique to 'my' character to enjoy these romances (I do a lot of this in my own 'headcanon').  I don't need the LI to tell the PC how pretty her blue eyes are, etc. 

[Abispa]

@ ClonedZero -- You don't even have to go back that far on this thread to see that just about everyone here doesn't expect or even want all the characters to be "bi" in ME3. ME2 had TOO MANY LIs even for our liking. The general consensus is that no NEW romances will be started with characters who AREN'T full time squad members in ME3. The pretty much takes the ME2-only suicide squad members off the table.

[Twizz089]

Clonedzero wrote...]
DA2. isabella, fenris, anders, merril. 4
DA:O alistair, morrigan, leliana, zevran. 4

Mass Effect. miranda, ashley, kaidan, garrus, tali, thane, jacob, jack, liara, kelly, (been stated there are full new romances, meaning  2 or more). 10-12+

dont you see the difference in sheer bulk? making them ALL bi, even if you try really hard to recycle lines, you're going to have to do ALOT more writing and recording, and it will result in really bad romances for everyone.

i think everyone can agree we all want higher quality romances in general. quality vs. quanitity. hell i dont think its wise to add in new romance characters either, theres already too many.

my argument isnt against s/s romances at all. i'm saying write good romances and focus on the characters that can have the best written s/s romances with the least amount of "well i gotta take immuno-boosters and we gotta clean room blah blah" side convos as possible.

in a perfect world, yeah, everyone would be bi, and it would all have super unique dialogue based on orientation and specifics about your character, ect. but im just trying to be realistic is all.

THIS

[Servo to the bitter end]

Clonedzero wrote...
DA2. isabella, fenris, anders, merril. 4
DA:O alistair, morrigan, leliana, zevran. 4

Mass Effect. miranda, ashley, kaidan, garrus, tali, thane, jacob, jack, liara, kelly, (been stated there are full new romances, meaning  2 or more). 10-12+

dont you see the difference in sheer bulk? making them ALL bi, even if you try really hard to recycle lines, you're going to have to do ALOT more writing and recording, and it will result in really bad romances for everyone.

i think everyone can agree we all want higher quality romances in general. quality vs. quanitity. hell i dont think its wise to add in new romance characters either, theres already too many.

my argument isnt against s/s romances at all. i'm saying write good romances and focus on the characters that can have the best written s/s romances with the least amount of "well i gotta take immuno-boosters and we gotta clean room blah blah" side convos as possible.

in a perfect world, yeah, everyone would be bi, and it would all have super unique dialogue based on orientation and specifics about your character, ect. but im just trying to be realistic is all.

I will say this - knowing full well how popular many of the characters are - the cast of ME2 really needs to be cut in half. Jesus. Too many characters and too many romances. You have that right.

For what it's worth, I'm primarily thinking about ME3, not the series as a whole. There might be 2 new romances with new characters. There might be 2 "new" romances with returning characters as well. I think that these will be confined to your active squad, which has basically been confirmed to not include the majority of previously available squadmembers, many of whom are love interests. I don't doubt that the relationships begun in ME2 will be resolved in some way whether the character is in your squad or not, but I do think that there will be a small number of new "primary" (for lack of a better term) romances from your squad and including these new characters plus Liara and conceivably the Virmire survivor, newly available for S/S romancing if s/he wasn't pursued in the first game.. Or something like that. Either way, a small manageable pool of 4-5 characters who are open to both, a la DA2.

Modifié par TommyServo, 10 août 2011 - 07:54 .

[jwalker]

Twizz089 wrote...


*Waves*  Here I am a member of the "straight community" asking for better romances across the board.  I take an issue with this approach to  s/s romances because instead of using something as powerful as sexuallity to help further define characters, they are making them even more simplified.  Bioware has a chance to make better characters, and more unique characters with unique dialogue, if their answer is to simply reuse dialogue they have failed to capitalise on the uniquness that is a person's sexuality.  You and are are on the same side, we both want improvement to the in game romance system, you are just willing to settle with the first, and cheapest soultion that gets thrown your way... I am not.

How should Kaidan say "I love you, Shepard" to a female Shepard and how should Kaidan say "I love you, Shepard" to a male Shepard ?

[ademska]

@zero

well, because of what we already know about the me3 party makeup - namely, that very few squadmates will be anything more than temporary - in this ideal world where we get all bi options (which isn't going to happen anyway), you would have to trim that list considerably.

the more realistic list of me3 bisexual romance options are the VS, liara, garrus, and tali - 4. which sort of solves that little problem.

Modifié par ademska, 10 août 2011 - 07:56 .

[Clonedzero]

Abispa wrote...

@ ClonedZero -- You don't even have to go back that far on this thread to see that just about everyone here doesn't expect or even want all the characters to be "bi" in ME3. ME2 had TOO MANY LIs even for our liking. The general consensus is that no NEW romances will be started with characters who AREN'T full time squad members in ME3. The pretty much takes the ME2-only suicide squad members off the table.

well thats the thing, i was intitally talking about the alien/human s/s romances since they make little sense and need a whole ton of side explainations and conversations for it to be remotely believable. aside from making every character bi, they should use the best possible choices for the s/s romances if theres just going to be a couple of them.

example: femshep and tali. a HUGE chunk of the romance would end up being the same thing as maleshep and tali. with the whole song and dance explaining that she could get sick/die, that she'll have to take all sorts of medications, ect. ect. is this something they should really waste resources on?

[gamer_girl]

Abispa wrote...

@ ClonedZero -- You don't even have to go back that far on this thread to see that just about everyone here doesn't expect or even want all the characters to be "bi" in ME3. ME2 had TOO MANY LIs even for our liking. The general consensus is that no NEW romances will be started with characters who AREN'T full time squad members in ME3. The pretty much takes the ME2-only suicide squad members off the table.

Exactly. It seems like there's only one person here that thinks having all of them bi is an amazing idea.

[Clonedzero]

ademska wrote...

@zero

well, because of what we already know about the me3 party makeup - namely, that very few squadmates will be anything more than temporary - in this ideal world where we get all bi options (which isn't going to happen anyway), you would have to trim that list considerably.

the more realistic list of me3 bisexual romance options are the VS, liara, garrus, and tali - 4. which sort of solves that little problem.

ME3 bi romance options. VS, liara, vega, unrevealed female squadmate - 4, which sort of solves that little problem.

[Jademoon121]

Clonedzero wrote...

ademska wrote...

@zero

well, because of what we already know about the me3 party makeup - namely, that very few squadmates will be anything more than temporary - in this ideal world where we get all bi options (which isn't going to happen anyway), you would have to trim that list considerably.

the more realistic list of me3 bisexual romance options are the VS, liara, garrus, and tali - 4. which sort of solves that little problem.

ME3 bi romance options. VS, liara, vega, unrevealed female squadmate - 4, which sort of solves that little problem.

That's the most plausible list.