25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Twilight_Princess]

PMC65 wrote...

diskoh wrote...

Since it keeps coming up, I'll make a list of all of the characters who have confirmed their sexual orientation, so we know who shouldn't be retconned.

...

List complete.

You forgot

...

List is now complete.

I’m a supporter of s/s romance so the following is me just trying to articulate problem I have with the “no confirmation” thing on existing squaddies.
I think this would be a good question to ask here but what would be "confirmation" for everyone? What would a squaddie have to say to convince you that they only have interest in only one sex? Does it have to be a blunt statement? "I am 100% into men/women shepard" because it seems that showing preference to only one sex  (making comments in conversation) only being romancable to one sex previously is "not enough". The sensible people who say “so and so seems straight to me" don't mean he or she acts stereotypically hetro , instead they mean they have taken into account that the characters have ONLY shown one kind of preference so far and therefore labelling them straight is a reasonable thing to say at this point.

I don't know if this is a good enough example but here goes. Someone could argue that Liara will eventually prefer one sex over the other because one of them will turn out to be just a phase in time, even though she clearly has shown equal interest in both sexes and this alone should dismiss such a silly accusation. But then that person  could say "Well it's not unheard of that that some bisexuals turn out to be straight/gay so you can't say liara is bisexual because she's never clearly said she liked both genders equally anyway" see what I mean? They’ve ignored clear evidence that she has shown equal interest with no indication of preferring one sex over the other. But they have made an assumption that her sexuality will change or evolve into something else because she hasn't been "clear" enough about what she likes even though her past actions should speak for themselves.
I guess I’m just arguing the case that squaddies don’t have to be so blunt about their preferences to prove they are straight/bi/gay whatever.  

[ElitePinecone]

It's a very subjective area (re: squadmates' sexuality).

The point is that if they're sufficiently ambiguous there's going to be room to write in romances with the same gender if that's what Bioware decides on.

Anything short of "Shepard, I'm only into [x]" is going to leave room for interpretation and space for writers if that's the path they want to go down. Arguing the specifics is a bit of a waste of effort, it'd be far easier to just wait and see what happens.

The time and space in this thread would be better used to discuss ideas and suggestions for new LIs, given that we know they'll be introduced. I for one don't believe Vega is the s/s option, and that obviously requires another character to fill this role.

[78stonewobble]

Hyrule_Gal wrote...
I’m a supporter of s/s romance so the following is me just trying to articulate problem I have with the “no confirmation” thing on existing squaddies.
I think this would be a good question to ask here but what would be "confirmation" for everyone? What would a squaddie have to say to convince you that they only have interest in only one sex? Does it have to be a blunt statement? "I am 100% into men/women shepard" because it seems that showing preference to only one sex  (making comments in conversation) only being romancable to one sex previously is "not enough". The sensible people who say “so and so seems straight to me" don't mean he or she acts stereotypically hetro , instead they mean they have taken into account that the characters have ONLY shown one kind of preference so far and therefore labelling them straight is a reasonable thing to say at this point.

I don't know if this is a good enough example but here goes. Someone could argue that Liara will eventually prefer one sex over the other because one of them will turn out to be just a phase in time, even though she clearly has shown equal interest in both sexes and this alone should dismiss such a silly accusation. But then that person  could say "Well it's not unheard of that that some bisexuals turn out to be straight/gay so you can't say liara is bisexual because she's never clearly said she liked both genders equally anyway" see what I mean? They’ve ignored clear evidence that she has shown equal interest with no indication of preferring one sex over the other. But they have made an assumption that her sexuality will change or evolve into something else because she hasn't been "clear" enough about what she likes even though her past actions should speak for themselves.
I guess I’m just arguing the case that squaddies don’t have to be so blunt about their preferences to prove they are straight/bi/gay whatever.  

I kinda agree on my view on character continuity. The LI's don't have to directly state their sexual preference.

But to least mess with character continuity (IMHO) the best thing would be to just continue with the sex they have shown interest in in the past.

Regarding bi's, I discussed this at great length with my x (who was bi) in an attempt to understand that part of her (and to a certain degree bisexuals in general). I just am very curios regarding what makes other people "tick".

The most important thing to her and what made perfect sense to me was that it was wholly dependent on the person and the love for that person. It overcame the sexuality part.

What also mattered was where she was in life. At certain periods in her life women had appealed more to her and at other times it was men.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 15 juin 2011 - 08:58 .

[Maugrim]

ElitePinecone wrote...

It's a very subjective area (re: squadmates' sexuality). The point is that if they're sufficiently ambiguous there's going to be room to write in romances with the same gender if that's what Bioware decides on.

Anything short of "Shepard, I'm only into [x]" is going to leave room for interpretation and space for writers if that's the path they want to go down Arguing the specifics is a bit of a waste of effort, it'd be far easier to just wait and see what happens.

The time and space in this thread would be better used to discuss ideas and suggestions for new LIs, given that we know they'll be introduced. I for one don't believe Vega is the s/s option, and that obviously requires another character to fill this role.

I bet they still can't get a grasp on this.   The fact that they have to resort to sterotypes and inventing so called "facts" out of nothingness just shows how feeble the anti-s/s arguments are if that's the best they can do.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 15 juin 2011 - 09:03 .

[SennenScale]

Lawful Turian Female and a well written human male would be welcome.

[Comsky159]

Can anyone see an expansion of Kelly's romance constituting one of the S/S options?

Modifié par Comsky159, 15 juin 2011 - 09:17 .

[ElitePinecone]

Comsky159 wrote...

Can anyone see an expansion of Kelly's romance constituting one of the S/S options?

Possibly, but there's no m/m equivalent - and I'm assuming they'd aim to have equal numbers. 

It's all very convoluted. I'm sure Kelly will make an appearance somewhere, though. 

[Syledir]

 I don't see the problem with making old squad members available for s/s romance. Someone used Willow of the Buffy series as an example of how a straight character slowly turned into a gay character. It doesn't have to be about sexuality though. Some people may remember the Sci-Fi Series DS9. One romance in that series was between Kira (a soldier to the core, religious nut, xenophobic) and Odo (space cop, a man of justice and order, considered humanoid mating as messy). Imagine Ashley and Garrus if you want. Both worked on a space station full of aliens. It took them years until both were confortable enough with each other to start a romantic relationship. They were friends and didn't want to jeopardize their friendship. It took one character to die and brought back to live again for the other to throw caution over board and act.

The same could work with Mass Effect 3. So why not Ashley, for example. She and femshep start as friends or comrades. Feelings change and develop. Shepards death COULD be a cataylst for Ashley to come to terms with her feelings (for example). Or years of experience makes those two see each other in a different light. It doesn't have to be love on first sight all the time.

[TexasToast712]

Syledir wrote...
 Shepards death COULD be a cataylst for Ashley to come to terms with her feelings.

You cant come to terms with something that didnt exist in the first place. Ashley isnt into Femshep. PERIOD. Not only that, but her religious views would prevent her from being gay.

[Clonedzero]

TexasToast712 wrote...

Syledir wrote...
 Shepards death COULD be a cataylst for Ashley to come to terms with her feelings.

You cant come to terms with something that didnt exist in the first place. Ashley isnt into Femshep. PERIOD. Not only that, but her religious views would prevent her from being gay.

the religious angle is probably the worst excuse for her not being bi ive heard.

i dont think established characters should be forced into being bi to meet the "s/s romance quota" either, but being religious doesnt mean you cant be bi.

theres TONS of christian churches NOW that openly support gay couples, alot of them even have openly gay priests. go to san fransico they've got dozens of gay churches.

[Aurellia]

TexasToast712 wrote...

You cant come to terms with something that didnt exist in the first place. Ashley isnt into Femshep. PERIOD. Not only that, but her religious views would prevent her from being gay.

Your persistent attempts to derail the thread and trolling have been reported.

Have a nice night...

To the rest of you please don't feed the troll

Modifié par Aurellia, 15 juin 2011 - 10:36 .

[ElitePinecone]

TexasToast712 wrote...

 Not only that, but her religious views would prevent her from being gay.

You're applying 2011 viewpoints onto 2186. 

Sorry, but essentialism and generalisations don't work. If or when you get an encyclopedic insight into the character's motivations, intentions and life experiences, then you can make assumptions about them. 

We have no idea about social, cultural or religious norms in the 22nd century. Until we do, speculation is pointless. 

Edit: I should stop getting sucked into debates. 

On topic:

Kai Leng for m/m would be just about the worst thing evar. D: 

Modifié par ElitePinecone, 15 juin 2011 - 10:39 .

[Shepard Lives]

TexasToast712 wrote...

You cant come to terms with something that didnt exist in the first place. Ashley isnt into Femshep. PERIOD.

Evidence needed. Unless you're one of those "sexuality is a on/off switch that can never be flipped" people, in which case I doubt we can have a discussion.

TexasToast712 wrote...

Not only that, but her religious views would prevent her from being gay.

We don't even know what religion she follows. Only that it's monotheistic.

Since you seem to be assuming she's a Christian, do you seriously think all Christians (and all interpretations of Christianity) are unable to come to terms with homosexuality? I am a staunch atheist and strongly against any kind of organized religion, by the way, but that statement you're making is just plain wrong.

/devil's advocate

[Clonedzero]

ElitePinecone wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

 Not only that, but her religious views would prevent her from being gay.

You're applying 2011 viewpoints onto 2186. 

Sorry, but essentialism and generalisations don't work. If or when you get an encyclopedic insight into the character's motivations, intentions and life experiences, then you can make assumptions about them. 

We have no idea about social, cultural or religious norms in the 22nd century. Until we do, speculation is pointless. 

Edit: I should stop getting sucked into debates. 

On topic:

Kai Leng for m/m would be just about the worst thing evar. D: 

who the hell is kai leng? is he from the comics or something?

and tis not even 2011 viewpoints. lots of christians fully accept gays. sure not many in the biblebelt, but chruches around where i live openly support gay couples and out in california i know they do. plenty of other places as well. hell i have a religious gay cousin? (i dont know how im related to him actually, i only met him a few times at family reunions lol, all i remember is he had a boyfriend and started talking about jesus, once he did that i slipped away lol)

Modifié par Clonedzero, 15 juin 2011 - 10:49 .

[SennenScale]

@Clonedzero
He's from Mass Effect: Retribution. Anti-alien, Cerberus, convict. Enemy in ME3.

Anyway, pretty much anything else would be preferable as an M/M option.


I support a well written human male and maybe one old LI. Whatever Bioware decides for Femshep, though I wish it were Tali, Ash, or a FemTurian.

[TexasToast712]

Aurellia wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

You cant come to terms with something that didnt exist in the first place. Ashley isnt into Femshep. PERIOD. Not only that, but her religious views would prevent her from being gay.

Your persistent attempts to derail the thread and trolling have been reported.

Have a nice night...

To the rest of you please don't feed the troll

Iam not trolling. This is a discussion right? Iam just stating obvious flaws in the arguements of people wanting previous characters to have their sexualities rewritten. Anyways, if trying to have a healthy and civil discussion of something is considered trolling them Iam done with this thread.

Modifié par TexasToast712, 15 juin 2011 - 10:56 .

[Shepard Lives]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Kai Leng for m/m would be just about the worst thing evar. D: 

I dunno, I could see it working as a tsundere kinda thing.
"Shepard, I love you, but I have to kill you, but... god damnit!" *runs away*

[ElitePinecone]

Shepard Lives wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

Kai Leng for m/m would be just about the worst thing evar. D: 

I dunno, I could see it working as a tsundere kinda thing.
"Shepard, I love you, but I have to kill you, but... god damnit!" *runs away*

Apart from the fact that he's evil and has no redeeming qualities (using children as hostages, torture, murder, Cerberus devotee, etc)...

He'd be another "lascivious morally bankrupt unkempt bisexual philanderer", in the vein of Sky from JE, Zev, Leliana, Isabella, etc.

Just once I'd like a s/s option that was relatively stable - not a terrorist, pirate, murderer, thief or vagabond. 

[TexasToast712]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Shepard Lives wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

Kai Leng for m/m would be just about the worst thing evar. D: 

I dunno, I could see it working as a tsundere kinda thing.
"Shepard, I love you, but I have to kill you, but... god damnit!" *runs away*

Apart from the fact that he's evil and has no redeeming qualities (using children as hostages, torture, murder, Cerberus devotee, etc)...

He'd be another "lascivious morally bankrupt unkempt bisexual philanderer", in the vein of Sky from JE, Zev, Leliana, Isabella, etc.

Just once I'd like a s/s option that was relatively stable - not a terrorist, pirate, murderer, thief or vagabond. 

Sounds like Vega will fit that profile. Unless he has mental trauma from his tours of duty. O_O

[Syledir]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Shepard Lives wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

Kai Leng for m/m would be just about the worst thing evar. D: 

I dunno, I could see it working as a tsundere kinda thing.
"Shepard, I love you, but I have to kill you, but... god damnit!" *runs away*

Apart from the fact that he's evil and has no redeeming qualities (using children as hostages, torture, murder, Cerberus devotee, etc)...

He'd be another "lascivious morally bankrupt unkempt bisexual philanderer", in the vein of Sky from JE, Zev, Leliana, Isabella, etc.

Just once I'd like a s/s option that was relatively stable - not a terrorist, pirate, murderer, thief or vagabond. 

Just out or curiostiy. Is that why you prefer Kaidan as a s/s romance option?

[Shepard Lives]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Shepard Lives wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

Kai Leng for m/m would be just about the worst thing evar. D: 

I dunno, I could see it working as a tsundere kinda thing.
"Shepard, I love you, but I have to kill you, but... god damnit!" *runs away*

Apart from the fact that he's evil and has no redeeming qualities (using children as hostages, torture, murder, Cerberus devotee, etc)...

He'd be another "lascivious morally bankrupt unkempt bisexual philanderer", in the vein of Sky from JE, Zev, Leliana, Isabella, etc.

Just once I'd like a s/s option that was relatively stable - not a terrorist, pirate, murderer, thief or vagabond. 

I was kidding. Shoulda put a smiley in there...

Also, my two cents: stable romantic options are boring, regardless of sexual orientation. :happy: If I wanted to have a relationship with someone who's not a thief/pirate/blood mage/convict/genetically engineered bombshell/space chicken, I'd just pick someone in real life (oh such a horrible term for offline activity).

[mopotter]

[quote]IsaacShep wrote...

[quote]Medhia Nox wrote...
As
I "may" be finding my LI for the first time in ME 3 (and I so hope it's that hunk sniping from Big Ben - one can dream) - I actually don't want some trashy sex seen. It's so tired and childish.

I'd be very happy with a confession of love - a kiss - and hell, some sort of dinner scene instead of a sex seen. A final meal before the big fight - that sounds great.

When saving the galaxy is done - we can keep everyone in the Normandy up all night with our wild love-making. But until then - I actually wouldn't mind not having them waste development time on a poorly done screw scene. [/quote]
Not a bad idea but still no  I want the sex scene for my s/s romance period. Would suck if we didn't get it after everyone else did... They can save new 'dinner' approach to romances for ME4 or whatever comes next.

[quote]FrozenFire42 wrote...
It reminded me when someone posted "I am Commander Sheppard and Kaidan Alenko is my favourite power bottom in the galaxy!" in one of the recently closed romance threads hahaha xD [/quote]
Hah! I kind of want to turn that into a sig banner.
[/quote]
lmao me too but I don't think mods would allow xDDD

[/quote]

I'd like the above along with an ME1 type sex scene.  And would actually like two.  One in the middle of the game and one before the final missions.  I don't want to spend the hours before the final battle alone, unless Shepard doesn't have a romance and then I'd like to see Shepard cleaning weapons or meditating or something.

[ElitePinecone]

Syledir wrote...

Just out or curiostiy. Is that why you prefer Kaidan as a s/s romance option?

Partly, but I'd be willing to change if the ME3 option(s) are better. 

It's more a reaction to the idea that all bisexual people must be emotionally challenged or morally bankrupt, had a hard life, experienced trauma etc. 

It'd be nice if we had a grounded character who wasn't a) a promiscuous stereotype a la Isabella, Zev or Leliana crazy and/or traumatised (Sky, Anders, Fenris)

[FKA_Servo]

TexasToast712 wrote...

Iam not trolling. This is a discussion right? Iam just stating obvious flaws in the arguements of people wanting previous characters to have their sexualities rewritten. Anyways, if trying to have a healthy and civil discussion of something is considered trolling them Iam done with this thread.

It's not an obvious flaw though, though I suppose it's all in the way you interpret it. It is a fact that none of these characters have definitively declared their orientation. Not one (except perhaps Shepard). You're inferring that they concretely cannot be bi (or gay) based on what you know about them RE their history and interactions with Shepard.

But the characters can be expanded in this way. I admit that some characters might lend themselves more easily than others, but Bioware has some very good writers, and that's really all it would take. There is nothing in any of the characters histories that would problematically contradict them being a bisexual romance option.

[Syledir]

I've read some other posts on other threads. I've got the impression that some people tend to forget one thing. Ashley would still love only YOUR MShep, even if she would be open to s/s romance in ME3. She would have fallen in love with your MShep in ME1, lost and found him again in ME2 and would (maybe) welcome him back with open arms in ME3. Or do you believe she would say something like: "Oh Shepard, I wish you were a woman." Come on. Have some trust in BioWare. Look at what they have done with Dragon Age 2. All of the LIs made sure that you know that they love your Hawke for who he/she is. Not what gender he/she has. And the little hear icons in the dialogue wheel made sure that there was no ninjamancing. So people who felt uncomfortable with s/s romance could avoid it, easily.

Or is it the knowledge enough that someone, somewhere wants to see a romance between FemShep and Ashley that bothers them so much? Clearly, falling in love with FemShep would turn THEIR beautiful Ashley into something vile and disgusting, right?

Again, romances will be optional. No one will be forced into anything. But every player should have the freedom to have the same choices everyone else does, thus turning a good game in a satisfying experience.